• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 00:56
CET 05:56
KST 13:56
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL22] Finals Preview: Sweet Victory!12[ASL22] Ro4 Preview: Mirror Mirror6[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: Within Reach5[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: In A Tizzy11[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Holy Diver5
Community News
Weekly Cups (October 19-25): Clem triples first in 5.0.175Evil Geniuses - shutting down20ISSL (IntoTheTV x SOOP SC2 League): Premier6Weekly Cups (October 12-18): 5.0.17 era begins1[$1250] International ShieldBattery League92
StarCraft 2
General
SC2 Power Rank: epic29 No more SC2 streamers on team liquid? Weekly Cups (October 19-25): Clem triples first in 5.0.17 How do you feel about the mass reverts in the 5.0.17 PTR? Evil Geniuses - shutting down
Tourneys
RSL goes to London! 2026 Offline Finals Nov 21-22 ISSL (IntoTheTV x SOOP SC2 League): Premier Stellar Fest TWO the Moon (Dec 16-20) RSL 2026 Offline Finals LCQ Sign-Ups Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament
Strategy
[H] ZvP Mid-Late Game: Stalkers Collossi HT
Custom Maps
Simple Questions/Answers [G] How to playtest arcade maps [A] Nemrods 1/4 players
External Content
Mutation # 549 Endless Sparkles The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 548 Shining Bright Mutation # 547 Temple Of Terror
Brood War
General
Bot on ladder SCHNAIL now supports Remastered Rollback Netcode in Brood War BW General Discussion [Megathread] Daily Funny Videos
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [Women's StarCraft] MonstarZ vs BA 2026-10-30 Star Con San Diego 2026 Small VOD Thread 2.0
Strategy
50,000-Word Terran Builds Memo 2026-10-22 Cliff Jump Revisited (1 in a 1000 strategy) Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Mobile Legends: Bang Bang Armies of Exigo - YesYes? General RTS Discussion Thread
Dota 2
Dota 2 Champions League Season 3 Begins April 25!
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Trading/Investing Thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread US Politics Mega-thread R I P Patrick Stewart
Fan Clubs
Reynor Fan Club The Flash Fan Club Serral Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece
Sports
TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 Football (Soccer) Thread MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
Recent Gifted Posts
Blogs
Why I built Repalyzer (1.1.…
BlueStar
Innovate or Game Over?
TrAiDoS
ShieldBattery on Mac
Kraekkling
[ASL22] Ro4 Day1 Ticket Giv…
bITt.mAN
Can Bots Beat Pros?? Starcr…
namkraft
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 10550 users

[Patch 3.05.2: April Fools] League of Legends General Disc…

Forum Index > LoL General
Post a Reply
Prev 1 94 95 96 97 98 113 Next
Zergneedsfood
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
United States10671 Posts
April 08 2013 20:09 GMT
#1901
Pretty sure there are a few top laners like Renekton or Riven and you get the dblade purely so you can all-in at like....level 2. I haven't tried it for myself so I don't know how good it is....but it sounds awful.
/人◕ ‿‿ ◕人\ Make a contract with me and join TLADT | Onodera isn't actually a girl, she's just a doormat you walk over to get to the girl. - Numy 2015
Alaric
Profile Joined November 2009
France45622 Posts
April 08 2013 20:10 GMT
#1902
On April 09 2013 04:33 sylverfyre wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 09 2013 03:53 TheYango wrote:
On April 09 2013 03:47 sylverfyre wrote:
On April 09 2013 03:40 TheYango wrote:
On April 09 2013 03:18 sylverfyre wrote:
To be fair some of this niche is taken by Runes instead.

I would argue that it was partly the intent of runes and masteries to replace the granularity of starting items in the first place.

Agreed. We don't need branches and shit, that's what runes are for.
I wouldnt complain if dorans were a little more viable for level 1 items, but that would so easily turn into a situation of "only buy dorans + pots (+ward) level 1 ever"


I mean, I would like to see low-cost dead-end items that represent the extreme for cost/slot-efficiency tradeoffs, but that's not going to happen. And if Riot is just going to make them all build into things, there's not a big reason to have them in the game.

Or even a compromise : It's ok if they DO build into things, but the things they build into are not cost-efficient upgrades. Hexdrinker -> Maw of Malmortius is a good example: You get hexdrinker early, you don't touch maw until you're at 4+ items and you still want it. I feel like Brutalizer->Cleaver and other items should fit this power curve, but it's extremely rare in League. (Haunting Guise/Liandry's Torment is the only other thing I can think of that is even close to a power curve like that.)

