[Patch 3.12] (j/k) Jinx General Discussion - Page 172

nafta

Bulgaria18893 Posts

October 12 2013 09:54 GMT

#3421

On October 12 2013 18:20 Dan HH wrote:
ESL Australia is streaming the WCG China semis on Twitch, also tomorrow's finals

http://www.twitch.tv/esl_australia

When will the finals be played?

KissBlade

United States5718 Posts

October 12 2013 10:00 GMT

#3422

Haha I miss the Australian casters.

nanospartan

649 Posts

October 12 2013 10:01 GMT

#3423

Is it just me or is this lagging bad?

Dan HH

Romania9173 Posts

October 12 2013 10:02 GMT

#3424

On October 12 2013 18:54 nafta wrote:

Show nested quote +

When will the finals be played?

3rd place match at 6:00 CEST tomorrow morning, final 3 hours later. Here's all the known WCG qualifiers schedule with time zone detection: http://esportcalendar.com/index.php?page=tournament&tournamentid=74

Waxangel

United States33553 Posts

October 12 2013 10:22 GMT

#3425

screw thorin, watch waxangel!

Alaric

France45622 Posts

October 12 2013 10:25 GMT

#3426

OhGodthemusic x_x

On October 12 2013 09:34 Ketara wrote:

Show nested quote +

On October 12 2013 09:12 cLutZ wrote:

On October 12 2013 08:48 Alaric wrote:

4) Reduction of her base Attack Speed / Attack Speed per level

(...)

2. By making the Ricochet Attack Speed bonus important to her power, this increases the viability of Cooldown Reduction as a good stat on Sivir. CDR Sivir is a super fun build that I would love to see as an effective alternative to the generic marksmen builds that we traditionally see.

"sup guys, we have no good itemisation options for CDR on marksmen 'cept Zephyr and boots, and we kept Sivir with a shit 20% damage drop per target hit on her Q on top of Ricochet not being able to crit, but we believe CDR Sivir would be a super cool niche to put down AoE damage so we nerfed her single target dps even more* so she can be underwhelming all the time!"
...
The fuck is it with their approach to things.

(And yes, I know brutaliser and its upgrades give cdr, but BC stacks can't be kept on target (need 40% CDR for sub-4s cd and even then you rely on bounce RNG not to screw you, with Q helping you maintain them between the first 2 Q) and the %crit and AS from Ghostblade would be less useful than more AD/ArPen since your goal isn't exactly to auto. So what, Gauntlet?)

* currently you have 30/45/60 AS for 10s straight when you ult, with an higher base AS. With the new ult you'd have 40/60/80 AS for 3 attacks (so around 2-2.5s) every 6 seconds. The AS bonus is stronger, but the base AS and AS/level is weaker, and the downtime is way higher unless fights get really dragged out. Sure, post-6 it's stronger in lane if you trade often rather than all-in. But when you want to go in and [i]fight|/i] and burn your ult it's weaker. And I don't expect Sivir to be splitpushing either.

Edit: additionally, his "I would like to see" is like Xelnath's thread on EUW: "Shard isn't bought often, I'd like to make it cool for supports who want AP, which item active would you like to see on it? It has to be a buff for aliies only".
What is so hard to get in freaking "AP isn't a good stat for supports because you usually give them bad ratios and they prefer CDR and defenses to live to cast more anyway" for God's damn sake!?

They're so fucking stubborn. Plus, this shows one of the main guys in charge of the s4 vision/gold income/support overhaul still has no fucking grasp of what's the issue at hand, if his summary of the huge feedbacks threads didn't make you jaded enough.

I agree with you on Sivir. The Damage drop off is stupid on Q. Should be like 5% per target.

On the supports and AP, I kinda Agree with Xel-Nath, and kinda agree with you. The problem is balancing in 2 directions at once: #1 is reducing AP ratios to kick supports out of midlane, #2. is insisting that they build AP. If you just get rid of #1, and let things like Mid Janna, Lulu, Zyra, etc be viable ALONG with support for those champs, you fix most of the problems with the position. Obviously this all would have to be incorporated into a S4 overhaul.

There are supports who like AP. But nobody plays them because there are no item options for them.

Lux Soraka Janna Zyra Zilean Annielol all have good enough AP ratios to justify AP itemization if there were actually budget AP items for them to be buying.

