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On July 30 2013 14:28 Scip wrote:
No, you don't need to be ahead to get oracles, and I agree that you generally see them too late in EU or NA games I've seen.
What you do have to be ahead for is splitpushing mid+sidelane for the purpose of taking their creep camps.
If you can clear waves quickly you can shove your waves to the tower, and then send a carry to take wraiths if at mid t2, golem at top t2 and wolves at bot t2 (if on blue). you are close enough to take advantage of these camps while maintaining pressure. you don't NEED to split push to force defensive postures, as long as you routinely keep the waves on the enemies side. and like i said split pushing is generall a reactionary measure for pick and push.
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Hey TL
Just wanted to tell y'all that I'm now in Gold 1. I recently got a computer that can stay at 60 fps around in teamfights. When i used to play with a laptop that might get 9 in teamfights. I have had a goal of going to diamond to stream and try to make a living off it. I would also need to upgrade my comp a bit before I am able to stream. But I just jumped 5 tiers from silver 1 to gold 1 and feeling confident that i can get into plat (inb4 i hit a giant wall  )
TL has taught me alot of things whether its the theory crafting of Yango, or the musing of our high elo players, or just knowledge imparted to people that want to learn. I am putting my all into this and I would love your support. Whether it would be advice, a practice partner, Or just a GIT HUR DONEEE!!!!
Thanks TL :3
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On July 30 2013 14:54 jaybrundage wrote:Hey TL Just wanted to tell y'all that I'm now in Gold 1. I recently got a computer that can stay at 60 fps around in teamfights. When i used to play with a laptop that might get 9 in teamfights. I have had a goal of going to diamond to stream and try to make a living off it. I would also need to upgrade my comp a bit before I am able to stream. But I just jumped 5 tiers from silver 1 to gold 1 and feeling confident that i can get into plat (inb4 i hit a giant wall ) TL has taught me alot of things whether its the theory crafting of Yango, or the musing of our high elo players, or just knowledge imparted to people that want to learn. I am putting my all into this and I would love your support. Whether it would be advice, a practice partner, Or just a GIT HUR DONEEE!!!! Thanks TL :3
Why would you make this post when you got Gold 1. Go get Platinum 5 you underachiever!
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On July 30 2013 15:04 HazMat wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 14:54 jaybrundage wrote:Hey TL Just wanted to tell y'all that I'm now in Gold 1. I recently got a computer that can stay at 60 fps around in teamfights. When i used to play with a laptop that might get 9 in teamfights. I have had a goal of going to diamond to stream and try to make a living off it. I would also need to upgrade my comp a bit before I am able to stream. But I just jumped 5 tiers from silver 1 to gold 1 and feeling confident that i can get into plat (inb4 i hit a giant wall ) TL has taught me alot of things whether its the theory crafting of Yango, or the musing of our high elo players, or just knowledge imparted to people that want to learn. I am putting my all into this and I would love your support. Whether it would be advice, a practice partner, Or just a GIT HUR DONEEE!!!! Thanks TL :3 Why would you make this post when you got Gold 1. Go get Platinum 5 you underachiever!
FINE GOSH cant have a sentimental moment T_T
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On July 30 2013 15:10 jaybrundage wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 15:04 HazMat wrote:On July 30 2013 14:54 jaybrundage wrote:Hey TL Just wanted to tell y'all that I'm now in Gold 1. I recently got a computer that can stay at 60 fps around in teamfights. When i used to play with a laptop that might get 9 in teamfights. I have had a goal of going to diamond to stream and try to make a living off it. I would also need to upgrade my comp a bit before I am able to stream. But I just jumped 5 tiers from silver 1 to gold 1 and feeling confident that i can get into plat (inb4 i hit a giant wall ) TL has taught me alot of things whether its the theory crafting of Yango, or the musing of our high elo players, or just knowledge imparted to people that want to learn. I am putting my all into this and I would love your support. Whether it would be advice, a practice partner, Or just a GIT HUR DONEEE!!!! Thanks TL :3 Why would you make this post when you got Gold 1. Go get Platinum 5 you underachiever! FINE GOSH cant have a sentimental moment T_T
Not today.
