EPTTear is strong when spamming stuff and pushing waves, or long laning/trades where you have pots, but very weak in a straight up all in or jungle gank or early team fight.
You underrate catalyst, overrate rod.
[Patch 3.10a: Worlds Balance] General Discussion - Page 75
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BlueBird.
United States3890 Posts
Tear is strong when spamming stuff and pushing waves, or long laning/trades where you have pots, but very weak in a straight up all in or jungle gank or early team fight. You underrate catalyst, overrate rod. | ||
onlywonderboy
United States23745 Posts
On August 27 2013 20:16 XilDarkz wrote: Soul Ring(dota), or for that matter, Blood Chalice? (HoN) I don't see how these are a bad idea. If they only want to continue in the direction they are in, they should just remove AP and AD and just make it "Power," and each item gives an amount of power that is proportional to the cost, with expensive items giving +80 power for 1600 or a cheap item giving +20 power for 435; these Power items would be the only items. Combining Power items is too complicated for new players, so there is only 5 Power items, all of which differ only in the amount of Power they give. Jesus, I know Riot gets shit for being less complicated than Dota but come on, this post is just ridiculous. | ||
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Itsmedudeman
United States19229 Posts
Also, flash makes league 10x better. Without it the game would be incredibly dull and predictable. It promotes reaction time and engages. In most cases it IS better than other summoners but making each summoner spell balanced to each other shouldn't be the goal. Summoner spells should be taken depending upon the situation, and any summoners without a purpose should just be removed. To balance the game around champions with gap closers you'd essentially have to give everyone a built in gap close/escape. Champions like TF and other ADCs simply cannot deal without flash. | ||
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qanik
Denmark1899 Posts
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mr_tolkien
France8631 Posts
Muramana was. | ||
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
On August 27 2013 21:18 ETisME wrote: do you guys build with more focus on AS or AD for lucian? I feel like his passive makes it so that he should get more AD but his ulti seems to benefit quite a lot more from AS (400% more damage against minions help him to bring down minions quicker and hit the champions) I dont know whether it is right or not, but I've had a lot of success doing the oldschool Graves build. Been Rushing BT->PD then either LW if enemy has a ton of armor or IE. I've messed around alittle with Trinity Force, and while that seems strong, I think you really need the survivability that having a full-stacked BT affords you. Trinity Force is more damage than just BT+Zeal, but at the same time you get a lot more eHP out of the second and I think that important for an AD with Lucian's ranges. So I suppose my answer is I dont focus on either, I build like an AD carry with short range. I dont know why everyone assumes you should build around his ult scaling, I think that is kind of dumb. That being said, I think BotRK is awful on him. Its really bad for his passive, kind of a noob trap. Just Straight up BT gives him more damage early (passive scales way better, spells scale way better that way), and late game it kind of a dead slot for an AD anyway. | ||
Inflicted
Australia18228 Posts
On August 27 2013 21:18 ETisME wrote: do you guys build with more focus on AS or AD for lucian? I feel like his passive makes it so that he should get more AD but his ulti seems to benefit quite a lot more from AS (400% more damage against minions help him to bring down minions quicker and hit the champions) Vs'd a Lucian who went BT -> TF -> LW -> IE and was doing quite a lot of damage (though he was quite fed). His ult is basically useless, and most of his damage comes from his combo with passive. | ||
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
As for LoL itemization, I feel what's really missing (and we've talked about this before) is that there are very few items which lean heavily towards Slot-inefficient, Cost-efficient. These kind of items are great because they create an interesting power curves with lulls rather than "power always going up" There's a few items that do this - Haunting guise, Hexdrinker, Brutalizer. But when one-item timings like BORK completely eclipse a two-cheap-item timing like, say, brutalizer + something else (wtf do you even pair with it? There's no other 'i need power NOW I'm not concerned about long term) then you're going to have some really degenerate scenarios because there's no real 'trade-off' - the best item now is a great item later on. I'm actually kinda annoyed by the MoM buff because straight up buffing maw meant it's no longer an 'I am out of item slots i guess ill upgrade this' item. Same goes for the introduction of Liandry and Cleaver - though at least these items are still situational upgrades (Liandry only good if you're not building for spike, Cleaver mostly good for sharing your arpen with your team) | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
