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On April 17 2013 23:48 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2013 22:42 Requizen wrote:PBE Karma: - Focused Resolve [ W ] - Cooldown is now 16/15/14/13/12 Seconds (down from 16/15.5/15/14.5/14 Seconds)
- Inner Flame [ Q ] - Now does 80/125/170/215/260 (up from 60/110/160/210/260)
- Inspire [ E ] - now grants 40/45/50/55/60 Movement Speed (up from 20/30/40/50/60)
- Inspire [ E ] - Cooldown is now 10 seconds ( down from always 12 seconds)
- Mantra [ R ] - Cooldown is now 42.3/39.8/36.66/33.84 Seconds (down from always 45)
(Update: Riot says "45/42/39/36" However that is not what shows ingame)
Mantra'd abilities are already so good in teamfights, especially Q and E... it's really only a matter of time. Although I say that and realize that she'll likely still be underplayed/low win rate. I think the big thing is that she doesn't fit the solo queue ideal of a mid, that is, someone who can instagib the enemy mid and roam super hard, and then carry later on with super burst and AoE. Because she's a support AP, well, there's a reason you don't see a lot of Morganas and Jannas go mid in solo queue (at least from my experience). Oh well. Well... If they buff literally everything about her multiple times, she soon might not be junk anymore. For example lvl 1 E giving double the movespeed is sort of a big deal, as is mantra cd reduction.
*cough*
I really hope everyone keeps thinking like you. Will make solo queue super easy for me...
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I dont like these buffs really either, they should add something and remove the cast time to her W or reduce delay of the second part of Q or something other than a straight numbers buff if they want to improve her. These are getting ridiculous, she's just gonna turn into a mantra Q spam robot.
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On April 17 2013 23:44 Juicyfruit wrote:
If fiddle was good at laning he'd be a top tier hero though. The fact that he's usually shunted off to the jungle is actually what keeps him in check.
middlesticks is pretty popular on the Chinese server. He is both incredibly irritating and extremely difficult to kill. With his bouncy silence thing doing full damage to minions now, the only thing that really holds him back is his auto animation and how you can't use your ult in lane in an all-in scenario.
Between AP yi and middlesticks I really hate playing mid on the chinese server...
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I feel like Riot is trying to save face with Karma at this point. They spent so long working on this remake, they need Karma to be a perfectly good and desirable and balanced champion. It's like they feel like they'll look bad if Karma isn't popular and they're buffing everything because of it.
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On April 17 2013 23:58 Vanka wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2013 23:44 Juicyfruit wrote:
If fiddle was good at laning he'd be a top tier hero though. The fact that he's usually shunted off to the jungle is actually what keeps him in check. middlesticks is pretty popular on the Chinese server. He is both incredibly irritating and extremely difficult to kill. With his bouncy silence thing doing full damage to minions now, the only thing that really holds him back is his auto animation and how you can't use your ult in lane in an all-in scenario. Between AP yi and middlesticks I really hate playing mid on the chinese server...
There's the op strategy with smurf middlesticks to drain to make the opponent waste his cc and then ult and kill him.
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Doesn't Fiddle destroy Yi mid? And I'd imagine Fear+Silence is pretty good at stopping hard cc-less assassins like Kha'Zix and Zed... except they can just permapush and roam and there's nothing he can do about it.
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On April 17 2013 23:58 Vanka wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2013 23:44 Juicyfruit wrote:
If fiddle was good at laning he'd be a top tier hero though. The fact that he's usually shunted off to the jungle is actually what keeps him in check. middlesticks is pretty popular on the Chinese server. He is both incredibly irritating and extremely difficult to kill. With his bouncy silence thing doing full damage to minions now, the only thing that really holds him back is his auto animation and how you can't use your ult in lane in an all-in scenario. Between AP yi and middlesticks I really hate playing mid on the chinese server...
He gets shoved out of lane too easily, and has such tough auto attack animation to last hit under turret. At least AP Yi can shove a lane back out, and last hitting isn't such a pain.
