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[Patch 3.08: Aatrox Patch] General Discussion - Page 281

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Interested in helping start an on-topic, serious League discussion thread? PM Neo to talk about how to get started.
sob3k
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States7572 Posts
July 02 2013 00:39 GMT
#5601
whew, first games in months.

Jungle Darius is my man, he does everything. I feel like I could build 3 warmogs and still do scary damage, plus you can pull entire camps over walls to steal or speed up clears.
In Hungry Hungry Hippos there are no such constraints—one can constantly attempt to collect marbles with one’s hippo, limited only by one’s hippo-levering capabilities.
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-07-02 00:47:08
July 02 2013 00:45 GMT
#5602
On July 02 2013 09:37 caelym wrote:
1. Change tower AI to Dota's tower AI. This makes it harder for 1v2s to chip down a tower.

You'd have to change the creep AI accordingly otherwise this change is meaningless. As is, creeps auto-aggro to the tower anyway, and in DotA, the tower prioritizes units that are attacking the tower.

This could also have a lot of unintended consequences making games longer because high ground pushes would be more difficult.

On July 02 2013 09:37 caelym wrote:
2. Put the ADC alone in the hard lane and lane the melee fighter with a support. This makes up for certain melee champs' weaknesses in bad 1v1 and 1v2 matchups. Another strategy taken from Dota.

The problem is that if the other team puts their AD+support together and look for the 2v2, you will lose the 2v2. This is why Support+Melee lanes and ADC solos died in the first place.
Moderator
caelym
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States6430 Posts
July 02 2013 00:49 GMT
#5603
Certain melee duo lanes do really well against standard adc and support.
nafta
Profile Joined August 2010
Bulgaria18893 Posts
July 02 2013 00:52 GMT
#5604
Yeah but unless they win your melees being lower level is going to make teamfights harder.
Ethelis
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
United States2400 Posts
July 02 2013 00:54 GMT
#5605
On July 02 2013 09:52 nafta wrote:
Yeah but unless they win your melees being lower level is going to make teamfights harder.


But (in theory/match-up dependent) you're guaranteeing more gold than the current 1v2 top laner.
Disabled gamer - Diamond 3 (LoL) D+ Rank scrublord on BW. Bisu doesnt need DTs, He uses probes. just ask Flash.
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
July 02 2013 00:57 GMT
#5606
On July 02 2013 09:54 xMiragex wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 02 2013 09:52 nafta wrote:
Yeah but unless they win your melees being lower level is going to make teamfights harder.


But (in theory/match-up dependent) you're guaranteeing more gold than the current 1v2 top laner.


That is the whole 2v1 issue. Its basically a fog of war gamble in certain situations. Sure, I can get lucky and get the Pantheon/Taric lane vs. Sona+Cait, but if you get the Cho'Gath, and the jungle nasus just spirit fires your first minion push, GG.
Freeeeeeedom
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-07-02 00:58:45
July 02 2013 00:57 GMT
#5607
You also probably get more XP than a 1v2 as well, honestly.

The XP bonus for splitting XP two ways is pretty big (two or more champs splitting XP on lane creeps gets 30% more total XP than a solo). If an off-laner is missing XP on 1/3 of the creeps (perfectly realistic in 1v2s in pro play), they're actually getting less XP than if they were in a 2v2 and getting XP on every creep.
Moderator
caelym
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States6430 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-07-02 00:59:21
July 02 2013 00:57 GMT
#5608
This idea needs to be thought out and tested out more but I think it has potential. Anyway the point is I like player driven innovation way better than forced adaptation to design changes.
Scip
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Czech Republic11293 Posts
July 02 2013 00:57 GMT
#5609
Yeah, that's the problem with double melee, laneswaps totally screw them over and having lower level melees is really awkward because you gain a lot more survivability from levels than you get damage. In general they also tend to be really gankable which basically forces one of the melees to rush sightstone or have your own jungler waste large amounts of time camping brushes without any use.
"It may be pleasurable for some of us to imagine being ravished" - Christopher Hitchens in a debate with feminists RIP 2011 Psalm 2:9 You shall break them with a rod of iron
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-07-02 01:00:52
July 02 2013 00:59 GMT
#5610
I don't think caelym meant the support had to be a melee.

It's probably fine, just really sensitive to draft. I don't think it's that easy to find a melee that wins 2v2s AND is worth freefarming at the cost of having your AD in a 1v2.
Moderator
Scip
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Czech Republic11293 Posts
July 02 2013 01:00 GMT
#5611
Whats the point of having like sona+jarvan when you could have like leona graves instead
"It may be pleasurable for some of us to imagine being ravished" - Christopher Hitchens in a debate with feminists RIP 2011 Psalm 2:9 You shall break them with a rod of iron
upperbound
Profile Joined September 2011
United States2300 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-07-02 01:02:02
July 02 2013 01:00 GMT
#5612
On July 02 2013 09:23 caelym wrote:
I think Riot is trying to enforce the sanctity of the laning phase because too many champions were designed under the assumption of standard laning and meta. They shouldn't punish the creativity that comes from competition because it breaks the artificial design molds they put in place.

