EPTYeah, this game is usually less fun when you're behind :p
Doesn't mean you shouldn't have to adapt to the way the game is unfolding.
[Patch 3.09: Spirit Guard Udyr Patch] General Discussion -…
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onlywonderboy
United States23745 Posts
Yeah, this game is usually less fun when you're behind :p Doesn't mean you shouldn't have to adapt to the way the game is unfolding. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On July 17 2013 11:16 UniversalSnip wrote: that sounds like crazy fun gameplay As opposed to where item timings don't drive gameplay, and your teamfight strength is always directly proportional to the gold input into your items? In that case the losing team never comes back because with less gold they're always weaker. Item timing-based power spikes allow a team that's behind to use a temporary timing advantage from their items to take a key fight on even footing. The same doesn't hold true in the reverse case because the losing team already won't fight when they're behind, so a power spike from an item timing on the winning team doesn't change this unless it allows them to break high ground or take Baron--neither of which are relevant because the Aegis timing isn't strong enough to enable either of those. | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
If anything, the game needs to encourage timing-based play. It adds another element to the game. Some of the greatest games/players in BW were because of timings and how they utilized them. + Show Spoiler + EEHAN TIMINGGGGGGG that shit needs to come back D: | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On July 17 2013 10:58 ketchup wrote: I guess the fanboy portion died off? Your signature is all lies! In all reality, as long as you don't miss smites like St.V, I doubt people will care. When you do miss those smites, I'm certain you'll get a st.v reference at least once, so it might be worth it. Still Curse fan; just been also thoroughly enjoying the stomping bjergson is giving everyone in EU LCS as well. | ||
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zer0das
United States8519 Posts
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onlywonderboy
United States23745 Posts
On July 17 2013 11:28 zer0das wrote: I'm kind of surprised no one has commented on my Dig flair yet. Tell me I throw games and denigrate me! Please. I actually want it for once. Some sort of validation is all you need! | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On July 17 2013 09:59 c.Deadly wrote: Smash made new posts on his Olaf thread on the official forums http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=39833254#39833254 It seems like he (and Riot, not blaming him directly) are having trouble reconciling Olaf's on paper strength with his actual strength. Especially with statements like: Still trying to find the balance between offering sufficient counterplay to opponents and providing the Olaf player with what they want out of Ragnarok Counterplay? Like the counterplay to Malphite ult (aka flashing out of it)? Why is Olaf different? Is dodging axes too much to ask?Moreover, just from a numbers standpoint there appears to be a disconnect. His passive is Numerically quite strong, but in application quite mediocre. Same with the Attack speed on the ult (which he said is probably being removed). Taking away his scaling with life is also an odd choice because then he becomes more generic-bruiser (because who is going to build a damage item on a melle character? Especially when that melle character loses all his defensive steroids during the 5 seconds he is relevant during teamfights. | ||
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UniversalSnip
9871 Posts
On July 17 2013 11:20 TheYango wrote: As opposed to where item timings don't drive gameplay, and your teamfight strength is always directly proportional to the gold input into your items? considering the item always gets bought that's basically how it is, both teams get a spike when they pick it up. the team that's ahead is gonna get it earlier. it's completely ineffective as a comeback mechanism, it basically just pushes the game to the point where teams are excruciatingly careful to avoid confrontation, which already makes up an embarrassing amount of a pro lol match. just look at the kills per minute compared to a dota match. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
Like right now Aegis feels like a "no-gameplay" option because teams only see it as "the jungler is the only one who buys it, and is the only one who CAN buy it". But if the teamfight timing of an Aegis is as strong as he claims, doesn't that mean that there's a legitimate tradeoff of your AP or AD carry buying the item to win a teamfight now when you're behind, at the cost of potential later power if you don't use the timing to come back into the game? | ||
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dae
Canada1600 Posts
Moreover, just from a numbers standpoint there appears to be a disconnect. His passive is Numerically quite strong, but in application quite mediocre. Same with the Attack speed on the ult (which he said is probably being removed). Taking away his scaling with life is also an odd choice because then he becomes more generic-bruiser (because who is going to build a damage item on a melee character? Especially when that melee character loses all his defensive steroids during the 5 seconds he is relevant during teamfights. Honestly, as someone who mained olaf for a while, I am going to have so much fun building hydra on olaf post patch. Leveling up his w first might actually be a decent options vs melee (probably not, but who knows, I could see e>w>q vs melee). Taking away his health scaling opens up so many build paths, as well as having the free defensive stats on ultimate. It means no no longer have to