EPTThey are too good.
Recently I've been playing Syndra, Kassadin and Ryze mid with RoA+Tear being the start for all of them. Ridiculously overpowered imho.
[Patch 3.10a: Worlds Balance] General Discussion - Page 81
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XilDarkz
United States563 Posts
They are too good. Recently I've been playing Syndra, Kassadin and Ryze mid with RoA+Tear being the start for all of them. Ridiculously overpowered imho. | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On August 28 2013 05:46 sylverfyre wrote: E is like... a great burst damage ability, which is all you really need for ganking. o_o Obviously it's not the hugest damage, but it's plenty to be a big threat, especially since you're hard to take down. Basically you E onto someone, hit them and let redbuff do the real damage. You do give up dueling power by maxing E, but since you're hard to take down, you should be able to live long enough for allies to get there, and your CC works really well in 2v2/3v3s. E's damage has been lowered basically every single patch. It's not that much burst anymore, especially if you compare it to other burst abilities on common junglers like J4/Elise, etc... Zac's cc is pretty crappy with low level Q and if you don't have ult; from the jungle you're going to have low level Q and without ult the pressure you can put on lanes pre-6 isn't that great. He's not a bad jungler, just not a great one. On August 28 2013 05:51 XilDarkz wrote: I still feel that I am invincible if I get Rod of Ages+Tear on Syndra early. I like to force team fights and in solo queue, I generally initiate with a pick-off + 5man stun, and then rely on my team for the next 10 seconds til my stun is ready. Alternatively, Seraph's+Zhonya's+Rod of Ages means I can fight during that 10 seconds (depending on their team comp; Zhonya's on a big ultimate or whatever makes this cake) They are too good. Recently I've been playing Syndra, Kassadin and Ryze mid with RoA+Tear being the start for all of them. Ridiculously overpowered imho. I can't say anything about Syndra since I don't play her, but saying RoA+Tear being good on Kassadin and Ryze, then extrapolating that it's "too good" of an item in general is like saying IE is good on AD carries and therefore too good of an item in general. You literally listed the two champions who use Rod better than pretty much every other champion in League. Both of whom scale very well with the max mana you get off RoA and Tear. No shit it's gonna be good. | ||
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Lord Tolkien
United States12084 Posts
On other mages, Seraphs+RoA ranges from middling to subpar. Annie, for instance, doesn't derive much benefit at all from stacking a Tear (or Malz), and mages like Brand or Ori benefit much more from Grail/Morellonomicon, which is more beneficial for them. | ||
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Anakko
France1934 Posts
On August 28 2013 05:51 XilDarkz wrote: I like to force team fights and in solo queue, I generally initiate with a pick-off + 5man stun, *rolls eyes* | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31495 Posts
I thought this, but then again it is possible. Xildarkz, do you have a stream highlight of one of these stuns so I can see it? I am aware this sort of thing is possible but I imagine it's very difficult to do. (I'm not trolling.) | ||
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silencefc
United States875 Posts
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Anakko
France1934 Posts
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mordek
United States12705 Posts
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Anakko
France1934 Posts
Can Tibbers be stunned? Or Morde's ghost? | ||
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thenexusp
United States3721 Posts
On August 28 2013 06:19 Anakko wrote: OP syndra winning 5v6 fights. Can Tibbers be stunned? Or Morde's ghost? The wiki says "all enemies", so yes, Tibbers, Morde Ghost, Shaco Clone, Melee Minion, Mini Lizard, all stunnable. | ||
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
On August 28 2013 06:01 Ryuu314 wrote: E's damage has been lowered basically every single patch. It's not that much burst anymore, especially if you compare it to other burst abilities on common junglers like J4/Elise, etc... Zac's cc is pretty crappy with low level Q and if you don't have ult; from the jungle you're going to have low level Q and without ult the pressure you can put on lanes pre-6 isn't that great. He's not a bad jungler, just not a great one. I'm not sure what assumptions you're making regarding Jarvan, but at face value Zac has more damage. For example, a level 6 gank: Jarvan: 160 + 60 + 200 + 6% Current Health Zac: 70 + 40 + 160 + 140-350 + 4% Current Health They're comparable, and at his best Zac has a significant damage advantage. Granted these are simplified calculations, but I'm curious why you think other common junglers do better. | ||
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kainzero
United States5211 Posts
On August 28 2013 06:14 WaveofShadow wrote: I thought this, but then again it is possible. Xildarkz, do you have a stream highlight of one of these stuns so I can see it? I am aware this sort of thing is possible but I imagine it's very difficult to do. (I'm not trolling.) Without using ult, it's possible like a 5-man Sona Crescendo is possible. The most orbs you can prep as a quick initiate is two, you would need to be holding an orb, then you summon orb and throw the orb then Scatter. With ult, it's too slow as a primary initiate, much better as a followup AoE stun. Getting 5-mans is difficult (as it is with any AoE stun because the other team shouldn't be standing together unless they're terrible) but it's pretty easy to get anything from 2-4. I don't think RoA is good on Syndra anyway. You shouldn't be running out of mana with grail or tear alone, and her abilities and range let her play more like an AD carry so you get minimal benefit from the health when RoA timing kicks in. If you want the health for dueling or skirmishing, it's better to pick up a Haunting Guise, as the timing is when it's more likely you'll get into those kinds of fights. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