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On July 30 2013 14:33 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 14:28 Scip wrote:
No, you don't need to be ahead to get oracles, and I agree that you generally see them too late in EU or NA games I've seen.
What you do have to be ahead for is splitpushing mid+sidelane for the purpose of taking their creep camps. If you can clear waves quickly you can shove your waves to the tower, and then send a carry to take wraiths if at mid t2, golem at top t2 and wolves at bot t2 (if on blue). you are close enough to take advantage of these camps while maintaining pressure. you don't NEED to split push to force defensive postures, as long as you routinely keep the waves on the enemies side. and like i said split pushing is generall a reactionary measure for pick and push.
Not really true. If you're behind and trying to split push, a competent team will simply group and force objectives.
The reason why split pushing works is because your split pusher is so strong that it forces the other team to send 2 people to defend the lane the split pusher is in. That lets the split pusher's team force objectives due to a numbers advantage. On top of that, split pushing to take secure smaller camps, you also want to be ahead or have strong skirmishing champions so you can win clashes when the other team reacts. Split pushing isn't really (and shouldn't be) a reactionary measure. Teams that play properly will punish a split push very hard and very easily if they're ahead. The reason why you sometimes see split pushing as a defensive/reactionary measure in solo q is because solo q teams are bad at recognizing when they're sufficiently ahead to force an objective and they're also bad at coordination to get objectives.
To circle back to the Skarner discussion, Skarner's heyday and the point where he enjoyed his greatest success was when teams used him comps that aimed to catch and instantly obliterate one (usually squishy) target without burning too many key teamfighting abilities, then forcing an objective with the numbers advantage. Skarner also had reasonably strong jungle control/clear back then since AoE junglers were so efficient.
Now, AoE junglers are no longer as safe/powerful, which exposes Skarner's relatively weak early game. On top of that, the change to Skarner's ult not ignoring flash was imo much more impactful than people realized. Before that change, a Skarner gank was essentially always successful if you avoid the ward. Either you burned your flash and Skarner still has ult, or you died, or you burned your flash and you died. Now, if you have the reflexes (and ping) you should never ever die to a Skarner ult. His ult has a significant enough cast time that even if you don't see him coming, as long as you're not locked down prior to Skarner coming into the lane, you can and should escape the gank (assuming reflexes/ping which is almost a given at high levels of play).
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On July 30 2013 15:49 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 14:33 PrinceXizor wrote:On July 30 2013 14:28 Scip wrote:
No, you don't need to be ahead to get oracles, and I agree that you generally see them too late in EU or NA games I've seen.
What you do have to be ahead for is splitpushing mid+sidelane for the purpose of taking their creep camps. If you can clear waves quickly you can shove your waves to the tower, and then send a carry to take wraiths if at mid t2, golem at top t2 and wolves at bot t2 (if on blue). you are close enough to take advantage of these camps while maintaining pressure. you don't NEED to split push to force defensive postures, as long as you routinely keep the waves on the enemies side. and like i said split pushing is generall a reactionary measure for pick and push. Not really true. If you're behind and trying to split push, a competent team will simply group and force objectives. The reason why split pushing works is because your split pusher is so strong that it forces the other team to send 2 people to defend the lane the split pusher is in. That lets the split pusher's team force objectives due to a numbers advantage. On top of that, split pushing to take secure smaller camps, you also want to be ahead or have strong skirmishing champions so you can win clashes when the other team reacts. Split pushing isn't really (and shouldn't be) a reactionary measure. Teams that play properly will punish a split push very hard and very easily if they're ahead. The reason why you sometimes see split pushing as a defensive/reactionary measure in solo q is because solo q teams are bad at recognizing when they're sufficiently ahead to force an objective and they're also bad at coordination to get objectives.
Can... can you go back and reread everything we've been talking about so you understand the context of it and stop posting silly things like this?
