On October 11 2013 11:51 Lord Tolkien wrote: On Ahri's single target numbers:
Landing all her spells, she gets 1235+285% AP (1515+365% AP if she gets two rotations of foxfire on a single target) of damage.
Add a DFG proc on top of it and it goes to 15% max HP+1418+326.5% AP (or 15% max HP+1754+422.5% AP) [note it doesn't amplify the true damage, and charm hits before DFG].
Without hitting either an E or a Q, her damage is 775+185% AP (1055+265% with 2 foxfires), and goes up to 15% max HP+930+222% AP (or 15% max HP+1266+318% AP) with a DFG proc.
That's again still pretty damn high, and without landing any skillshots to boot.
Her new numbers are as follows:
Full spell rotation (double proc of W): 1261+280.3% AP (or 1530+357.1% AP)
DFG+Full spell rotation (double proc of W) [charm first]: 18% max HP+1417.8+314.1% AP (18% max HP+1731.7+403.7% AP)
W+R (double proc of W): 644+139% AP (868+203% AP)
DFG+W+R (double proc of W): 15% max HP+772.8+166.8%AP (15% max HP+1041+243.6% AP)
In other words, in single target situations her damage is roughly comparable if she lands her shit (slightly higher base for slightly lower ratios), while not landing charm or Q nerfs her damage significantly, same with a DFG (slightly lower ratios, basically same base damage), while her damage without landing her skillshots has dropped significantly.
Looking at the numbers, you could probably tweak her so that her E also applies on the true damage portion of Q (and maybe ignite), which would ensure that her full combo rotational damage increases as a whole, but in general, her AP ratio remains pretty nuts compared to, say, Lux (a combo of 1190+205% AP).
In general though, it does punish bad Ahri's who don't land charms or Qs, so I'm all for the change.
The big misconception here is that you believe a good ahri player is someone that lands skillshots. For most champions this really isn't the case. This is true for thresh/blitzcrank, and rightfully so imo because they are supports who should scale off their skills landing than actual AP, but this isn't true for pretty much everyone else. A good ahri player is someone who knows the limits of their champion, knows how to lane, how to harass, how to position their orb of deception to get its true damage off, etc.
Not even high ELO players can land their skillshots all the time. I remember watching faker missing several charms in 1 team fight back at OGN. I guess he was just a "bad" ahri player though, right?
This is a HUGE nerf though. It becomes incredibly predictable that an ahri will lead with charm to get the max damage needed to take someone out. Flash, or just a general escape will make that charm incredibly difficult to land. Fizz will hard counter ahri into the ground. Not just that but this destroys her teamfighting capabilities and makes it so you're only good for single target damage. You're essentially a leblanc. Actually, leblanc is probably way better in almost every way after these changes.
On October 11 2013 11:58 Slusher wrote: that comparison isn't even close to reasonable.
The Nidalee comparison or Lux/Morg comparison?
Due to the nature of her E (the CC), she's far closer in gameplay to Lux/Morg than she is to Nidalee (albeit with either more damage [Lux], and more mobility [both Lux and Morg]).
On October 11 2013 12:03 wei2coolman wrote:
On October 11 2013 11:58 Lord Tolkien wrote:
On October 11 2013 11:56 wei2coolman wrote: @Lord Tolkien It essentially turns Ahri into a less awesome Nidalee at this point. If your going to make her entire kit to kill something based on a single skillshot, you've turned her into a lame version of Nidalee.
You can say the same thing about Morgana or Lux though. O_o
Are they lamer versions of Nidalee too?
Lux's build tends to have far more CDR, her Q becomes less consequential in terms of missing, not to mention she has an easier ability to catch back liners, much longer range, her ulti and E can hit back line. Ahri doesn't have the same capability. Morgana hasn't touched pro play in a longgg time.
Ahri's build includes a DFG as first item. With masteries, you're talking 33-34% CDR with a blue as is (Lux has 40% from usually Grail+Blue). The CDR differential and base CDs (Lux has higher CDs on her Q pre level 5) only adds up to a 2s difference to Lux Q and Ahri E CDs. Lux has a higher range on it (+200), but Ahri has significantly more damage and mobility than does Lux.
Again, you're oversimplifying it.
2 seconds is huge, and not to mention it's ability to catch 2 people + longer range + ability to hit back line. Ahri's charm is nothing close to how Lux binding works, especially considering how the follow up works. Pretty much requires her to land a perfect charm on a back liner, and then diving through everyone without getting cc'd up, to do her damage (if she's lucky, cuz W is going to be auto targeted so might not even hit back liner, same applying to her ulti). Her ability to pick solo targets with fnatic bush camping won't change too much, but it destroys her teamfighting. This reminds me of her initial set of nerfs, she was a strong pick, but she wasn't #1 in meta, but they still chose to hit Ahri before other champs.