And then when you look at their values they probably like MPen better anyway, because their bases are better than their ratios with the exception of shields and heals (so Janna and Soraka mostly, although Soraka benefits a lot from MPen if she wants to play aggressive against a short-ranged lane considering her MR reduction). In the end, AP itself really isn't the appealing—I'd say it's the least interesting part of Guise for them, HP as supports and MPen are stronger.

AP doesn't synergise with itself since every point of AP will give you less damage% than the previous one, and MPen (and levels until the skills are maxed) is the only multiplicative stat that works with it, offensively (also DFG but that's a special case). You also want a bunch of AP before it's more effective than MPen, and your budget is too limited to dump so much gold into non-survivability, plus it's easier to get 20% CDR than to get enough AP to reach 20% of the base damage.

Kaal

Djibouti2539 Posts

October 12 2013 10:46 GMT

#3427

Who is iccup blue storm on NA?

1ntrigue

Australia948 Posts

October 12 2013 11:12 GMT

#3428

On October 12 2013 16:49 Lylat wrote:
Putting Uzi in the jungle is the most stupid change ever, any explanation ?

Lucky was a horrible jungler, especially noticeable in Royal, which has quite good laners (except possibly Godlike, who is somewhat mediocre). Jungle is also the role that has the smallest talent pool in China, while adc is China's strongest role, so Uzi must have volunteered.

Dan HH

Romania9173 Posts

October 12 2013 11:36 GMT

#3429

Royal getting rolled by Jax again, they must be having some Worlds flashbacks

turdburgler

England6749 Posts

October 12 2013 11:40 GMT

#3430

On October 12 2013 19:22 Waxangel wrote:
screw thorin, watch waxangel!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbyoX42BhlI

repost. reported for spam.

miicah

Australia2470 Posts

October 12 2013 11:43 GMT

#3431

Is this best lee sin tournament on in 12 hours?

KissBlade

United States5718 Posts

October 12 2013 12:06 GMT

#3432

I really cannot understand how China has such a hard time developing good junglers when they have such a good talent pool of strong laners.

Dandel Ion

Austria17960 Posts

October 12 2013 12:16 GMT

#3433

the fuck royal

Fusilero

United Kingdom50293 Posts

October 12 2013 12:36 GMT

#3434

On October 12 2013 21:06 KissBlade wrote:
I really cannot understand how China has such a hard time developing good junglers when they have such a good talent pool of strong laners.

Well when everyone is awful at reading you get pretty bad at learning how to understand jungle movements. The only two international class junglers are clearlove (troll) and was jing but he retired.
Lovelin is HAM but I wasn't sold on his jungling in LPL worlds held a little bit of the "we never saw this before" for team facing OMG.

CreationSoul

Romania231 Posts

October 12 2013 13:07 GMT

#3435

On October 12 2013 17:49 oneofthem wrote:

Show nested quote +

On October 12 2013 17:11 Letmelose wrote:

On October 12 2013 16:23 oneofthem wrote:

On October 12 2013 15:29 ketchup wrote:
By the way, this unfiltered episode is really great for the LoL World Finals topic. I think Thorin makes some amazing points at times, even if he is a bit long winded. I find the idea of having more for people who are really "hardcore" fans interesting(Official fan clubs by Riot would be pretty interesting for ALL teams, real 5s support that Riot has been promising for years, replays, etc). What Thorin talks about is exactly what sites like TL were built on(and I'm sure a lot of us agree with Thorin at a lot of his points). I would really love to see someone from Riot watch this, and take this seriously. I enjoy all of their views, and they are all very well spoken. Destiny is much better in these types of shows than his streaming, and scoots was much better here than when he used to be on Lo3 when he was a regular there. Near the end, they also discuss casting, which is also pretty interesting. I would sincerely LOVE for Riot to get better observers for next season.

I think it's really worth watching.