build him pure tank all game every game, and can instead vary your build depending on what your team needs, and the way the game is going. Havign flat ad on his w means he scales with lifesteal, attack speed, armor pen, better then he did before, and is not just reliant on stacking health, something that seems to be a thing of the past with the stupid amount of % hp damage riot is implementing into the game. Also, outplaying people with axes will be soooo strong... fighting olaf near walls is asking to die now. This also makes him a beast at invading the jungle (assuming your q max) | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On July 17 2013 11:36 UniversalSnip wrote: considering the item always gets bought that's basically how it is, both teams get a spike when they pick it up. the team that's ahead is gonna get it earlier. it's completely ineffective as a comeback mechanism, it basically just pushes the game to the point where teams are excruciatingly careful to avoid confrontation, which already makes up an embarrassing amount of a pro lol match. just look at the kills per minute compared to a dota match. Thats a failure of other items to provide timings, not because of aegis' strength. to quote you, just look at the kills per minute compared to a dota match. now look at large number of timing items that exist in DotA. BKB, Mek, pipe, Scythe of Vyse, blink dagger, orchid among others that are far more character specific. all of these items give an immediate surge in strength to the team that utilizes them whether its in team fights or picks. LoL has: Bulwark and Zekes for AD heavy teams. and players don't even build Zekes. | ||
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obesechicken13
United States10467 Posts
On July 17 2013 09:29 UniversalSnip wrote: smash talking about what they're going to do with olaf and it's not looking so hot. basically the rundown right now is: Q: Minimum range, no slow decay. Ok, sounds great. Does not go through walls, which sounds horrible because it's really fun to toss them through walls, but it sounds like that part might be open to adjustment. W: Has no idea what to do with it. Increases your healing based on how low you are. Other stats might just be lifesteal and attack speed. E: No changes. R: Has no idea what to do with it. So my concern here is that if W loses spellvamp and AD that basically turns bruiser builds off. It would be like twisting a faucet, the incentive for tanky items just dries up. The spellvamp is the 'bruiser' portion of the ability that makes up a substantial portion of olaf's in fight sustain when you're building tanky - as you can imagine the lifesteal portion actually isn't scaling up that hard when you're building defensively, but the vamp portion doesn't scale very hard off AD, so they each serve to prop up different builds. Then, if you take AD off the skill and turn it into attack speed, olaf has *no* other source of AD in his skills at all, so what is that attack speed going to work with exactly? You'll essentially be shoved into AD or on-hit itemization. To be clear I think encouraging him to build a cutlass or something would be a lot of fun because it's very enjoyable to just go into overdrive as you get low and start healing like crazy, but it really doesn't look to me like the tanky aspect that's surely necessary to him working is getting much respect. Well I guess that will make him a worse duelist if he can't use Q to fight people in melee range but it would also make him a lot worse at top lane. I'm worried he'd be balanced, but only against ranged champions or something. It all depends. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
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UniversalSnip
9871 Posts
On July 17 2013 11:40 TheYango wrote: Only because teams haven't wised up to the gambit of buying Aegis on a higher position hero when you want to push it out at an earlier timing, and insist on the jungler getting it even if it's late. Like right now Aegis feels like a "no-gameplay" option because teams only see it as "the jungler is the only one who buys it, and is the only one who CAN buy it". But if the teamfight timing of an Aegis is as strong as he claims, doesn't that mean that there's a legitimate tradeoff of your AP or AD carry buying the item to win a teamfight now when you're behind, at the cost of potential later power if you don't use the timing to come back into the game? I think that depends on the scaling direction of the carry. The selection of AP and AD carries that can just audible into aegis when they're noticeably behind on gold really doesn't strike me as that broad. Also, while aegis wins teamfights, it wins particular kinds of teamfights. Specifically, it's really good at sieges. If you're going to go and force an immediate engage at dragon I'm not so sure aegis will tilt that particular kind of fight, and it takes a lot of things going right to get a siege going when you're behind. | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On July 17 2013 11:36 UniversalSnip wrote: considering the item always gets bought that's basically how it is, both teams get a spike when they pick it up. the team that's ahead is gonna get it earlier. it's completely ineffective as a comeback mechanism, it basically just pushes the game to the point where teams are excruciatingly careful to avoid confrontation, which already makes up an embarrassing amount of a pro lol match. just look at the kills per minute compared to a dota match. tbh there's just as many items if not more in Dota that are must-buys. Dota's (alleged - I don't know if that's actually true but it probably is) higher kill per minute isn't a function of much less ways to avoid confrontation due to more items that provide strong timings, scarcity of vision, and the existence of smoke of deceit. On July 17 2013 11:55 UniversalSnip wrote: I think that depends on the scaling direction of the carry. The selection of AP and AD carries that can just audible into aegis when they're noticeably behind on gold really doesn't strike me as that broad. Also, while aegis wins teamfights, it wins particular kinds of teamfights. Specifically, it's really good at sieges. If you're going to go and force an immediate engage at dragon I'm not so sure aegis will tilt that particular kind of fight, and it takes a lot of things going right to get a siege going when you're behind. Maybe it's not a good buy on AD or AP carries but why not the top laner? Also, I'm pretty sure that, all else held equal, if one team has Aegis/Bulwark and the other doesn't but has 2~3k gold in selfish items, the team with Aegis/Bulwark will win the dragon fight, especially if the teams are double AP. | ||