On the contrary, not being able to put the most-straightforward effects as actives forces you to be more creative when you want to introduce actives. Ohmwrecker, Twin Shadows, etc. are pretty fine, the problem lies more within the implementation (weak MS on ghosts) or the item holding them (Ohmwrecker's mumbo jumbo of stats and stupidly high cost) than within the concept itself. | ||
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ArchAngelSC
England706 Posts
On August 27 2013 23:03 sylverfyre wrote: Is the ult really that "useless" with BT LW IE? O_o Seems like it would hit like a truck. I don't think his ult crits? And it has such low scaling with AD that BT won't help it much either. Sure PD gives you more shots but idk I think his ult is pretty crap really. | ||
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
On August 27 2013 20:55 XilDarkz wrote: + Show Spoiler [Long Wall of Text] + IMHO, Tear and Rod of Ages (tear especially, since it is upgraded) are supposed to be the same role as Midas/Alch Bones, except they are flat out better in League than their counterparts in dota; and with Tear being so much better that its ridiculous how strong it is. I believe that Tear and RoA aren't good for League while Midas is great for Dota, and here is why: Gold is valued only in terms of the item potential. The correct choice for items is the choice around: 1.) spend towards an reagent item aimed at later power, 2.) spend in immediate power, 3.) save for immediate power at a later time. In not-League, the 4th choice is to prevent your gold from being lost. The second you buy an item, your power to exert on the neutrals+enemy team immediately increases in proportion to gold saved via earlier power exertions. When you buy an item, you get better at buying future items. This creates the dynamic that in most games, you will end up buying early items in an arms race for early objectives, secure momentum, save for big items, and spend on big items for the huge power spikes that can shift the momentum. In Dota, this leads to the dynamic where saving your money is beneficial for the act of buying expensive items (League has an incredibly low price ceiling--1600 for single component, 3500(off the top of my head) for full item) and beneficial for the act of utilizing buy back--but detrimental if you die. In League, Tear and Rod of Ages are (in comparison) ridiculously cheap and provide a power spike and a continuous power increase for their durations. In the case of Tear, the power spike is substantial (sustain for abilities) and for virtually free gives you a huge amount of room to extend that power; also in the case of tear, you gain a ridiculous power spike when you complete the item's final stage with 1k Mana stored. These items should be incredibly cost inefficient. Archangel's Staff is incredibly cost efficient, however. This is broken. These items encourage you to buy them early and give the additional benefit of also being an investment in later power. There was an item this broken in Dota before: the old Bloodstone. It was completely remade and nerfed into the ground a few times but retained the fun mechanic. What makes Midas not so broken? Midas takes away a lot of saved gold (a large amount! That's more than a 3rd of a sheep stick or skadi or whatever highest end item); saved gold is far more valuable in Dota Midas gives almost no power spike (maybe if you're jungling it might.) Midas doesn't build into anything and is not end-game viable. (Rod of Ages doesnt build into anything but is end-game viable; Tear not only builds into stuff, those items are possibly among the best for end-game.) I also believe that Mejai's and Sword of the Occult are much better than Tear and RoA, mostly because they copied the limiting factor of Bloodstone (death losing charges) and the constraints of Midas (no immediate power spike, limited end-game viability) TL;DR: Remove Tear or make it more like Soulstealer (Dying = lost charges) and Midas Remove Rod of Ages or make it more expensive to complete, and its components more useful (Catalyst cough) Buff Mejai's and Sword of the Occult; they create additional gameplay dynamics that are beneficial to players (exerting lead and encouraging good play (not dying) (focus the guy with them) and are interesting to spectators (ballsy move! will it pay off? will the enemy team shut it down?!) this also encourages more action, which league sorely lacks--Dota sees far more team fighting and action. Just a few things:
On August 27 2013 23:03 sylverfyre wrote: Is the ult really that "useless" with BT LW IE? O_o Seems like it would hit like a truck. The raw damage from his ult with that setup is 2100 damage if you land every single shot. The enemy tank (who is going to be in front and the most likely target) will have at least 180 Armor, which after LW will reduce the incoming damage to ~968. So over 3 seconds you can maybe do nearly 1000 damage to a tank, or you can auto -> Q -> double auto and do at least half that damage in less than a second, or nearly as much damage if you get crits. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
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Simberto
Germany11964 Posts
On August 27 2013 23:11 Seuss wrote: Just a few things:
The raw damage from his ult with that setup is 2100 damage if you land every single shot. The enemy tank (who is going to be in front and the most likely target) will have at least 180 Armor, which after LW will reduce the incoming damage to ~968. So over 3 seconds you can maybe do nearly 1000 damage to a tank, or you can auto -> Q -> double auto and do at least half that damage in less than a second, or nearly as much damage if you get crits. I really think the main part of his ult is that you do the damage while moving, instead of having to stop to shoot. You can continue to run backwards while shooting a line of bullets at the guys chasing you. Either they eat the bullets, or they dodge them and give you time to gain distance. | ||
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nafta
Bulgaria18893 Posts
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onlywonderboy
United States23745 Posts
On August 27 2013 22:26 mr_tolkien wrote: Tear isn't broken. Muramana was. Eh, Seraph's was incredibly strong, still is if the champ stacks it at reasonable rate. Although those are few and far between now. | ||
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
On August 27 2013 23:11 Seuss wrote: Just a few things:
The raw damage from his ult with that setup is 2100 damage if you land every single shot. The enemy tank (who is going to be in front and the most likely target) will have at least 180 Armor, which after LW will reduce the incoming damage to ~968. So over 3 seconds you can maybe do nearly 1000 damage to a tank, or you can auto -> Q -> double auto and do at least half that damage in less than a second, or nearly as much damage if you get crits. Late game teamfights I think the ult just good for refreshing E CD tbh. I think it good for chases too, or if you get blinded or something silly like that, but other than that it pretty meh. I dunno, compared to say MF ult for example it worthless. Even if you can move, you likely only going to land 75% if it like a solid ultimate in a tight knit location. Like 1400 damage over 3 seconds, compared to MF being able to do like 1200 damage over 2 seconds to an entire enemy team. I dunno, I think Lucian should be able to auto while channeling his ult. Maybe take away its AP scaling, but it really is just lackluster. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
Also, saying Lucians ult would do 1400 damage to MFs 1200 is an exaggeration. With a full item build 75% of Lucians ult damage will be over 1400. | ||
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
On August 27 2013 23:32 Ketara wrote: His ult is really strong in 1v1's, imo. Reeeeeeally strong. Not really. Most times just auto-Q-pauto-W-pauto does more damage in same time frame. Say at level 6 you have a DRing and Vamp scepter. Thats 20 bonus AD. auto-Q-pauto-W-pauto is 64+(160+.9x20)+(1.5x64)+(60+.6x20)+(1.5x64) = 506 damage. Ult is (40+.25x20)x(7.5+7.5(0.764)~13 shots = 585 damage. Its literally about the same even at most beneficial level for the ult, but that is with him landing all the shots. | ||
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SagaZ
France3460 Posts
On August 27 2013 20:15 Capped wrote: New Item: Unquestionable Doubt - 5000 Gold Every 3 minutes the active of this item becomes available. Upon use it will select a random ultimate from any game at its disposable and activate upon the entire enemy team. Such effects include but are not limited to. Fizz Shark, FF7 Clouds Omnislash, Naruto's Rasengan and Luffy's Gomu Gomu Gatling Gun. These attacks are instant and unavoidable. They also OHKO all minions within a 3 mile radius. Best idea that came from the last pages. but wits end would still be better than that. <insert completly meaningless an badly understood vague term like first item timings or some random other> | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
On August 27 2013 23:33 iCanada wrote: Not really. Most times just auto-Q-pauto-W-pauto does more damage in same time frame. You act like he has to choose between one or the other. The range on Lucians ult shots is 1400. You start the fight off with your auto-Q-auto-W-auto burst, then dash to a position where you're at about 1000 range of your opponent, activate ult and follow his movements. It's not hard to follow 1 person unless they have some sort of dash ability, which they've probably already used to get onto you or away from you at that point. | ||
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