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On July 30 2013 15:55 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 15:49 Ryuu314 wrote:On July 30 2013 14:33 PrinceXizor wrote:On July 30 2013 14:28 Scip wrote:
No, you don't need to be ahead to get oracles, and I agree that you generally see them too late in EU or NA games I've seen.
What you do have to be ahead for is splitpushing mid+sidelane for the purpose of taking their creep camps. If you can clear waves quickly you can shove your waves to the tower, and then send a carry to take wraiths if at mid t2, golem at top t2 and wolves at bot t2 (if on blue). you are close enough to take advantage of these camps while maintaining pressure. you don't NEED to split push to force defensive postures, as long as you routinely keep the waves on the enemies side. and like i said split pushing is generall a reactionary measure for pick and push. Not really true. If you're behind and trying to split push, a competent team will simply group and force objectives. The reason why split pushing works is because your split pusher is so strong that it forces the other team to send 2 people to defend the lane the split pusher is in. That lets the split pusher's team force objectives due to a numbers advantage. On top of that, split pushing to take secure smaller camps, you also want to be ahead or have strong skirmishing champions so you can win clashes when the other team reacts. Split pushing isn't really (and shouldn't be) a reactionary measure. Teams that play properly will punish a split push very hard and very easily if they're ahead. The reason why you sometimes see split pushing as a defensive/reactionary measure in solo q is because solo q teams are bad at recognizing when they're sufficiently ahead to force an objective and they're also bad at coordination to get objectives. Can... can you go back and reread everything we've been talking about so you understand the context of it and stop posting silly things like this?
You're talking about the early game, specifically with regards to Skarner, and what I said still applies.
Actually, no, you're not just talking about early game. You're talking about the game in general.
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On July 30 2013 15:58 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 15:55 PrinceXizor wrote:On July 30 2013 15:49 Ryuu314 wrote:On July 30 2013 14:33 PrinceXizor wrote:On July 30 2013 14:28 Scip wrote:
No, you don't need to be ahead to get oracles, and I agree that you generally see them too late in EU or NA games I've seen.
What you do have to be ahead for is splitpushing mid+sidelane for the purpose of taking their creep camps. If you can clear waves quickly you can shove your waves to the tower, and then send a carry to take wraiths if at mid t2, golem at top t2 and wolves at bot t2 (if on blue). you are close enough to take advantage of these camps while maintaining pressure. you don't NEED to split push to force defensive postures, as long as you routinely keep the waves on the enemies side. and like i said split pushing is generall a reactionary measure for pick and push. Not really true. If you're behind and trying to split push, a competent team will simply group and force objectives. The reason why split pushing works is because your split pusher is so strong that it forces the other team to send 2 people to defend the lane the split pusher is in. That lets the split pusher's team force objectives due to a numbers advantage. On top of that, split pushing to take secure smaller camps, you also want to be ahead or have strong skirmishing champions so you can win clashes when the other team reacts. Split pushing isn't really (and shouldn't be) a reactionary measure. Teams that play properly will punish a split push very hard and very easily if they're ahead. The reason why you sometimes see split pushing as a defensive/reactionary measure in solo q is because solo q teams are bad at recognizing when they're sufficiently ahead to force an objective and they're also bad at coordination to get objectives. Can... can you go back and reread everything we've been talking about so you understand the context of it and stop posting silly things like this? You're talking about the early game, specifically with regards to Skarner, and what I said still applies.
no..it doesn't.
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On July 30 2013 15:59 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 15:58 Ryuu314 wrote:On July 30 2013 15:55 PrinceXizor wrote:On July 30 2013 15:49 Ryuu314 wrote:On July 30 2013 14:33 PrinceXizor wrote:On July 30 2013 14:28 Scip wrote:
No, you don't need to be ahead to get oracles, and I agree that you generally see them too late in EU or NA games I've seen.