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On April 18 2013 00:08 Alaric wrote:
Doesn't Fiddle destroy Yi mid? And i'm imagine Fear+Silence is pretty good at stopping hard cc-less assassins like Kha'Zix and Zed... except they can just permapush and roam and there's nothing he can do about it.
Except he's still made of paper, so if Kha/Yi/Diana/Zed/Akali/etc ever catch him unawares, he's little more than scraps. Sure starting Cloth -> Seeker's probably helps, but surviving lane against assassins would probably still be a nightmare I'd imagine.
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On April 18 2013 00:08 Alaric wrote:
Doesn't Fiddle destroy Yi mid? And I'd imagine Fear+Silence is pretty good at stopping hard cc-less assassins like Kha'Zix and Zed... except they can just permapush and roam and there's nothing he can do about it.
Fiddle probably has some match ups in mid that he absolutely crushes, his drain continues through stuff like Fizz, Vlad and Akali's escapes. How ever, if he's picked as a counter, and there's a lane swap, his wave clear sucks. He's going to be more of a liability than a carry. He has good poke with the crows, a nice amount of damage at level 6, and great cc which is why he's been used in the support roll on occasion. When played as a support he typically isn't building a ton of damage or maxing his drain. He also will miss some experience warding and clearing wards, further hurting his base damage from being out leveled. I do like to play him in the jungle on occasion. He can snowball super hard if you let him get to level 4 and gank with out counter jungling the crap out of him, this is probably why used to be banned all the time in season one. There's just a lot of other choices for jungling who can have just as big of an impact on a game, while not having to spend as much money on their build.
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Weirdly enough, Zed/Khazix (I have seen Khazix, but never actually Zed after ~150 ranked games) get very little play mid lane in Chinese solo queue. Akalis usually go top, Diana only now and then.
Based on my experience, which admittedly is limited, mid is predominately lux (so many lux's), TF and ryze, followed by kat and yi, who are permabans/first picks, and then fiddle and kassidin. Those make up the vast majority of mid picks.
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Zac top is my new project I think, but is it even worth building AP items on him with his low scaling? Or should I just stick to MPen and defenses?
AP Bruiser items such as Liandry/Abyssal/Zhonya/Rylai seem really nice. However, with his short range and fairly low sticking power (need to go balls deep with EQR to stay on someone really well), I feel like he'd be shat on by most range tops (Teemo/Elise/Vlad/Jayce); and with his low damage, any hard fighting tops (Darius/Riven being the biggest I can think of) would force him into a really shitty position of sitting back and trying to farm with Q while running.
Thoughts? Sorry about dumping this in General, but there's no Zac thread yet and I haven't played him enough to make one.
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United States15536 Posts
On April 18 2013 00:33 Requizen wrote:
Zac top is my new project I think, but is it even worth building AP items on him with his low scaling? Or should I just stick to MPen and defenses?
AP Bruiser items such as Liandry/Abyssal/Zhonya/Rylai seem really nice. However, with his short range and fairly low sticking power (need to go balls deep with EQR to stay on someone really well), I feel like he'd be shat on by most range tops (Teemo/Elise/Vlad/Jayce); and with his low damage, any hard fighting tops (Darius/Riven being the biggest I can think of) would force him into a really shitty position of sitting back and trying to farm with Q while running.
Thoughts? Sorry about dumping this in General, but there's no Zac thread yet and I haven't played him enough to make one.
I think SV would be core on him as far as defense items goes. I only have anecdotal evidence about powerful Zac opponents, but it seems like it's really useful for all the reasons CDR and MR is useful PLUS the healing for his passive.
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I don't think Zacs AP ratios are that low.
Liandry's seems pretty good on him, since his ult slows and hits a bunch of targets multiple times.
I don't think you want a ton of AP on him, but like Warmogs Visage Liandry Rylai seems like a pretty scary combo. Visage is def his core item.
