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On September 13 2013 03:46 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 03:42 thenexusp wrote:On September 13 2013 03:30 JimmiC wrote:
I've heard that Cait is a hard counter to ahri. Assuming this is true, why not put a AP carry bot lane with a support and cait mid? Have like karth free farm bot, or whatever. Why is this bad? I'm assuming it is because no one does it. we did it in a solo game with Kass bot I was lulu and the cait went mid to crush morde. The Kass and Cait carried hard and it was a easy win. But the cait and top lane were all pissy till we started winning. Maybe there is a good reason why not to do this but is it awful to switch your apc and adc if the matchup suggests a better coutner? most of mage/caster champs' damage comes from base numbers on abilities, which you raise by getting XP. most of an adc's damage comes from being able to get highly damaging autoattacks by multiplying AD, AS, and crit, which you achieve by getting gold. Therefore you want your caster champ to be in a solo lane to get the most XP, while your adc can share XP with a support and do fine as long as he can keep the gold flowing. This is of course assuming people are equally skilled. If the AP+support manage to pick up kills in lane then the fact that it's suboptimal to share XP that way becomes moot. Of course, there's no reason why you can't do something like send your adc+support mid and have your midlaner 1v2 bot lane. This is not entirely accurate, lots of ADCs do benefit from levels, solo lane adc jsut requires a slightly different playstyle/mentality than the farm for 30 minutes in a duo lane style.
true, there isn't a hard line between adc and mage/caster
however, a team that send ezreal mid still has a traditional adc bot lane. If your teamcomp was zac, j4, kassadin, ez, sona, you wouldn't send ez mid and kass duo bot with sona.
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On September 13 2013 04:01 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 03:51 thenexusp wrote:On September 13 2013 03:46 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On September 13 2013 03:42 thenexusp wrote:On September 13 2013 03:30 JimmiC wrote:
I've heard that Cait is a hard counter to ahri. Assuming this is true, why not put a AP carry bot lane with a support and cait mid? Have like karth free farm bot, or whatever. Why is this bad? I'm assuming it is because no one does it. we did it in a solo game with Kass bot I was lulu and the cait went mid to crush morde. The Kass and Cait carried hard and it was a easy win. But the cait and top lane were all pissy till we started winning. Maybe there is a good reason why not to do this but is it awful to switch your apc and adc if the matchup suggests a better coutner? most of mage/caster champs' damage comes from base numbers on abilities, which you raise by getting XP. most of an adc's damage comes from being able to get highly damaging autoattacks by multiplying AD, AS, and crit, which you achieve by getting gold. Therefore you want your caster champ to be in a solo lane to get the most XP, while your adc can share XP with a support and do fine as long as he can keep the gold flowing. This is of course assuming people are equally skilled. If the AP+support manage to pick up kills in lane then the fact that it's suboptimal to share XP that way becomes moot. Of course, there's no reason why you can't do something like send your adc+support mid and have your midlaner 1v2 bot lane. This is not entirely accurate, lots of ADCs do benefit from levels, solo lane adc jsut requires a slightly different playstyle/mentality than the farm for 30 minutes in a duo lane style. true, there isn't a hard line between adc and mage/caster however, a team that send ezreal mid still has a traditional adc bot lane. If your teamcomp was zac, j4, kassadin, ez, sona, you wouldn't send ez mid and kass duo bot with sona. What if the kass gets hard countered mid and u know the ez will destroy that mid.
You could just rotate lanes out so Kass isn't fucked in 1v1.*
eg. Kass gets the 1v2, force 2v1 on their mid.
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Kassadin 1v2ing sounds worse than absolutely any "hard counter" lane. Kassadin is complete shit in a 1v2 lane.
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I think the ideal scenario is to have Kass still go into the bad match up and just let your jungler baby sit him. Kass wants that levels a lot more than Ez and once you get Kass to level 6 there really isn't a lane that's going to "hard counter" him anymore.
Alternatively don't pick Kassadin until you know what mid the other team is running.
Like, I cannot stress enough how bad Kassadin is in 2v2 lanes. Or 2v1s. If your mid laner was like Annie or Ahri or anyone who's not Kassadin you could probably swap with an Ezreal or Corki or whatever sometimes but it still wouldn't be ideal as mages are just better roamers and use the levels better than any ADC does.
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On September 13 2013 04:14 overt wrote:
Kassadin 1v2ing sounds worse than absolutely any "hard counter" lane. Kassadin is complete shit in a 1v2 lane.