What you do have to be ahead for is splitpushing mid+sidelane for the purpose of taking their creep camps. If you can clear waves quickly you can shove your waves to the tower, and then send a carry to take wraiths if at mid t2, golem at top t2 and wolves at bot t2 (if on blue). you are close enough to take advantage of these camps while maintaining pressure. you don't NEED to split push to force defensive postures, as long as you routinely keep the waves on the enemies side. and like i said split pushing is generall a reactionary measure for pick and push. Not really true. If you're behind and trying to split push, a competent team will simply group and force objectives. The reason why split pushing works is because your split pusher is so strong that it forces the other team to send 2 people to defend the lane the split pusher is in. That lets the split pusher's team force objectives due to a numbers advantage. On top of that, split pushing to take secure smaller camps, you also want to be ahead or have strong skirmishing champions so you can win clashes when the other team reacts. Split pushing isn't really (and shouldn't be) a reactionary measure. Teams that play properly will punish a split push very hard and very easily if they're ahead. The reason why you sometimes see split pushing as a defensive/reactionary measure in solo q is because solo q teams are bad at recognizing when they're sufficiently ahead to force an objective and they're also bad at coordination to get objectives. Can... can you go back and reread everything we've been talking about so you understand the context of it and stop posting silly things like this? You're talking about the early game, specifically with regards to Skarner, and what I said still applies. no..it doesn't.
Scip's first post on the previous page says a lot of what I just said in the post you originally responded to.
+ Show Spoiler +On July 30 2013 13:36 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 13:21 Scip wrote:
The way you play against a splitpushing strategy (which seems to be what you're describing there) is that you play defensively until you are strong enough to take baron quickly. Which is exactly why I am confused that you would reccomend Skarner for that composition.
Skarner has none of the waveclear you consider important, none of the poke that is oftentime used in 4+1 comps and nothing to help his team disengage. He is one of the worst Baron taking junglers in the game and due to lack of AoE he is one of the worst for teamfights around Baron that you WILL have to fight or distract unless you manage to snowball out of control.
I guess you could suggest using Skarner for picking off the solo laner at an opportune time, creating 3-2 vs 4-1 all of a sudden, but there are better choices for that too. Evelynn is the most important one, but Nocturne, the original champion used for this purpose, is likely going to do better too. split pushing is uniquely different from pick and push in that the split pushing isn't the goal, but a tool used to force mistakes. you see the enemy grouping up and preventing the pick, so you turtle up and split push hoping they split people off to try to stop you this leads to a pick-off from skarner + 1-2 provided you react well. more often than not they will try to push the tower to trade, hoping that you instead make the mistake of getting caught as 4, or take a goal and accept a minor defeat. With your ward advantage granting you have relative safety in this. unless the enemy goes as a group to remove wards, you are going to have this advantage since the strength of your sudden picks on weaker characters is so strong. Its a way to play the game. Things like nocturne/eve can do similar things to skarner as well, they fill the same roles skarner does with minor variations on the theme. Eve and skarner both have separate advantages that let the choice of a jungler to fill the role be determined on your plan going into the game. Evelynn is better at earlier parts in the game thanks to her passive granting her the ability to bypass regular wards, but significantly worse at picking off a lone dewarder (as evelynn cannot attempt the pick nearly as often. a failed pick often means a lost tower with little to no trade) Nocturne has a stronger laning timing and team fighting, but significantly worse at actually causing the pick to end in success, even if he can attempt the pick relatively as often.
This post of yours then talks about catching people via forcing mistakes through split pushing, which isn't entirely true and I addressed why that's not true in my original post.
You then go on about wards which I don't really address. Then you say split pushing is a reactionary measure in the first post on this page, which I do address in saying that it's false.
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Uh. scips first post on the last page is him not understanding what i was talking about. i then clarified, and you quoted by talking about split pushing (as he did), which is not what is going on at all in this part of the discussion. so, no what you said is irrelevant. You addressed why split pushing as a strategy doesn't work to force mistakes, but did not mention or seem to understand why or when i suggested split pushing as a tactic in a pick and push strategy. Go back and re-read.
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Now that I've gotten Ali W->Q down to at least 4/5 times, I've been playing him like every game now.