Liandry's a super good buy on a lot of champs, you even see champs buy Guise mainly because they'll get Liandry's later. If anything it's an example of a good opportunity cost (get a Guise for stronger midgame) gone wrong (it's never a bad thing because you can upgrade it to Liandry's anytime).
Cant take LMS hipsters serious.
DrunkenOne
Profile Joined August 2012
United States302 Posts
April 08 2013 20:10 GMT
#1903
On April 09 2013 05:09 Zergneedsfood wrote:
Pretty sure there are a few top laners like Renekton or Riven and you get the dblade purely so you can all-in at like....level 2. I haven't tried it for myself so I don't know how good it is....but it sounds awful.

iirc it was pretty standard even last season vs like vlad or someone else with awful early game
Yarr?
Zergneedsfood
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
United States10671 Posts
April 08 2013 20:11 GMT
#1904
On April 09 2013 05:10 DrunkenOne wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 09 2013 05:09 Zergneedsfood wrote:
Pretty sure there are a few top laners like Renekton or Riven and you get the dblade purely so you can all-in at like....level 2. I haven't tried it for myself so I don't know how good it is....but it sounds awful.

iirc it was pretty standard even last season vs like vlad or someone else with awful early game


Maybe that's why I fed first blood vlad every game!!!!!!

Just kidding. My vlad is super awful.
/人◕ ‿‿ ◕人\ Make a contract with me and join TLADT | Onodera isn't actually a girl, she's just a doormat you walk over to get to the girl. - Numy 2015
kainzero
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States5211 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-08 20:18:56
April 08 2013 20:18 GMT
#1905
On April 09 2013 04:29 onlywonderboy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 09 2013 04:26 ticklishmusic wrote:
On April 09 2013 03:49 overt wrote:
On April 09 2013 03:15 ticklishmusic wrote:
Man, you guys are doing it wrong if you're complaining about not having enough stuff at the start.

I mean like, you have the option of all these wonderful Doran's items, then you can take your pick of consumables and one or two regen items. I think its great.

Also, heavy consumables start is kind of underrated on some supports. Taking 3 or 4 mana pots on Lulu is soooo abusive, and taking the pickpocket mastery totally makes up for it.

EDIT: freeweek blitz, time to always ban


The only role you can really open a dorans item is ADC. There are probably some mid lane match ups or top lane match ups where Dring/Dblade/Dshield could work but it'd probably be a bit risky and if you have one even trade you're going to be behind or forced to back to get pots so you have to either farm without being harassed at all or harass them without being harassed back.

If they nerf the amount of starting pots you'll just see lots of mid laners go flask+pots or faerie charm+5pot+ward. Non-mana using top laners probably go something like cloth+5pot a lot.

edit:
I don't wanna go back to season 1 where everyone bought Dblade+2pot or Dring+2pot.


Err, I was being sarcastic. That's why I used italics.

Everyone knows sarcasm is backwards italics.

i yllatot agree with that.
Gahlo
Profile Joined February 2010
United States35174 Posts
April 08 2013 20:23 GMT
#1906
On April 09 2013 05:18 kainzero wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 09 2013 04:29 onlywonderboy wrote:
On April 09 2013 04:26 ticklishmusic wrote:
On April 09 2013 03:49 overt wrote:
On April 09 2013 03:15 ticklishmusic wrote:
Man, you guys are doing it wrong if you're complaining about not having enough stuff at the start.

I mean like, you have the option of all these wonderful Doran's items, then you can take your pick of consumables and one or two regen items. I think its great.

Also, heavy consumables start is kind of underrated on some supports. Taking 3 or 4 mana pots on Lulu is soooo abusive, and taking the pickpocket mastery totally makes up for it.

EDIT: freeweek blitz, time to always ban


The only role you can really open a dorans item is ADC. There are probably some mid lane match ups or top lane match ups where Dring/Dblade/Dshield could work but it'd probably be a bit risky and if you have one even trade you're going to be behind or forced to back to get pots so you have to either farm without being harassed at all or harass them without being harassed back.

