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[Patch 3.05: Balance Update] General Discussion - Page 99
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
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OhTwoMise
United States164 Posts
On April 18 2013 03:06 ketchup wrote:Not really hung up on that fact that her leash is Leblanc's leash. It's inevitable that some skills will overlap. I knew this reasoning would come up to excuse what I feel is a pretty poor execution for a remake from Riot. It's pretty much the idea that, in my opinion, her current form feels nothing like her old form. As I said, nothing is wrong with the damage, but her feel is destroyed compared to her old version. I'm not entirely sure why someone would pick her as support in her current form at all. It's just very very hard to justify. I know why someone would pick her as an AP mid though. Of course, I could be wrong, but I cannot think this Karma was designed for both support and AP solo lane in mind. To me, it feels like Riot definitely abandoned the support prospect to cater to the Karma solo lane players. I'd also like to add that if someone does pick Karma as a solo lane AP role, I do not think that they will be satisfied with how her "ult" is used/feels now due to this change in Riot mindset. Other mids have a much more satisfying factor with their ults. Old Karma was an abysmal support, and I feel that's where a lot of her negative winrate came from. She's reasonable in lane, but post-laning, she offered almost nothing to a team unless her team allowed her to absorb a lot of midgame farm. There are enough champions now that are ultless that I don't think anyone has an issue with that anymore. I think all of them (?) have seen heavy competitive play at this point. The closest analogy to old Karma was Udyr in terms of no-ult design, and he's seen play off and on from day 1. Not having an ult IS a big deal, but there are ways to make it work. The transform champions get extra abilities. Udyr gets absurd stats. Karma got a little bit shafted in this regard, I think because her kit was inherently so abusive in lane. Regardless of what she did elsewhere, having a shield, a heal, and pretty good damage in lane is a recipe for a very frustrated opponent (again, look at Udyr), even if Karma's combination of horrible range and awful CC makes it very hard to solo kill anything. It was not uncommon for me to get all-inned with an ultimate, eat every skill plus Ignite, and then the other guy had to flash away while I was autoing him and waiting for cooldowns. On April 17 2013 22:42 Requizen wrote: PBE Karma: Mantra'd abilities are already so good in teamfights, especially Q and E... it's really only a matter of time. Although I say that and realize that she'll likely still be underplayed/low win rate. I think the big thing is that she doesn't fit the solo queue ideal of a mid, that is, someone who can instagib the enemy mid and roam super hard, and then carry later on with super burst and AoE. Because she's a support AP, well, there's a reason you don't see a lot of Morganas and Jannas go mid in solo queue (at least from my experience). Oh well. I find it interesting that this is almost verbatim what people were saying about old Karma, even though she's miles closer to a good solo queue champion now. Edit: On April 18 2013 03:24 TheYango wrote: Personally I think it would have been more interesting for Karma's tether to be made ally-only and for them to expand on the supportive aspects of the skill, but instead they went the other way round (make it enemy only and focus on the offensive aspect). I wholeheartedly agree with this. I think the ally tether was always both stronger and more interesting than the enemy tether, and that was a big part of why Karma was so underappreciated in solo queue, which Riot puts a heavy (IMO, much heavier than they should) emphasis on in design. I was of the opinion that tether was by far her most interesting spell pre-remake. The issue was that its usage was so narrow, but the payoff for using it correctly was pretty low. I always thought giving it a stun a la Wisp tether would have been an awesome change, and potentially pushed her into the realm of competitively viable. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
On April 18 2013 07:23 cLutZ wrote: RW is quite rubbish compared to RE or RQ also. Useful if you're low on health or if you need to focus a target but they're being blocked by creeps/jungle/enemies. But yes, as a pure damage option RQ is obviously much better. That said though, RQ only does more damage if they take the delayed explosion. If you can't guarantee they will (someone with a jump or someone like Yi/Olaf who will ignore your slows), RW actually does more damage. | ||
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HazMat
United States17077 Posts