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UniversalSnip
9871 Posts
On July 17 2013 11:55 Ryuu314 wrote: tbh there's just as many items if not more in Dota that are must-buys. Dota's (alleged - I don't know if that's actually true but it probably is) higher kill per minute isn't a function of much less ways to avoid confrontation due to more items that provide strong timings, scarcity of vision, and the existence of smoke of deceit. yeah and those are things I'd be happy to see. It's a multilayered problem. | ||
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onlywonderboy
United States23745 Posts
On July 17 2013 11:46 TheYango wrote: I mean, if we're making the DotA comparison, Mek looks equally one-dimensional if you play with the closed-minded attitude of only ever seeing it on a 4th or 5th position hero (many teams did for a long time). A lot of the fundamental depth of the item comes out of the new avenues of gameplay allowed for in the item being an item option for higher position heroes all the way up to the 1st position carry role. And that's an avenue that's potentially there for Aegis as well but has never been explored. At the same time this gameplay is only there if the Aegis timing is actually strong enough for a 1st position carry to consider the item--that is the timing has to provide strong enough immediate gain to potentially outweigh the long-term sacrifice in damage for it to be worthwhile. Do you think it's strong enough though? Maybe it hasn't been fully explored because it's just not viable. I guess it's hard to say without a lot of testing, but the trade off in terms of damage seems pretty substantial. Guess it would depend on how many early game skirmishes you would be able to force. And then you better hope your other lanes are doing well so they can make up for the lack of damage on either your Mid or AD. Maybe the answer would be for more Top laners to rush it. | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On July 17 2013 11:56 UniversalSnip wrote: yeah and those are things I'd be happy to see. It's a multilayered problem. I completely agree. However, I personally think Riot should be increasing options, not diminishing them. The problem with Riot's balance philosophy of nerf everything/remove things that are too strong, is that it just reduces viable options and homogenizes the game. Dota's philosophy of balance via OP'ness isn't the solution either since Riot very adamantly doesn't want that kind of environment. However, making everything weak as shit doesn't make for exciting gameplay either. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On July 17 2013 11:55 Ryuu314 wrote: tbh there's just as many items if not more in Dota that are must-buys. Dota's (alleged - I don't know if that's actually true but it probably is) higher kill per minute isn't a function of much less ways to avoid confrontation due to more items that provide strong timings, scarcity of vision, and the existence of smoke of deceit. I've already discussed how vision is too ubiquitous in this game. I've also expressed my loathing for the Explorer ward as free vision that is not actually valuable enough to counter (spending a pink to deward a free Explorer ward when its duration is so short to begin with is a net loss), so the only thing it ends up doing is deflecting level 1 action with no real gain in gameplay. On July 17 2013 11:57 onlywonderboy wrote: Do you think it's strong enough though? Maybe it hasn't been fully explored because it's just not viable. I guess it's hard to say without a lot of testing, but the trade off in terms of damage seems pretty substantial. Guess it would depend on how many early game skirmishes you would be able to force. And then you better hope your other lanes are doing well so they can make up for the lack of damage on either your Mid or AD. Maybe the answer would be for more Top laners to rush it. Ok if it's not strong enough I'd be very happy to see Riot BUFF Aegis, but that of course will never happen now. | ||
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Zdrastochye
Ivory Coast6262 Posts
On July 17 2013 12:00 TheYango wrote: I've already discussed how vision is too ubiquitous in this game. I've also expressed my loathing for the Explorer ward as free vision that is not actually valuable enough to counter (spending a pink to deward a free Explorer ward when its duration is so short to begin with is a net loss), so the only thing it ends up doing is deflecting level 1 action with no real gain in gameplay. Ok if it's not strong enough I'd be very happy to see Riot BUFF Aegis, but that of course will never happen now. Yango, you being the thinktank of these forums, do you truly believe all level 1 aggression has been explored? Sure it's more all-in, and relies on getting a kill, and even then might not even out unless you push a super fast tower from it, but you must agree not all level 1 aggression has been discovered yet. | ||
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