On August 28 2013 06:30 Seuss wrote: I'm not sure what assumptions you're making regarding Jarvan, but at face value Zac has more damage. For example, a level 6 gank: Jarvan: 160 + 60 + 200 + 6% Current Health Zac: 70 + 40 + 160 + 140-350 + 4% Current Health They're comparable, and at his best Zac has a significant damage advantage. Granted these are simplified calculations, but I'm curious why you think other common junglers do better. I think this is actually favorable to Jarvan math wise, because realistically the flag toss will be thrown behind the target and won't hit them, or the entire combo will be used to get him in range for an ult initiate. Plus Zac should get to use W more than once. | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On August 28 2013 06:30 Seuss wrote: I'm not sure what assumptions you're making regarding Jarvan, but at face value Zac has more damage. For example, a level 6 gank: Jarvan: 160 + 60 + 200 + 6% Current Health Zac: 70 + 40 + 160 + 140-350 + 4% Current Health They're comparable, and at his best Zac has a significant damage advantage. Granted these are simplified calculations, but I'm curious why you think other common junglers do better. I'm talking mostly pre-6. Pretty sure I said that in my post... If Zac has his ult up, he will easily out-damage most other junglers assuming he gets 2~3 bounces. Without it, he lags in the damage department. Zac's ganking potential goes up immensely with his ultimate, but when he doesn't have it or when it's down he feels underwhelming from the jungle rather early on. Once he gets levels under his belt he's pretty formidable. Besides, Zac's just so much stronger in the solo lane there's really 0 reason to place him in the jungle at all. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
On August 28 2013 06:45 Ryuu314 wrote: I'm talking mostly pre-6. Pretty sure I said that in my post... If Zac has his ult up, he will easily out-damage most other junglers assuming he gets 2~3 bounces. Without it, he lags in the damage department. Zac's ganking potential goes up immensely with his ultimate, but when he doesn't have it or when it's down he feels underwhelming from the jungle rather early on. Once he gets levels under his belt he's pretty formidable. Besides, Zac's just so much stronger in the solo lane there's really 0 reason to place him in the jungle at all. I'm not even sure this is true. Comparing a level 3 Zac to a level 3 Jarvan, Zac: 80+70+40+4% = 190+4% Jarvan: 115+60+6% = 175+6% And again, that's assuming that Jarvan hits them with both the flag toss and the dragon strike, and that Zac only gets to cast W once during the gank, which at level 3 is very questionable since blue buff +runes/masteries drops it to like a 2.8 second cooldown. Zacs initiate is also longer range than Jarvans even at level 3. | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On August 28 2013 06:48 Ketara wrote: I'm not even sure this is true. Comparing a level 3 Zac to a level 3 Jarvan, Zac: 80+70+40+4% = 190+4% Jarvan: 115+60+6% = 175+6% And again, that's assuming that Jarvan hits them with both the flag toss and the dragon strike, and that Zac only gets to cast W once during the gank, which at level 3 is very questionable since blue buff +runes/masteries drops it to like a 2.8 second cooldown. The 2% max hp difference can easily make up the 15 damage difference. More importantly, you also can't ignore the effects of J4's armor shred making every successive attack considerably stronger. I don't know how most junglers do it, but when I played Zac jungle on his release I tended to skip W until level 4. Having the extra range on E is too good to pass up. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
W Q E E E R R>E>W>Q It sounds to me like you're making statements about Zac when you don't play him much/correctly  Not that you're wrong exactly, most junglers are stronger in top lane and Zac works fine in top lane. But he's also a strong jungler. | ||
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kainzero
United States5211 Posts
On August 28 2013 06:45 Ryuu314 wrote: Besides, Zac's just so much stronger in the solo lane there's really 0 reason to place him in the jungle at all. There's a lot of reasons: drafting mindgames and filling team compositions are the obvious ones. EDIT: Victorious Elise looks siiiiiiiick | ||
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Amui
Canada10567 Posts
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On August 28 2013 06:54 Ketara wrote: You get W at level 1 dude, that's your camp clearing skill. W Q E E E R R>E>W>Q It sounds to me like you're making statements about Zac when you don't play him much/correctly Not that you're wrong exactly, most junglers are stronger in top lane and Zac works fine in top lane. But he's also a strong jungler. You don't need to get W at level 1 to clear effectively, especially if you get a strong leash. You can get W at level 1, but it's not necessary. I played a shitton of Zac exclusively from the jungle on his release and after his first round of nerfs. Jungle Zac got me into Plat 2. On August 28 2013 06:58 kainzero wrote: There's a lot of reasons: drafting mindgames and filling team compositions are the obvious ones. Giving up Zac's top lane power for drafting mindgames is not a very compelling reason to me honestly. It's like when teams used to jungle Malphite to "fill their team comp." There are simply better options. Besides, it's not like you need to put Zac in the jungle to avoid counterpicks and shit since Zac really has no counterpicks or hard lanes that he can't at least survive through. | ||
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