If they nerf the amount of starting pots you'll just see lots of mid laners go flask+pots or faerie charm+5pot+ward. Non-mana using top laners probably go something like cloth+5pot a lot.

edit:
I don't wanna go back to season 1 where everyone bought Dblade+2pot or Dring+2pot.


Err, I was being sarcastic. That's why I used italics.

Everyone knows sarcasm is backwards italics.

i yllatot agree with that.

ɯsɐɔɹɐs uɐılıɐɹʇsnɐ uo pǝʇɹɐʇs ǝɯ ʇǝƃ uǝʌǝ ʇ,uop
57 Corvette
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Canada5941 Posts
April 08 2013 20:33 GMT
#1907
On April 09 2013 05:09 Zergneedsfood wrote:
Pretty sure there are a few top laners like Renekton or Riven and you get the dblade purely so you can all-in at like....level 2. I haven't tried it for myself so I don't know how good it is....but it sounds awful.


On occasion I open Dblade on toplane Xin (only when laning against someone like yorick though), and All-in at level 2 with the jungler who just got blue.
Survival is winning, everything else is bullshit.
jcarlsoniv
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States27922 Posts
April 08 2013 20:34 GMT
#1908
On April 09 2013 05:23 Gahlo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 09 2013 05:18 kainzero wrote:
On April 09 2013 04:29 onlywonderboy wrote:
On April 09 2013 04:26 ticklishmusic wrote:
On April 09 2013 03:49 overt wrote:
On April 09 2013 03:15 ticklishmusic wrote:
Man, you guys are doing it wrong if you're complaining about not having enough stuff at the start.

I mean like, you have the option of all these wonderful Doran's items, then you can take your pick of consumables and one or two regen items. I think its great.

Also, heavy consumables start is kind of underrated on some supports. Taking 3 or 4 mana pots on Lulu is soooo abusive, and taking the pickpocket mastery totally makes up for it.

EDIT: freeweek blitz, time to always ban


The only role you can really open a dorans item is ADC. There are probably some mid lane match ups or top lane match ups where Dring/Dblade/Dshield could work but it'd probably be a bit risky and if you have one even trade you're going to be behind or forced to back to get pots so you have to either farm without being harassed at all or harass them without being harassed back.

If they nerf the amount of starting pots you'll just see lots of mid laners go flask+pots or faerie charm+5pot+ward. Non-mana using top laners probably go something like cloth+5pot a lot.

edit:
I don't wanna go back to season 1 where everyone bought Dblade+2pot or Dring+2pot.


Err, I was being sarcastic. That's why I used italics.

Everyone knows sarcasm is backwards italics.

i yllatot agree with that.

ɯsɐɔɹɐs uɐılıɐɹʇsnɐ uo pǝʇɹɐʇs ǝɯ ʇǝƃ uǝʌǝ ʇ,uop


That was only Australian. I fail to see and backwards italics there.
Soniv ||| Soniv#1962 ||| @jcarlsoniv ||| The Big Golem ||| Join the Glorious Evolution. What's your favorite aminal, a bear? ||| Joe "Don't call me Daniel" "Soniv" "Daniel" Carlsberg LXIX ||| Paging Dr. John Shadow
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-08 20:44:01
April 08 2013 20:42 GMT
#1909
when i used to play travian, we did sarcasm by typing in blue font.

it was pretty great, because only noobs would get confused by it and then we'd rag on them.

if i saw an enemy with a dblade and i went like longsword or cloth, i'd just play passive as possible until i'd backed and bought real items.

this is pretty lame, but from a lore perspective i'd like doran to get his memory back and make some OP Doran's items that build out of 2 or 3 of the basic ones huehuehue. or maybe something that build out of like dblade + bfsword, dring + nlr, or dshield + giant's belt
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
TSBspartacus
Profile Joined October 2011
England1046 Posts
April 08 2013 20:44 GMT
#1910
On April 09 2013 04:00 TheKefka wrote:
i see nothing has changed in regards to prime time login queues on EU west TT

I like that it says "hold on, we are experiencing an unusually large amount of summoners".
No, its just the usual, every friday without a doubt and most of the weekend.
Ghost-z
Profile Joined September 2010
United States1291 Posts
April 08 2013 20:45 GMT
#1911
So after red elixer gets nerfed...

Wouldn't it benefit everyone to scale NMM down to 300 gold so its a viable start against APs just like Cloth is against ADs. And also scale Amp Tome down to 400 gold just the same as Long Sword.