1) 6.6s vs 7.8s is actually not that large (18% longer CD is fairly inconsequential given Charm is flat out a better CC, and this is ONLY at level 5 Q/E, given prior to level 5 Lux Q, her Q has a LONGER CD due to CD scaling vs non-scaling). And again, Ahri has SIGNIFICANTLY more damage then Lux does. And SIGNIFICANTLY more mobility.
2) Again, is Lux a shitty version of Nidalee, if your previous statement holds? And similarly, Lux hasn't been seen in competitive in quite some time (because of the rise of assassins like Zed/Kass/Fizz and AHRI).
3) Ahri back then was also highly problematic. It was already invalidating a number of mid picks by its very existence (because all picks that couldn't survive against her were simply dropped), and the same is happening now with the current set of assassins (Zed/Fizz/Ahri/Kass, others such as Talon/Kha/Akali are in line), whom have too high rewards for not enough risk.
On October 11 2013 11:56 wei2coolman wrote: @Lord Tolkien It essentially turns Ahri into a less awesome Nidalee at this point. If your going to make her entire kit to kill something based on a single skillshot, you've turned her into a lame version of Nidalee.
You can say the same thing about Morgana or Lux though. O_o
Are they lamer versions of Nidalee too?
Lux's build tends to have far more CDR, her Q becomes less consequential in terms of missing, not to mention she has an easier ability to catch back liners, much longer range, her ulti and E can hit back line. Ahri doesn't have the same capability. Morgana hasn't touched pro play in a longgg time.
Also, in Worlds, it was shown that Ahri as fairly inconsequential. You can bait out the pick and make her useless. Also, where's the fizz and zed nerfs?
if you are going to make that argument, all 3 got shut down when the teams were evenly matched.
Assassins are either over rated or they aren't.
@^ I was refering to the comparison of Ahri to Nidalee, it's unreasonable.
On October 11 2013 11:51 Lord Tolkien wrote: On Ahri's single target numbers:
Landing all her spells, she gets 1235+285% AP (1515+365% AP if she gets two rotations of foxfire on a single target) of damage.
Add a DFG proc on top of it and it goes to 15% max HP+1418+326.5% AP (or 15% max HP+1754+422.5% AP) [note it doesn't amplify the true damage, and charm hits before DFG].
Without hitting either an E or a Q, her damage is 775+185% AP (1055+265% with 2 foxfires), and goes up to 15% max HP+930+222% AP (or 15% max HP+1266+318% AP) with a DFG proc.
That's again still pretty damn high, and without landing any skillshots to boot.
Her new numbers are as follows:
Full spell rotation (double proc of W): 1261+280.3% AP (or 1530+357.1% AP)
DFG+Full spell rotation (double proc of W) [charm first]: 18% max HP+1417.8+314.1% AP (18% max HP+1731.7+403.7% AP)
W+R (double proc of W): 644+139% AP (868+203% AP)
DFG+W+R (double proc of W): 15% max HP+772.8+166.8%AP (15% max HP+1041+243.6% AP)
In other words, in single target situations her damage is roughly comparable if she lands her shit (slightly higher base for slightly lower ratios), while not landing charm or Q nerfs her damage significantly, same with a DFG (slightly lower ratios, basically same base damage), while her damage without landing her skillshots has dropped significantly.
Looking at the numbers, you could probably tweak her so that her E also applies on the true damage portion of Q (and maybe ignite), which would ensure that her full combo rotational damage increases as a whole, but in general, her AP ratio remains pretty nuts compared to, say, Lux (a combo of 1190+205% AP).
In general though, it does punish bad Ahri's who don't land charms or Qs, so I'm all for the change.
The big misconception here is that you believe a good ahri player is someone that lands skillshots. For most champions this really isn't the case. This is true for thresh/blitzcrank, and rightfully so imo because they are supports who should scale off their skills landing than actual AP, but this isn't true for pretty much everyone else. A good ahri player is someone who knows the limits of their champion, knows how to lane, how to harass, how to position their orb of deception to get its true damage off, etc.
Not even high ELO players can land their skillshots all the time. I remember watching faker missing several charms in 1 team fight back at OGN. I guess he was just a "bad" ahri player though, right?
No one can land every skillshot, but if you want assassination potential, having to land the E is better game design then just W+DFG+R+W=dead
Yes, cuz Zed and Fizz have such a hard time to land all those skill shots, same applies to Akali, and Talon too, right? lol. No other assassin requires this.
On October 11 2013 12:22 wei2coolman wrote: Yes, cuz Zed and Fizz have such a hard time to land all those skill shots, same applies to Akali, and Talon too, right? lol. No other assassin requires this.
This.
Also an ahri missing her q and e to assassinate a target takes a long ass time to kill their target. Not exactly assassination. Compare that to fizz, kassadin, or zed who have huge ratios and can deal lots of damage regardless of their ult.
Seriously, ahri players should just take up leblanc at this point. There is nothing the new ahri can do that leblanc can't do better.
On October 11 2013 12:22 wei2coolman wrote: Yes, cuz Zed and Fizz have such a hard time to land all those skill shots, same applies to Akali, and Talon too, right? lol. No other assassin requires this.