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On April 18 2013 07:26 Requizen wrote: Useful if you're low on health or if you need to focus a target but they're being blocked by creeps/jungle/enemies. But yes, as a pure damage option RQ is obviously much better. That said though, RQ only does more damage if they take the delayed explosion. If you can't guarantee they will (someone with a jump or someone like Yi/Olaf who will ignore your slows), RW actually does more damage. Ahh, nvm. My RW assessment, was off b/c I never max W nemore. | ||
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ketchup
14521 Posts
On April 18 2013 06:51 OhTwoMise wrote: Old Karma was an abysmal support, and I feel that's where a lot of her negative winrate came from. She's reasonable in lane, but post-laning, she offered almost nothing to a team unless her team allowed her to absorb a lot of midgame farm. There are enough champions now that are ultless that I don't think anyone has an issue with that anymore. I think all of them (?) have seen heavy competitive play at this point. The closest analogy to old Karma was Udyr in terms of no-ult design, and he's seen play off and on from day 1. Not having an ult IS a big deal, but there are ways to make it work. The transform champions get extra abilities. Udyr gets absurd stats. Karma got a little bit shafted in this regard, I think because her kit was inherently so abusive in lane. Regardless of what she did elsewhere, having a shield, a heal, and pretty good damage in lane is a recipe for a very frustrated opponent (again, look at Udyr), even if Karma's combination of horrible range and awful CC makes it very hard to solo kill anything. It was not uncommon for me to get all-inned with an ultimate, eat every skill plus Ignite, and then the other guy had to flash away while I was autoing him and waiting for cooldowns. I don't disagree that old karma was not the best support, but she definitely had her uses in the support role. I don't see that happening now. I again want to say I feel that they scrapped the idea of her being support, and this is just sad to me. It's not even that I play supports that often. I just dislike the idea of removing potential from a champion. I especially liked her leash/tether ally potential that I thought they'd work with more. Instead, it's probably one of the abilities that has the least amount of flexibility now. Not to mention that the leash range is so short that she's always going to be put into danger when using it I wholeheartedly agree with this. I think the ally tether was always both stronger and more interesting than the enemy tether, and that was a big part of why Karma was so underappreciated in solo queue, which Riot puts a heavy (IMO, much heavier than they should) emphasis on in design. I was of the opinion that tether was by far her most interesting spell pre-remake. The issue was that its usage was so narrow, but the payoff for using it correctly was pretty low. I always thought giving it a stun a la Wisp tether would have been an awesome change, and potentially pushed her into the realm of competitively viable. I like the idea of a Tether-heal DoT, but then again I might be a bit bias due to my own reasons. | ||
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kainzero
United States5211 Posts
and new karma sucks but without the unique kit | ||
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sob3k
United States7572 Posts
On April 18 2013 07:26 Requizen wrote: Useful if you're low on health or if you need to focus a target but they're being blocked by creeps/jungle/enemies. But yes, as a pure damage option RQ is obviously much better. That said though, RQ only does more damage if they take the delayed explosion. If you can't guarantee they will (someone with a jump or someone like Yi/Olaf who will ignore your slows), RW actually does more damage. except if they have a jump they will jump out of tether and it will deal way less damage the problem is that in a situation where you would want to RW, its actually almost always better to just W->RQ, the heal component needs a big buff or something, by the time you are low enough that it heals for anything you are usually dead with the squishy CDR builds that work best on her. | ||
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zulu_nation8
China26351 Posts
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thenexusp
United States3721 Posts
On April 18 2013 07:10 TheYango wrote: If they were going to use an aspect of Wisp tether, I would have taken the health-sharing component, not the stun. Something like causing Mantra tether to allow you to take some of the damage for your tethered target, or Mantra tether causes the next shield or heal you cast on yourself to also be applied to your Tethered target. Speaking of, a damage-sharing ability would be pretty cool. Not sure if it would be right for Karma (since it's something that inherently encourages you to build full tank) but cool. | ||
