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onlywonderboy
United States23745 Posts
On July 30 2013 12:06 PrinceXizor wrote: When people are wrong they are wrong, Like so: Ashe is better as AP than AD. inb4 someone claims that AD is actually better for her. It was just a joke :p | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
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obesechicken13
United States10467 Posts
On July 30 2013 12:04 obesechicken13 wrote: Skarner's pick rate is so low I feel like the only people playing him, main him. Addition: when people play their mains I think they should have a slightly higher chance of winning because they are better on their mains because they have more experience with their mains. So when a champion has 50% win rate but the only people who play him are people who main him, he is underpowered. I can't prove that Skarner is underpowered, but without the ability to pull people who had flashed, Skarner loses a lot of his ability to make plays and a lot of his entertaining factors. He's as boring as pre-remake Trundle now. Even if Skarner is balanced, he is boring and this is reflected in his pick rate. | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
me too.. xD i hope that came across. On July 30 2013 12:13 obesechicken13 wrote: Addition: when people play their mains I think they should have a slightly higher chance of winning because they are better on their mains because they have more experience with their mains. So when a champion has 50% win rate but the only people who play him are people who main him, he is underpowered. I can't prove that Skarner is underpowered, but without the ability to pull people who had flashed, Skarner loses a lot of his ability to make plays and a lot of his entertaining factors. He's as boring as pre-remake Trundle now. Even if Skarner is balanced, he is boring and this is reflected in his pick rate. I feel like using solo Queue to determine balance of heroes for competitive play is pretty terrible of an idea. On July 30 2013 12:12 TheYango wrote: By base numbers, Fracture is a pretty decent skill (240 damage for 70 mana in an AoE with an attached heal, on a 10s CD for a hero with a cooldown-reducing passive). The only problem is that it's kind of clumsy with Skarner's kit because a nuke like that is something you'd want to level early, but can't because Skarner is so Q-centric. And because the hero is pretty unlikely to buy enough AP to make its scaling work out, leveling it 2nd or 3rd makes it feel tacked on. Its significantly less clumsy if you think about what it enables skarner to do. Ideally skarner makes an auto attack literally every time his auto attack is off cooldown. Maintaining yourself post 6 at consistently high health level lets you stay auto attacking longer, reducing the cooldown on your ultimate dramatically. And since worrying about that goal of constantly being attacking doesn't matter prior to 6 maxing fracture second fits into that niche pretty effectively. | ||
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onlywonderboy
United States23745 Posts
On July 30 2013 12:18 PrinceXizor wrote: me too.. xD i hope that came across. I feel like using solo Queue to determine balance of heroes for competitive play is pretty terrible of an idea. Its significantly less clumsy if you think about what it enables skarner to do. Ideally skarner makes an auto attack literally every time his auto attack is off cooldown. Maintaining yourself post 6 at consistently high health level lets you stay auto attacking longer, reducing the cooldown on your ultimate dramatically. And since worrying about that goal of constantly being attacking doesn't matter prior to 6 maxing fracture second fits into that niche pretty effectively. Yep, I figured. Unless you really wanna argue about AP Ashe. jk | ||
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Scip
Czech Republic11293 Posts
On July 30 2013 11:11 PrinceXizor wrote: Skarner is honestly fine. if you give him anything he'd only really need a slightly faster base attack speed. riot is confusing meta issues with balance issues again. No, Skarner is absolutely terrible and outclassed in almost every single way by several characters. He absolutely fails as a melee bruiser without jumps due to his extreme squishiness caused by not having any significant defensive skills (W will get used just about once in an even numbers fight). He is completely eclipsed by both Mundo, who provides significantly more tankiness and damage alongside kiting potential as a special perk, in addition to his more robust midgame and almost unrivaled objective control, and he is shamed into nothingness by Nunu, whose teamfights and jungle control superiority dwarfs the already tenuous claim of Skarner to better post6 ganks. Let me explain why Skarner ganks aren't as good as you think. Before lvl6, it's obvious, it's because he is ridiculously weak, which limits both the timings when he can gank and from which positions,and lack of jump and hard CC makes a successful pre6 middle lane gank no more likely than your dream threesome with Miley Cyrus and Georgy Clooney. Then you hit lvl6, and feel like a god, until you realize that many junglers are stronger than you 2v2 and 3v3. Eve, Elise, Lee Sin, Nunu, Mundo and more. They all kill you should you have the insolence of trying to gank the lane they guard at the time. That being said, this IS your strongest moment. You can maybe pull a few ganks off, you can push lanes reasonably well, so that is useful too. This part of the game is alright. And then come things like teamfights. You see, Skarner is really bad at teamfights. He can't initiate them and he can't poke, so you just kinda have to stay further back and wait for either side to initiate. Which is fine, a lot of junglers do that, most of all Nunu the jungle god, so that is not the worst thing. Even once the teamfight starts though, you are pretty weak indeed. Your pathetic 40% slow is no match for the 3 jump AoE CC shit your enemy team has probably lubed up your marksman's future with, and while peeling with your ultimate is a cute idea, it doesn't work in practice because you are so goddamn squishy. Flash ultimate the enemy carry is a good idea, and it can even work, but compared to options other junglers have in teamfights it is nothing more than a silly gimmick, especially considering how little you've given to your team for the first 8 levels or so. Also, Skarner's E is absolutely terrible, the reason being mostly the mana cost. That is honestly why you shouldnt level it until you have no other option. Even if you do happen to get blue buffs, the difference between W and E aren't that great, because of the usefulness of movement speed of W, the multiplicative nature of leveling W and the hilariously long casting animation of E. As PrinceXizor also correctly mentions further down, Skarner is one of the worst possible laneswap junglers, as he has no range, no jumps and very weak fighting strength for the entirety of early game. | ||
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DURRHURRDERP