Thing is you care way more about his levels than his farm, so his inability to farm isn't too much of a problem. Sure he can get zoned, but in this case what stops the duo mid to push down the lane (or even dive 3v1 with the jungler) and open up your side of the map way more?
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On September 13 2013 00:09 glzElectromaster wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 00:00 JimmiC wrote:On September 12 2013 17:31 cLutZ wrote:On September 12 2013 15:47 TheLink wrote:+ Show Spoiler +There's a reason Jamaica doesn't have a world class bobsled team.
Korea's strength is the same as in any other sport. Existing infrastructure, talented coaches and a wider talent pool to draw from. Are the Europeans so good at soccer because all the other countries just don't really want to win the world cup? hell no. To answer your World Cup question: Yes. Simply put, Americans do not prioritize soccer. Look at every player who is in the NBA/NFL/NHL/MLB and imagine if that man started playing soccer at 4. These are a bunch of great athletes that don't play on our soccer teams. But it goes beyond that, because there are other American athletes that didn't make those major sports leagues, but tried, and dedicated themselves to those sports, but had talents that would have made them elite soccer players. So basically, the Americans that play for our soccer team represent the best athletes that come from the <1% of the population that properly engages in soccer training and competition (and that is so low because even the stuff we do, we mostly do half-ass when it comes to teaching soccer to kids under 15, and by then its too late). The same all applies to E-Sports. Koreans have an incredibly high % of getting young kids to experiment (in the right way) with competitive games, they have a good infrastructure for developing them, etc, because the culture cares. And on top of that, its EASIER to do in Korea. A Korean who fails at E-Sports is in a better position relative to his peers than an American who fails. Just look at the median incomes of KR University grads and NA University grads. Voyboy had to put off going to a really good school (I think Berkley or something about that good) to play LOL, and he is on the good side. Imagine some of the players from the old Meat Playground, or hell, even MRN's players. They had a 4 month job at a fairly good salary for a LOT of investment. On top of that, just judging from the outside, it looks like once a guy like imp retires, he can probably get a lot of credit on his University application for playing for Samsung. And when he graduates, get a job, because he was sponsored in what that culture considers a useful/real pursuit, by Samsung. It depends what field you are getting into. If it's a tech field with the popularity of LOL you will get some great attention and opportunities based on it. I have a highschool buddy who made it to the CFL (canadian football league) He was a back up O-line man and made 30-50k a year for his 4 year career. In university he had to miss a season due to ineligibility due to grades. So my point is he got bad grades. And wsa a no name player in a no name league. When he retired he instantly received a investment banking job playing a 120k salary. I with better grades and working for the time he was in the CFL would never get this opportunity. The same sort of thing will happen for these LOL pros when they head off to the "real" world depending on what they choose. Also most are young. Very few people do particularly productive stuff for at least a couple years in the 18-25 range. It's more about gaining life experiance and figureing out what to do. Which most still don't know at that time. Spending a couple years trying for LOL professionalism isn't gonna set you back in any "real" way when speaking in the long term. If Broodwar pros' lives after retirement are what the LoL pros will follow, it won't be that easy for everyone. Many of the more accomplished players returned to the scene by coaching or casting. Others went straight into military service, or get a job completely unrelated. Some actually got a job, some are still struggling. Lomo became a police officer, and I forget who (was it Backho?) became a Christian minister. Those are the oddballs. The only one that truly became successful in a field other than esports is probably Xellos, where he actually got a marketing position at CJ, which is pretty impressive as it is hard to get hired into a large corporation like them. Perhaps I missed someone else, but others aren't as lucky. Luxury being a wretched person he is got arrested. I know some other pro also got arrested for robbery.
I was mostly talking about NA pros. Like does anyone know what happened to the old Broodwar Americans not named IdrA, Artosis, or Day[9]? Are they currently making bank at Sony because of their e-sports background, or, more likely, finally finishing an associates at age 28?
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On September 13 2013 04:27 Alaric wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 04:14 overt wrote:
Kassadin 1v2ing sounds worse than absolutely any "hard counter" lane. Kassadin is complete shit in a 1v2 lane. Thing is you care way more about his levels than his farm, so his inability to farm isn't too much of a problem. Sure he can get zoned, but in this case what stops the duo mid to push down the lane (or even dive 3v1 with the jungler) and open up your side of the map way more?
this is ideally what I was thinking how it plays out.
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United States47024 Posts
On September 13 2013 04:27 Alaric wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 04:14 overt wrote:
Kassadin 1v2ing sounds worse than absolutely any "hard counter" lane. Kassadin is complete shit in a 1v2 lane. Thing is you care way more about his levels than his farm, so his inability to farm isn't too much of a problem. Sure he can get zoned, but in this case what stops the duo mid to push down the lane (or even dive 3v1 with the jungler) and open up your side of the map way more?