This.
Also an ahri missing her q and e to assassinate a target takes a long ass time to kill their target. Not exactly assassination. Compare that to fizz, kassadin, or zed who have huge ratios and can deal lots of damage regardless of their ult.
Seriously, ahri players should just take up leblanc at this point. There is nothing the new ahri can do that leblanc can't do better.
"hey guiz, stay in place so the true damage part of my Q hits!!!!" I wouldn't be so salty about this Ahri change, if they increased her single target damage potential with the Charm landing.
On October 11 2013 12:13 SoulSever wrote: Just saw LoCi on stream vs Fishing for Urf. I like to play fizz myself and also like to pick panth when facing one. Thoughts on the match-up?
1v1 Panth will beat Fizz until pretty late, like lvl 9+ I think. Only way Fizz can win is if the jungle comes and ganks you. Or, like the last game, if your jungle Vi comes and kills herself in their enemy jungle and bates you in, giving Fizz a double kill and double buffs. Then you lose as Panth.
Note: As Fizz your best bet is to just start crystalline, maybe even take TP, and just get what cs you can and counter his ganks with TP, imo.
On October 11 2013 12:22 wei2coolman wrote: Yes, cuz Zed and Fizz have such a hard time to land all those skill shots, same applies to Akali, and Talon too, right? lol. No other assassin requires this.
Ahri falls in a somewhat curious middle ground and bridge between traditional AP mages and full assassins. Ahri does not need to commit fully to do her damage or be impactful (her Charm again), but has significant single target assassination potential. Zed and Fizz need to commit fully (and again need and are in line for nerfs), as do Akali/Talon, and Kassadin has too much snowball comparatively (since his lane phase is better now with D.Shield and Flask start options). And yes, both Zed+Fizz need to hit skillshots. The skillshots may be easier, but they need to hit them nonetheless.
On October 11 2013 12:29 wei2coolman wrote: Plz, Zed skillshot so fucking easy. Fizz still 100-0 any squishy without ulti.
1) It's easy, but it's still a skillshot. Which reminds me, that's an area that Riot can hit. His Q's skillshot speed. Again, unlike Ahri (who has the utility from her E) Zed entirely depends on being able to 100-0 someone, so there needs to be a way to nerf Zed and providing counterplay options without entirely destroying his damage.
2) Fizz whiffing his R is significantly less threat (unless he's fed out the wazoo). He has to use his E to close if you're properly positioned (which is a significant portion of his damage), because his Q range is, in reality, pretty bad. 550 spell range is like 425-450 AA range.
On October 11 2013 12:29 wei2coolman wrote: Plz, Zed skillshot so fucking easy. Fizz still 100-0 any squishy without ulti.
this is mostly due to build, LB first means the LB is doing the heavy lifting.
Pretty much, his ulti is just there to isolate targets, but his damage is pretty unchanged, he still "lolololololol fuck you up"
His damage is conditional on landing his Q+E, even if he misses his R. If he misses his R, chances are he'd have to use his E to close against a squishy (and lose the E damage, which Fizz typically maxes first), and unless he's fed, his Q+W damage is not enough to instagib (and closing with Q, again, is still very difficult against ranged chars. Try to do so against a Caitlyn). Again, until he has Zhonyas and max E, using E means he's ALL IN. Very difficult to disengage without it.
Fizz, unlike Zed, has counterplay options in the early/mid game, though he snowballs ridiculously hard. They need nerfs, but nerfing them (and Kass) requires hitting the deeper, problematic design aspects and Riot are probably puzzling out good nerfs for them as we type. It's not as obvious as Ahri's "W+R is all my damage, I don't really need to hit Q+E to instagib people".
On October 11 2013 13:27 Requizen wrote: Jinx definitely has self-peeling problems. However, to make up for that, her damage and poke are fucking insane. Like legit batshit.
She's probably replaced Kog and Trist as best hypercarry in game.
On October 11 2013 13:27 Requizen wrote: Jinx definitely has self-peeling problems. However, to make up for that, her damage and poke are fucking insane. Like legit batshit.
She's probably replaced Kog and Trist as best hypercarry in game.
ehhhhh I don't know about that
Her single target damage isnt as high and she has low aspd with sharkzooka
Pulsefire Tristana was at one time in the works. Ugly though.
Elf Trist looks cool. I'll probably get it.
The hitboxes on jinx's E are dumb as shit. They should either make Cait traps have a larger radius again or drastically reduce Jinx's. She's actually a decent duelist, almost killing me when I fought her as Jax 2 or 3 times. I wasn't more fed than her and was mostly defensive with a Triforce and Mallet for Offence and a Banshees, GA, Tabis, SotAG for defence and she was standard AD. She's definitely nowhere near as weak as Caitlyn in terms of dueling strength. She is easy to catch out, but unless you have mallet and a 6 second cooldown gap closer, there's a good chance she's getting away anyways.
EPT