Forgot how much fun he is ever since I've been on 100% Thresh/Lulu.
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On July 30 2013 16:06 PrinceXizor wrote:
Uh. scips first post on the last page is him not understanding what i was talking about. i then clarified, and you quoted by talking about split pushing (as he did), which is not what is going on at all in this part of the discussion. so, no what you said is irrelevant. You addressed why split pushing as a strategy doesn't work to force mistakes, but did not mention or seem to understand why or when i suggested split pushing in a pick and push strategy. Go back and re-read.
You said that you can split push to force a mistake out from the enemy team so you can pick someone off and then get an objective. Except if you're split pushing and you're not ahead, you run the risk of the enemy grouping up and straight up ignoring your split push or to overpower one of the lanes you're split pushing.
Unless you're for some reason talking about the laning phase in which split pushing doesn't really even make sense.
Also, you said that Eve is "significantly worse at picking off a lone dewarder [than Skarner]," but I'm not convinced that's actually true, especially since a lone dewarder is going to be a support the majority of the times. Eve's damage is quite high and has no problem picking people off, especially if she gets snowballed early.
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On July 30 2013 16:10 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 16:06 PrinceXizor wrote:
Uh. scips first post on the last page is him not understanding what i was talking about. i then clarified, and you quoted by talking about split pushing (as he did), which is not what is going on at all in this part of the discussion. so, no what you said is irrelevant. You addressed why split pushing as a strategy doesn't work to force mistakes, but did not mention or seem to understand why or when i suggested split pushing in a pick and push strategy. Go back and re-read. You said that you can split push to force a mistake out from the enemy team so you can pick someone off and then get an objective. Except if you're split pushing and you're not ahead, you run the risk of the enemy grouping up and straight up ignoring your split push or to overpower one of the lanes you're split pushing. Unless you're for some reason talking about the laning phase in which split pushing doesn't really even make sense.
Look. Gonna summarize everything for you so you get it. if your overall strategy is to find a way to get a quick pick off and using that down time to force towers down quicker than normal and maintain map control. you are using characters designed for these easy picks, you are going to be playing down your team fighting ability.
SO in response to your map control from wards and the enemies fear of picks they can either cede map control and turtle, which allows you easily keep lanes pushed at the enemy and then shove into towers with quick clearing characters while you remove wards in the enemy jungle and take camps nearby to where you are shoving. eventually the enemy team will have to defend another lane which you then shove one more time and continue clearing the jungle to outfarm the enemy team slowly this way, or just take a tower and mission accomplished this option is acceptable if the enemy team is close to their next big item, and they can then move on a timing and take control back otherwise its less than effective.
The Other two options pick and push comps give the team is to attempt to regain ward control. they can do this by moving as a team through the jungles and lanes dewarding, which allows you to take towers as a team rather easily. OR do this with a single support role that buys an oracles. this allows you to react and get a pick and proceed to then, PUSH. as the strategy would suggest.
the final option is to group up and push since the enemy knows that they have a better team fight and want you to react to them. So, you have the choice to respond to this as a pick and push team, by grouping as well and hoping to outplay the enemy in a team fight due to their poor positioning, OR to send a character with teleporting capabilities off to split push to at worst trade evenly (unless your team makes a mistake), at best your mass clear keeps them off the tower enough that they try to stop the split push, which you see coming due to the pick and push's superior ward control as a whole for thestrategy,
This allows you to again, attempt the pick -> push theme. in the middle you again outfarm them due to only 1-2 champions needed to be near the turret to clear waves and one guy can clear a camp while the split pusher is obviously getting another lanes farm and since most of us figured out that 2> 1 this ends in an advantage for the pick and push team.
Now that you are caught up, you tried to respond to the comments about the enemy ceding map control and allowing you to shove on their tower, by talking about split pushing, which is actually not happening.