Basically invalidating lane phase does narrow the design space heavily, though, and doesn't open it up too much. The 2v1 basically requires every melee to have a ranged cs mechanic or be played strictly in the jungle. Right now pure melees are strictly worse picks for competitive solo lanes because they are abused too easily by AD+Support. I can't believe I agree with a Hashinshin general forum post, but I do.

EDIT:

On July 02 2013 09:57 TheYango wrote:
You also probably get more XP than a 1v2 as well, honestly.

The XP bonus for splitting XP two ways is pretty big (two or more champs splitting XP on lane creeps gets 30% more total XP than a solo). If an off-laner is missing XP on 1/3 of the creeps (perfectly realistic in 1v2s in pro play), they're actually getting less XP than if they were in a 2v2 and getting XP on every creep.

I also think it's 1/4, so even worse.
Capricious_LoL
Profile Joined December 2012
United States222 Posts
July 02 2013 01:02 GMT
#5613
Nuuu, hashinshin is the prophet to the dark side.
NA LoL: Capriciøus
caelym
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States6430 Posts
July 02 2013 01:02 GMT
#5614
On July 02 2013 10:00 Scip wrote:
Whats the point of having like sona+jarvan when you could have like leona graves instead

Say you really really wanted to run jarvan in the team, he'd be shat on less with sona in his lane as opposed to solo vs 2. Meanwhile your graves solo can wave clear and hold his ground.
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-07-02 01:06:08
July 02 2013 01:02 GMT
#5615
On July 02 2013 10:00 upperbound wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 02 2013 09:23 caelym wrote:
I think Riot is trying to enforce the sanctity of the laning phase because too many champions were designed under the assumption of standard laning and meta. They shouldn't punish the creativity that comes from competition because it breaks the artificial design molds they put in place.

Basically invalidating lane phase does narrow the design space heavily, though, and doesn't open it up too much. The 2v1 basically requires every melee to have a ranged cs mechanic or be played strictly in the jungle. Right now pure melees are strictly worse picks for competitive solo lanes because they are abused too easily by AD+Support. I can't believe I agree with a Hashinshin general forum post, but I do.

Or have the ability to leave the lane and influence the game at level 1-2.

It's just that Riot his multiple times killed the possibility of champs being able to do this.

On July 02 2013 10:00 upperbound wrote:
I also think it's 1/4, so even worse.

It used to be 1/4, it got buffed.
Moderator
Scip
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Czech Republic11293 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-07-02 01:05:16
July 02 2013 01:03 GMT
#5616
On July 02 2013 10:02 caelym wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 02 2013 10:00 Scip wrote:
Whats the point of having like sona+jarvan when you could have like leona graves instead

Say you really really wanted to run jarvan in the team, he'd be shat on less with sona in his lane as opposed to solo vs 2. Meanwhile your graves solo can wave clear and hold his ground.

Why would I want to run jarvan on my team when Leona can do the same thing in lane and later on in the game without requiring any farm whatsoever

it just doesnt make any sense guys, are you proposing going 1v2 while having the FARMING champion of the 2 melee? That just doesn't make any sense. AD carry 1v2 is just nonsensical when you can have AD carry mid and a mage (lissandra, kennen) 1v2 instead, wtf guys
"It may be pleasurable for some of us to imagine being ravished" - Christopher Hitchens in a debate with feminists RIP 2011 Psalm 2:9 You shall break them with a rod of iron
kainzero
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States5211 Posts
July 02 2013 01:04 GMT
#5617
I don't even know why they want to change the 2v1 anyway, as if it's a problem.
Amui
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Canada10567 Posts
July 02 2013 01:05 GMT
#5618
Another problem is that melee+support basically needs to have the threat of being able to blow up the AD or support instantaneously in order to be able to farm near freely. It must have a threat level equal or higher than taric graves. Anything lower and there isn't enough threat to prevent constant harass. By nature, most of these lanes tend to be very allin, and snowball very, very hard in both directions.
Porouscloud - NA LoL
nafta
Profile Joined August 2010
Bulgaria18893 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-07-02 01:11:47
July 02 2013 01:10 GMT
#5619
Imo the adc's base stats for first levels should be nerfed.That would make a lot of sense.Maybe some kill lanes would become viable AND a jungler coming to 2v2 would actually be a threat.

So many ad-s can win 1v1-s easily which is stupid since they are supposed to be late-game carries.
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-07-02 01:12:13
July 02 2013 01:10 GMT
#5620
On July 02 2013 10:03 Scip wrote:
it just doesnt make any sense guys, are you proposing going 1v2 while having the FARMING champion of the 2 melee?

That's the thing, I can't think of any melees that are both strong enough to conceivably win 2v2s as well as be worth freefarming in comparison to a ranged carry.

The number of melees in the game that are worth farming up that hard is actually fairly small in the first place, and of those I don't think any of them are viable 2v2 laners.

Something like Poppy, for example, absolutely takes over the game if freefarmed, but I can't conceivably see a Poppy+X duo ever beating most reasonably strong AD+support duos.
Moderator
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