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greggy
United Kingdom1483 Posts
q is zephyr, except it's a skillshot (counterbalanced by being aoe) and has much lower cd mantra q is like a limited version of tornado w is also like zephyr, except you trade instant slow for delayed root mantra w is limited but I guess it's like monsoon healing, so highly situational e is roughly similar to janna's e mantra shield is like healing from monsoon + janna passive in one sure, janna has cc, but I think this edition of karma is going to be very strong after these buffs. I think she'd be strong in arranged play now, too, except noone's willing to practice her. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On April 18 2013 08:42 greggy wrote: new karma is sorta like janna q is zephyr, except it's a skillshot (counterbalanced by being aoe) and has much lower cd mantra q is like a limited version of tornado w is also like zephyr, except you trade instant slow for delayed root mantra w is limited but I guess it's like monsoon healing, so highly situational e is roughly similar to janna's e mantra shield is like healing from monsoon + janna passive in one sure, janna has cc, but I think this edition of karma is going to be very strong after these buffs. I think she'd be strong in arranged play now, too, except noone's willing to practice her. I think she is basically Brand with Swain's Crow. | ||
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wussleeQ
United States3130 Posts
On April 18 2013 09:12 cLutZ wrote: I think she is basically Brand with Swain's Crow. brand's range much further than karma imo. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
1k on Q but you usually won't use it till your target is set ablaze, which means you then have 900 range W, while Karma has 950 range on her Q. (I still would in no way compare them. Nor would I compare her W to Swain's Q for that matter.) | ||
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sob3k
United States7572 Posts
On April 18 2013 08:42 greggy wrote: new karma is sorta like janna q is zephyr, except it's a skillshot (counterbalanced by being aoe) and has much lower cd mantra q is like a limited version of tornado w is also like zephyr, except you trade instant slow for delayed root mantra w is limited but I guess it's like monsoon healing, so highly situational e is roughly similar to janna's e mantra shield is like healing from monsoon + janna passive in one sure, janna has cc, but I think this edition of karma is going to be very strong after these buffs. I think she'd be strong in arranged play now, too, except noone's willing to practice her. except Q is nothing like zephyr zephyr: short range single target point and click nuke with huge duration strong slow Q: long range skillshot AOE nuke with short duration weak slow they both slow, they are nothing alike and Karma and janna play completely differently, janna is all about her crazy pushing power, karma has pretty shit pushing New Karma doesn't really play like anyone, I'd say her closest playstyle match is like a less sustained burstier Swain with a spammable skillshot tacked on. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
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overt
United States9006 Posts
As an ADC I have zero problems with my jungler getting red while laning is happening because he can make way more use of it than I can (I would use red only to win my lane whereas he could use red to win every lane). But literally the second that laning is over I feel that I'm entitled to red buff. As an ADC I make more use out of red than any of the other players on my team. I mean the best scenario I could think of would be if I was playing say Ashe and they were playing like an Udyr or someone who could very easily stick to the enemy if they had red. But even in that best case scenario red buff on Ashe might still be better. I've just had a few games lately where my jungler will get angry with me for taking red buff at like the 30 minute mark or just come by and smite it. Maybe they're just being dicks or I'm having a bad experience but I'm trying to figure out if some pro player did it or if there's some reasonable logic behind it. | ||
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sob3k
United States7572 Posts
On April 18 2013 09:48 cLutZ wrote: While walking around during break I excitedly thought of the idea of having Karma Q be detonatable like Anivia's stun (without the stun of course). except you would have to slow it down a ton to make that not broken/impossible to use, then you'd have to up the damage because its would be much lower percentage,then you'd have to raise the CD because otherwise the damage potential would be absurd, then it would totally fuck up the synergy with mantra reduction and you broke her kit | ||
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