On July 30 2013 16:10 Ryuu314 wrote:
Also, you said that Eve is "significantly worse at picking off a lone dewarder [than Skarner]," but I'm not convinced that's actually true, especially since a lone dewarder is going to be a support the majority of the times. Eve's damage is quite high and has no problem picking people off, especially if she gets snowballed early.
you gonna quote the reason, or try to prove something false by removing it from any context. Eve cannot attempt a pick as often as skarner can, because of cooldowns, this leads to eve if failing (either due to a eve mistake or a strong flash/stun/response of the enemy team), having less of a threat as skarner in pick and push strategies. 1 mistake and they can get control back rather quickly in the downtime, meanwhile skarner can rush his ulti back up rather quickly, and recover the minor map control you lost pretty easily.
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You talked about split pushing in your final scenario, which is precisely what I addressed (the only bit I addressed). If you're not ahead or if you don't have a strong split pusher, what's stopping them from simply sending 1 person to stop the split push and have the other 4 do w/e? You can't exactly pick off that lone person stopping them if they recall and just walk through the lane under protection of their towers. You also can't subsequently engage on the enemy team since you have no element of surprise, which a Skarner team needs, as at least 3 of your team members are visible since in your scenario they're shoving a lane as a group, all 3 of whom likely have the majority of the team's gold. The enemy team is also grouped as 4. You also are at a disadvantage in getting baron 'cause Skarner is not that great at getting baron. Your only hope is the enemy makes a serious positioning error, while they have full view of 3 members of your team, for you to capitalize on.
You mention your team having a teleporting champion, but then the strategy works not because of Skarner, but because you have Shen/a champ with teleport.
If your team/Skarner sans the split pusher vanishes from the map, any competent team will know, even without wards, that you're attempting a pick or doing dragon/baron.
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On July 30 2013 16:35 Ryuu314 wrote:
You talked about split pushing in your final scenario, which is precisely what I addressed (the only bit I addressed). If you're not ahead or if you don't have a strong split pusher, what's stopping them from simply sending 1 person to stop the split push and have the other 4 do w/e? You can't exactly pick off that lone person stopping them if they recall and just walk through the lane under protection of their towers. You also can't subsequently engage on the enemy team since you have no element of surprise, which a Skarner team needs, as at least 3 of your team members are visible since in your scenario they're shoving a lane as a group, all 3 of whom likely have the majority of the team's gold. The enemy team is also grouped as 4. You also are at a disadvantage in getting baron 'cause Skarner is not that great at getting baron. Your only hope is the enemy makes a serious positioning error, while they have full view of 3 members of your team, for you to capitalize on.
You mention your team having a teleporting champion, but then the strategy works not because of Skarner, but because you have Shen/a champ with teleport.
If your team/Skarner sans the split pusher vanishes from the map, any competent team will know, even without wards, that you're attempting a pick or doing dragon/baron.
But.... i wasn't talking about split pushing. i was telling scip i wasn't talking about split pushing. which is what i don't think you understand.
scip said "well split pushing doesn't work" and i then responded with "not talking about split pushing" and you responded to what i said by saying "yeah but split pushing doesn't work".... and if the only bit you addressed was something i said i wasn't talking about, then whats the point of you posting at all.
anyway talking about this with you is like trying to have a debate with a magic eight ball. so i'm not gonna bother.
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On July 30 2013 16:24 PrinceXizor wrote:
OR to send a character with teleporting capabilities off to split push to at worst trade evenly (unless your team makes a mistake), at best your mass clear keeps them off the tower enough that they try to stop the split push, which you see coming due to the pick and push's superior ward control as a whole for thestrategy,
This allows you to again, attempt the pick -> push theme. in the middle you again outfarm them due to only 1-2 champions needed to be near the turret to clear waves and one guy can clear a camp while the split pusher is obviously getting another lanes farm and since most of us figured out that 2> 1 this ends in an advantage for the pick and push team.
I'm saying that this option does not work unless you're ahead. Unless you have a completely different definition of split pushing, what you described here sounds a damn lot like split pushing to me.