I don't know how you expect your duo mid to take the tower first when virtually every mid has better wave clear/anti-push than Kassadin does. If anything, he has to worry about the 3v1 dive more due to his lack of outs against the dive.
Plus, breaking an early tower with lane swaps generally forces the game into the teamfight/objective phase far earlier than normal. Kassadin doesn't want this. While his laning is not great, a game that breaks into teamfighting too early is also not good for him because without items, teamfighting is actually somewhat problematic for him.
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On September 13 2013 04:33 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 04:27 Alaric wrote:On September 13 2013 04:14 overt wrote:
Kassadin 1v2ing sounds worse than absolutely any "hard counter" lane. Kassadin is complete shit in a 1v2 lane. Thing is you care way more about his levels than his farm, so his inability to farm isn't too much of a problem. Sure he can get zoned, but in this case what stops the duo mid to push down the lane (or even dive 3v1 with the jungler) and open up your side of the map way more? I don't know how you expect your duo mid to take the tower first when virtually every mid has better wave clear/anti-push than Kassadin does. If anything, he has to worry about the 3v1 dive more due to his lack of outs against the dive.
I meant in the case where the duo against Kassadin tries to zone him the wave to deny him as much exp as possible, as opposed to pushing down his tower or diving him. If they're pushing he'll at least get the exp, which is what he wants, and his jungler can still come to help him if things look dicey.
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United States47024 Posts
On September 13 2013 04:36 Alaric wrote:
I meant in the case where the duo against Kassadin tries to zone him the wave to deny him as much exp as possible, as opposed to pushing down his tower or diving him. If they're pushing he'll at least get the exp, which is what he wants, and his jungler can still come to help him if things look dicey.
That's not a guarantee. If their jungler threatens the 3v1 dive, you pretty much have to GTFO and give up the entire 3 waves of XP because you have no outs against it at low levels. The jungler coming doesn't help that much because Kassadin's level 1 counter-fighting ability is insanely weak.
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On September 13 2013 04:37 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 04:36 Alaric wrote:
I meant in the case where the duo against Kassadin tries to zone him the wave to deny him as much exp as possible, as opposed to pushing down his tower or diving him. If they're pushing he'll at least get the exp, which is what he wants, and his jungler can still come to help him if things look dicey. That's not a guarantee. If their jungler threatens the 3v1 dive, you pretty much have to GTFO and give up the entire 3 waves of XP because you have no outs against it at low levels. The jungler coming doesn't help that much because Kassadin's level 1 counter-fighting ability is insanely weak.
Then you freeze lane at 2nd turret, and farm up afterwords. Assuming the 3v1 early turret is coming.
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Also its easier to zone, then push a huge wave to tower in the sidelanes. In mid you can't horde nearly the entirety of 3 waves and push with like 9 ranged minions, 6 melle, and a siege into tower. The best you are going to get is like 5/3/1.
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On September 13 2013 04:38 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 04:30 cLutZ wrote:On September 13 2013 00:09 glzElectromaster wrote:On September 13 2013 00:00 JimmiC wrote:On September 12 2013 17:31 cLutZ wrote:On September 12 2013 15:47 TheLink wrote:+ Show Spoiler +There's a reason Jamaica doesn't have a world class bobsled team.