On a secondary note, I miss the youtube popout option.

thorin states some very good points about the casual viewer. he didn't manage to engage with the other guys on the show though because they kind of didn't understand him and just addressed oblique points.

wiht the whole casual western audience thing, the way riot has always went about building hype is to artificially keep the western confidence afloat by hype and international locking, so they feel that a decent portion of the viewership feel that their team has a chance. however, when that false impression gets crashed, they feel disappointed.

i think this is the wrong way to go about building hype. instead of artificially inflating the underdog leading to bigger disappointment, they should take underdog status for granted and hype up the invincible enemy. this was how s2 got so hype. people didn't believe tpa had a chance, but that disbelief didn't prevent them from following the team and turning in. the badness and powerful hype of the korean overlord team also didn't discourage people from watching, rather, it just added to the awe of the moment.

if you hype the villain, it's a no lose situation. if the villain wins in dominant fashion, then the hype turns into reality and you get a bunch of new korean fanboys. it's a powerful storyline. worlds is a once a year event, so the NA etc scenes would still survive even if they get beat up one time. if the underdog somehow pulls an upset, then the event is just explosive.

the way they are doing it now created no powerful villain, instead, all the NA fanboys are in denial and frame their stance as "anti-hype," as in they really believe SKT is all hype and overrated etc. it's a passive aggressive viewing experience, rather than a braveheart underdog mentality. when the villain wins it's more about how royals suck rather than the dominant villain being dominant, the story just falls flat.

pro wrestling is all about hyping the villain and rejoicing in the brutal beatdowns. if LOL is the same peddler of drama they should learn from that.

I'm not so sure whether this would solve the problem at all. I mean, how many times would you be able to rehash the same monotonous storyline of "who can challenge the Koreans this time round?" before it gets old? Instead of doing things on the fly, and weaving exciting storyline that suits the occasion every time, you're suggesting that people just go into the tournament banking on that one storyline working out, viewing everything through a narrow, fixed scope based on a very rigid, unflexible storyline. Everything becomes about Koreans, and those who challenged them the most, and it becomes so mundane after a while, because you're already restricting yourself to viewing the tournament in terms of very simplistic, and one dimensional parameters.

Hyping Korean teams, and grouping them up as this unstoppable machine that needs to be overcome, is a quick-fix problem to people who can't deal with the fact that their favourite teams aren't as victorious as they wish to be. There's so much material, and possible storylines that can be created, and focusing on the most base form of competitive viewing of "I hope we win versus them" would be really counter-productive in my opinion. I mean, I understand that a lot of people are having difficulty coming to terms with their prefered teams not being the best, but Riot Gaming's level of focus on trying to appease those people is not only pitiful, but ends up restricting their product to a very base level.

i agree that it's not the perfect solution, but hte situation with league compared to sc2 makes it work somewhat.

first, you have region locking so worlds and all stars are the only few chances in which western teams get beat up. this is different from sc2 where they get beat up in a monotonous and weekly manner. The korean overlord storyline may get tired in sc2, but for lol it just gets revived twice a year, so i think it has more leg to it.

there's no real interaction between the scenes except as a backdrop to the drama, with the koreans forever in the background providing some sort of world framing context. for casual LCS viewers this is not going to make them not watch the NA scene because the daily drama etc will still be there. those people who are interested in the game content are probably already watching OGN. you can then have this semi hostile but still drama creating bickering between the two groups that adds more stuff for people to talk about.

also i think riot's way of presenting the hype just follows the usual pattern of casters presenting a lopsided game. they tend to want to preserve suspense, even false suspense, regardless of how the game is going on. this habit extended onto a tourney format means that they tend to balance the hype between the contenders, and replace storyline with noise. this is a part of catering to casuals, but also a part of how artificial some part of their production can be.

Havinf more international tourneys (maybe 2-3 a year) is the best way to go. Koreans winning everything in SC2 has made lose interest in SC2. LCS must and will remain region-locked.

1ntrigue

Australia948 Posts

October 12 2013 13:23 GMT

#3436

On October 12 2013 21:36 Fusilero wrote:

Show nested quote +

At the same time, Lovelin is integral to OMG's gameplay. He's really the one that gets the map control and lane/objective pressure started and helps their mediocre bot lane survive against Chinese bot lanes. I'd rate Lovelin world class, and I think clearlove/Troll has fallen off a bit as he hasn't transitioned well to utility junglers in S3 imo. Troll used to have such good mechanics and skirmishing instinct that he was a level above everyone else at the end of 2012, but his skill has sadly fallen a lot.

But there's something very wrong with the scene, when you're still talking about one or two junglers in a huge playing population, especially with the low warding meta in China.