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Sunfire cape pretty good on Zac. He does a shitton of damage with just tank items though.
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On April 18 2013 00:36 AsmodeusXI wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2013 00:33 Requizen wrote:
Zac top is my new project I think, but is it even worth building AP items on him with his low scaling? Or should I just stick to MPen and defenses?
AP Bruiser items such as Liandry/Abyssal/Zhonya/Rylai seem really nice. However, with his short range and fairly low sticking power (need to go balls deep with EQR to stay on someone really well), I feel like he'd be shat on by most range tops (Teemo/Elise/Vlad/Jayce); and with his low damage, any hard fighting tops (Darius/Riven being the biggest I can think of) would force him into a really shitty position of sitting back and trying to farm with Q while running.
Thoughts? Sorry about dumping this in General, but there's no Zac thread yet and I haven't played him enough to make one. I think SV would be core on him as far as defense items goes. I only have anecdotal evidence about powerful Zac opponents, but it seems like it's really useful for all the reasons CDR and MR is useful PLUS the healing for his passive.
True, pretty obvious a good pick for him, it's often my first item out of jungle aside from boots/SS. Probably better prioritization over Abyssal, short of getting fed and using the mpen for your W spam.
Edit: Tank Zac probably much better than AP bruiser Zac, yes yes 
Any thoughts on matchups?
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According to my wonderful experimenting with bots, I found out that the best combination of damage and survivability was something like boots + spirit visage + sunfire + liandry's torment + warmogs (+ void staff or another tank item).
I only tried him in a normal game once and we stomped it so hard I haven't yet gotten to try a full build, this build I got by selling and rebuying all my items multiple times and testing 1v5ing. One thing I'm certain of after the testing though is that Liandrys makes you deal a million billion times more damage.
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Ooh Visage Sunfire Liandry, that sounds even nastier.
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I've seen Zac go top, build straight mercs/warmogs/SV, and destroy in the midgame because they're unkillable and his base damage are on the strong side (especially W considering the scaling, and his ult who's flat-out absurd). You just initiate, and as long as there's another damage source on your team their backline has to run because they can't kill you while your load of cc pins them in place, making them easy targets. The ult base damage + W spam can easily drop squishies to around half-health, so as long as you don't initiate from too far (I guess it's more like Fiddle: the range on E is there to come from odd angles, not initiate from a full screen away) so your team can follow-up before your ult is over you should be golden.
It's a case of "doesn't matter if my damage is low, I make yours pale in comparison so you'll die first", except he has actual damage.
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Yeah, Visage Sunfire Liandry seems like a solid and balanced survivability core with over 1k bonus hp, balanced resistances and synergetic damage.
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On April 18 2013 00:36 AsmodeusXI wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2013 00:33 Requizen wrote:
Zac top is my new project I think, but is it even worth building AP items on him with his low scaling? Or should I just stick to MPen and defenses?
AP Bruiser items such as Liandry/Abyssal/Zhonya/Rylai seem really nice. However, with his short range and fairly low sticking power (need to go balls deep with EQR to stay on someone really well), I feel like he'd be shat on by most range tops (Teemo/Elise/Vlad/Jayce); and with his low damage, any hard fighting tops (Darius/Riven being the biggest I can think of) would force him into a really shitty position of sitting back and trying to farm with Q while running.
Thoughts? Sorry about dumping this in General, but there's no Zac thread yet and I haven't played him enough to make one. I think SV would be core on him as far as defense items goes. I only have anecdotal evidence about powerful Zac opponents, but it seems like it's really useful for all the reasons CDR and MR is useful PLUS the healing for his passive.
I like going for Magic Pen boots, and a Guise on Zac if winning lane early, then get Zhonya components/Spirit Visage depending upon the match up. Giants belt/Kindle gem can be bought and sat on until you want to complete spirit visage/Rylai's, Warmogs, you can even get Randuins if you want.
Edit: Ohm wrecker is a lot of fun on him.
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EPT