Canada929 Posts
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canikizu
4860 Posts
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Scip
Czech Republic11293 Posts
On July 30 2013 12:34 canikizu wrote: Instead of Jungler, can you run Skarner as top laner? no WHY he is so bad at every single point in the game, why would you want to run his as a top laner. If you want a top laner who has no jumps but can pull the enemy into your team, play Volibear. At least he doesn't have mana problems. I hope I don't sound too emotional, just so you know, my anger isn't directed towards you, but towards the heavens. Oh mighty gods, why have you forsaken Skarner?!? | ||
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DURRHURRDERP
Canada929 Posts
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
but his strength, is still as strong as it needs to be in pick and push. | ||
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cascades
Singapore6122 Posts
Dandy: Skarner is as viable as jungle Donger. | ||
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Scip
Czech Republic11293 Posts
You are right that I neglected to mention how horrendously bad he is at laneswaps though. I shall edit it in the big post. | ||
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Capricious_LoL
United States222 Posts
However, I think I'm at a point where I must painstakingly go through my games and relive all the moments, particularly when things go awry, to advance to the next level. Previously, I had never actually watched replays of my games other than VODs from popular streamers, and those were just entertaining but not really educational. | ||
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Klonopin
95 Posts
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Scip
Czech Republic11293 Posts
On July 30 2013 12:56 Klonopin wrote: i mained skarner in s2 with a very high win % and play him pretty often in s3 (like 11-3 in s3). im not going to write a book about why i still like him but I do and I feel like you guys are underrating him quite a bit. He might be a poor choice for competitive play, but for solo que he is okay to quite good. It is sad that you do not wish to elaborate on as to why do you like him, that would add something to the discussion. | ||
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zer0das
United States8519 Posts
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On July 30 2013 12:51 Scip wrote: I would dare saying that you are overly optimistic in assuming it is that easy to pick people off. And, as you mentioned, the fast pushing strategy is indeed dominant, and there are reasons for it. You are right that I neglected to mention how horrendously bad he is at laneswaps though. I shall edit it in the big post. After T1's are gone and you have your wards up at entrances to jungles, your enemies' choices are to cede control of the map, push as a team or send one of their supports to counter those wards. The of the first two options, only one is really viable. and the third is how picks can happen, so vs a competent pick and push composition, you would realistically tend toward group and push. and while this limits skarners usefulness at picks and highlights his weakness as a straight teamfighting character, knowing that you will likely be facing a group and push style in the mid and later mid game, you can draft for this occurance. fast clearing characters with good burst and split pushing characters allow you to thrive against that group and push strategy. Combine with supports like janna/lulu or APs like gragas/lux/ziggs its not unheard of to stall out any push that doesn't involve a player tanking hits while a carry attacks the tower. And if a player is tanking hits they are required to be in poorer positioning against such longer range characters. its a much slower way to take a tower down, and a far more dangerous way. opening your split pushing up to take towers in trade easily. all while your team is net benefiting in gold in comparsion. These are favorable situations to be in regardless of relative team fighting strengths. Making sure that off of every t2 they take (or even t1's if you manage to save some earlier) you trade your tower and a lane of farm for at least one tower and two lanes of farm as well as some closeby jungle camps. These types of strategies are far more patience based than others of popularity of late, but if you manage to save even ONE t1 by this point, your team is at a drastic advantage from the style of play. And even though its a slowly creeping lead, its a lead nonetheless. because something isn't popular doesn't make it impossible, nor significantly worse. | ||
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
On July 30 2013 13:06 PrinceXizor wrote: After T1's are gone and you have your wards up at entrances to jungles, your enemies' choices are to cede control of the map, push as a team or send one of their supports to counter those wards. The of the first two options, only one is really viable. and the third is how picks can happen, so vs a competent pick and push composition, you would realistically tend toward group and push. and while this limits skarners usefulness at picks and highlights his weakness as a straight teamfighting character, knowing that you will likely be facing a group and push style in the mid and later mid game, you can draft for this occurance. fast clearing characters with good burst and split pushing characters allow you to thrive against that group and push strategy. Combine with supports like janna/lulu or APs like gragas/lux/ziggs its not unheard of to stall out any push that doesn't involve a player tanking hits while a carry attacks the tower. And if a player is tanking hits they are required to be in poorer positioning against such longer range characters. its a much slower way to take a tower down, and a far more dangerous way. opening your split pushing up to take towers in trade easily. all while your team is net benefiting in gold in comparsion. These are favorable situations to be in regardless of relative team fighting strengths. Making sure that off of every t2 they take (or even t1's if you manage to save some earlier) you trade your tower and a lane of farm for at least one tower and two lanes of farm as well as some closeby jungle camps. These types of strategies are far more patience based than others of popularity of late, but if you manage to save even ONE t1 by this point, your team is at a drastic advantage from the style of play. And even though its a slowly creeping lead, its a lead nonetheless. because something isn't popular doesn't make it impossible, nor significantly worse. This seems to assume that your team is at an advantage, and even then that Skarner can be *carried* by drafting appropriately but another champ would ultimately be a better option. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35165 Posts
On July 30 2013 04:58 Complete wrote: why the hell would you have hybrid penetration runes on taric... You're one post too far down this chain. | ||
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