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On July 30 2013 16:40 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 16:24 PrinceXizor wrote:
OR to send a character with teleporting capabilities off to split push to at worst trade evenly (unless your team makes a mistake), at best your mass clear keeps them off the tower enough that they try to stop the split push, which you see coming due to the pick and push's superior ward control as a whole for thestrategy,
This allows you to again, attempt the pick -> push theme. in the middle you again outfarm them due to only 1-2 champions needed to be near the turret to clear waves and one guy can clear a camp while the split pusher is obviously getting another lanes farm and since most of us figured out that 2> 1 this ends in an advantage for the pick and push team.
I'm saying that this option does not work unless you're ahead. Unless you have a completely different definition of split pushing, what you described here sounds a damn lot like split pushing to me.
... but we weren't talking about that part.. i don't even. what the fuck are you trying to say? trading is a thing dude. they've already committed to trying to push on a team with excellent wave clear and decent range, them disengaging to try to stop the split push is a favorable outcome and what you want.
literally the entire damn point of pick and push is to abuse a 5v4 window. so if they split anyone off at all to deal with your split push, you get to kill them or they recall and you teleport in and kill the enemy 4 with your 5. OR they run off and cede map control to you again. So it doesn't matter if you aren't ahead, as long as you aren't drastically behind, which was the entire premise of the discussion. if they respond to your split push that you decided to do based on their group and push strategy, if they respond at all. its a positive, if they don't respond you trade slightly favorable.
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On July 30 2013 16:42 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 16:40 Ryuu314 wrote:On July 30 2013 16:24 PrinceXizor wrote:
OR to send a character with teleporting capabilities off to split push to at worst trade evenly (unless your team makes a mistake), at best your mass clear keeps them off the tower enough that they try to stop the split push, which you see coming due to the pick and push's superior ward control as a whole for thestrategy,
This allows you to again, attempt the pick -> push theme. in the middle you again outfarm them due to only 1-2 champions needed to be near the turret to clear waves and one guy can clear a camp while the split pusher is obviously getting another lanes farm and since most of us figured out that 2> 1 this ends in an advantage for the pick and push team.
I'm saying that this option does not work unless you're ahead. Unless you have a completely different definition of split pushing, what you described here sounds a damn lot like split pushing to me. ... but we weren't talking about that part.. i don't even. what the fuck are you trying to say? trading is a thing dude. they've already committed to trying to push on a team with excellent wave clear and decent range, them disengaging to try to stop the split push is a favorable outcome and what you want. literally the entire damn point of pick and push is to abuse a 5v4 window. so if they split anyone off at all to deal with your split push, you get to kill them or they recall and you teleport in and kill the enemy 4 with your 5. OR they run off and cede map control to you again. So it doesn't matter if you aren't ahead, as long as you aren't drastically behind, which was the entire premise of the discussion. if they respond to your split push that you decided to do based on their group and push strategy, if they respond at all. its a positive, if they don't respond you trade slightly favorable.
If they split someone off to stop your split push it's 1v1 and 4v4, how will you "just kill them" when prior to splitting off, all the members of your team is in full view of the enemy and Skarner doesn't exactly have the greatest engage when you don't have the element of surprise. If you teleport in, that's a function of your champ with teleport.
On top of that, what's stopping them from forcing a non-tower objective, especially if they have a hard engage like Malphite? Skarner isn't exactly great at baron dancing.
Look, I get what you're trying to say. Skarner comps were a thing back in Season 2 and were very competitive for a while. The problem is that Skarner comps also relied on Skarner being able to snowball an early map control lead, which he simply doesn't do well any more. Skarner comps don't do as well if you don't have absolute map control, which is not possible unless you win the early game, which Skarner does not lend himself to doing well.
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Okay now i know exactly that you aren't reading anything. so i don't have to respond. lol reread this page i swear you'll find the answer to literally everything. if you can't figure it out i won't be able to explain it to you.
maybe someday you can figure out that you can buy this little pink thing for 400 gold that allows you to get map control in an evenly matched game, so there is no snowballing involved.
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|
EPT