Korea's strength is the same as in any other sport. Existing infrastructure, talented coaches and a wider talent pool to draw from. Are the Europeans so good at soccer because all the other countries just don't really want to win the world cup? hell no. To answer your World Cup question: Yes. Simply put, Americans do not prioritize soccer. Look at every player who is in the NBA/NFL/NHL/MLB and imagine if that man started playing soccer at 4. These are a bunch of great athletes that don't play on our soccer teams. But it goes beyond that, because there are other American athletes that didn't make those major sports leagues, but tried, and dedicated themselves to those sports, but had talents that would have made them elite soccer players. So basically, the Americans that play for our soccer team represent the best athletes that come from the <1% of the population that properly engages in soccer training and competition (and that is so low because even the stuff we do, we mostly do half-ass when it comes to teaching soccer to kids under 15, and by then its too late). The same all applies to E-Sports. Koreans have an incredibly high % of getting young kids to experiment (in the right way) with competitive games, they have a good infrastructure for developing them, etc, because the culture cares. And on top of that, its EASIER to do in Korea. A Korean who fails at E-Sports is in a better position relative to his peers than an American who fails. Just look at the median incomes of KR University grads and NA University grads. Voyboy had to put off going to a really good school (I think Berkley or something about that good) to play LOL, and he is on the good side. Imagine some of the players from the old Meat Playground, or hell, even MRN's players. They had a 4 month job at a fairly good salary for a LOT of investment. On top of that, just judging from the outside, it looks like once a guy like imp retires, he can probably get a lot of credit on his University application for playing for Samsung. And when he graduates, get a job, because he was sponsored in what that culture considers a useful/real pursuit, by Samsung. It depends what field you are getting into. If it's a tech field with the popularity of LOL you will get some great attention and opportunities based on it. I have a highschool buddy who made it to the CFL (canadian football league) He was a back up O-line man and made 30-50k a year for his 4 year career. In university he had to miss a season due to ineligibility due to grades. So my point is he got bad grades. And wsa a no name player in a no name league. When he retired he instantly received a investment banking job playing a 120k salary. I with better grades and working for the time he was in the CFL would never get this opportunity. The same sort of thing will happen for these LOL pros when they head off to the "real" world depending on what they choose. Also most are young. Very few people do particularly productive stuff for at least a couple years in the 18-25 range. It's more about gaining life experiance and figureing out what to do. Which most still don't know at that time. Spending a couple years trying for LOL professionalism isn't gonna set you back in any "real" way when speaking in the long term. If Broodwar pros' lives after retirement are what the LoL pros will follow, it won't be that easy for everyone. Many of the more accomplished players returned to the scene by coaching or casting. Others went straight into military service, or get a job completely unrelated. Some actually got a job, some are still struggling. Lomo became a police officer, and I forget who (was it Backho?) became a Christian minister. Those are the oddballs. The only one that truly became successful in a field other than esports is probably Xellos, where he actually got a marketing position at CJ, which is pretty impressive as it is hard to get hired into a large corporation like them. Perhaps I missed someone else, but others aren't as lucky. Luxury being a wretched person he is got arrested. I know some other pro also got arrested for robbery. I was mostly talking about NA pros. Like does anyone know what happened to the old Broodwar Americans not named IdrA, Artosis, or Day[9]? Are they currently making bank at Sony because of their e-sports background, or, more likely, finally finishing an associates at age 28? I would think more are suceeding then not. But LOL in NA is way way way bigger then BW was. And even if you finishing your associates degree at 28 that really doesn't put you very far behind most. And you gained some decent life experiance with the travel and so on. There are a lot of employers that would prefer to hire a 28 year old just out then a 22 just out based on percieved maturity. I guess my main point is. Losing a couple years to try to follow your dream is worth it. And with the populatity of LOL you will probably be able to leverage that experiance also.
What I meant is, what I articulated is exactly why American kids don't choose esports.
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United States47024 Posts
On September 13 2013 04:40 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 04:37 TheYango wrote:On September 13 2013 04:36 Alaric wrote:
I meant in the case where the duo against Kassadin tries to zone him the wave to deny him as much exp as possible, as opposed to pushing down his tower or diving him. If they're pushing he'll at least get the exp, which is what he wants, and his jungler can still come to help him if things look dicey. That's not a guarantee. If their jungler threatens the 3v1 dive, you pretty much have to GTFO and give up the entire 3 waves of XP because you have no outs against it at low levels. The jungler coming doesn't help that much because Kassadin's level 1 counter-fighting ability is insanely weak. Then you freeze lane at 2nd turret, and farm up afterwords. Assuming the 3v1 early turret is coming.
Then you have to ask the question why you picked Kassadin in the first place if you have to skip the tempo-controlling phase of the game where he's strong to freeze a lane on 2nd tower and farm.
Kassadin's teamfight is really not all that impressive before he has 1-2 major items. Typically swapped lanes lead to early objective fights on lower overall economy, which are awkward for Kassadin to participate in.
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Some more Olaf tweaks.
I'm having so much trouble evaluating it. I mean, he looked super strong, but here he's being buffed a bit. So did he feel weak? His total lack of mobility and reliance on short-duration steroids to do his thing (but mostly the lack of mobility) makes it really hard to appreciate how much stronger he has to be than your typical fighter to make him strong enough.
^ LW and void staff get stronger than BT/deathcap pretty quickly as far as resistances threshold are involved, my guess is they'd like to increase the threshold so you make the conscious decision to rush Void Staff over deathcap to deal with the MR-stacking diver in the other team, rather than because it's more damage even against the glass-cannon in their backline.
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someone should link xil that syndra build 
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EPT