This way you could start with Defensive + 5 pots -OR- Offensive + 2 pots. You would still have the machete/flask/boots/charm/bead options.
Fairy Tales when you're a child begin with "Once upon a time" and when you're an adult begin, "If elected I promise..."
Goumindong
Profile Joined February 2013
United States3529 Posts
April 08 2013 20:55 GMT
#1912
Re: starting item variability and game theory

Part of the problem in attempting to create starting item variability is that creating mixed strategies for particular structures can be very unstable. That is suppose we could create a system that had people picking random starts between dblades and pots. In this case it may only take a small meta shift or item strength shift to move us to a non random starting set.

The reason for this is basically that the laning item start choice is roughly symmetric and zero sum. That is if we both chose the same options we will generally have the same outcome in the lane with regards to item effects. Even if an advantage in purchasing against the enemy lane by knowing what they bough could be attained the available options generally lie on a two dimensional spectrum if survivability and damage any threat of counter picking with item choices isn't credible.

Counter plays and varying item starts in general cannot be achieved in a game like league because of the way the game is necessarily structured.

What you find instead is that each matchup will have its optimal start and many times they will be the same if there isn't an inherent mismatch in the lane.

This is not necessarily a bad thing and attempts to create situations in which the enemy or your own choice is not determinate can backfire and destroy the underlying competitive systems in a game.

A good example of this can be seen in league with the penetration changes and the introduction if black cleaver. Black cleaver and the penetration changes were introduced in order to provide a counter play to stacking armor. But because stacking armor was a choice you made only if an enemy physical damage dealer was out of hand and the enemy magic damage dealer is not. That or if you needed to build against your lane in order to win lane. But because you only stacked armor int those situations the ability of physical damage dealers to counter your counter play meant that it never made sense to stack armor. Because of this much of the meta game involving team design was lost since you no longer needed to ensure your teams damage composition had the variety to protect against that. Thus non utility mages fell off since you could do just as we'll with the physical damage dealers and not suffer the disadvantages of ap champions.

Please excuse spelling errors as this was posted with a phone.
zulu_nation8
Profile Blog Joined May 2005
China26351 Posts
April 08 2013 21:06 GMT
#1913
how is variability the same as random
LateralusGaming
Profile Joined March 2013
119 Posts
April 08 2013 21:07 GMT
#1914
http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/1bungs/idea_adding_new_cheap_starting_items_theory/

This was posted on Reddit the other day. I thought it was interesting. What does the TL community think?
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-08 21:14:53
April 08 2013 21:10 GMT
#1915
The thing is, it doesn't fundamentally accomplish anything, because the granularity in starting stats you can obtain from adjusting runes/masteries is far more than is ever possible from starting items, even with these "fragment" items (runes even operate in fractional values, ffs). Riot got too hung up on the idea of people starting with the same items over the last 2 seasons being a bad thing and just nerfed the corresponding items each season so now people just don't start with any items.

Realistically, with what's possible with runes/masteries, the reason for homogeneous starting items is that you can simply just buy the most cost-efficient start possible, and do all your matchup-specific tweaking via runes/masteries (because you have far more specificity and optimization possible from that anyway). Which is precisely what people do.
Moderator
IamPryda
Profile Joined April 2011
United States1186 Posts
April 08 2013 21:13 GMT
#1916
im looking to learn a new top laner to add to my current pool. right now i play singed,yorick,malphite, and a bit of teemo. i tried rumble but didnt really like him that much. i was thinking kha, elise, or kayle. based on my current will anyone of those add something i am missing or any of those be easy to pick up based on the champs i play now?
Moar banelings less qq
NeoIllusions
Profile Blog Joined December 2002
United States37500 Posts
April 08 2013 21:14 GMT
#1917
On April 09 2013 05:42 ticklishmusic wrote:
when i used to play travian, we did sarcasm by typing in blue font.

it was pretty great, because only noobs would get confused by it and then we'd rag on them.

if i saw an enemy with a dblade and i went like longsword or cloth, i'd just play passive as possible until i'd backed and bought real items.

this is pretty lame, but from a lore perspective i'd like doran to get his memory back and make some OP Doran's items that build out of 2 or 3 of the basic ones huehuehue. or maybe something that build out of like dblade + bfsword, dring + nlr, or dshield + giant's belt


WTF someone say Travian?!?
ModeratorFor the Glory that is TeamLiquid (-9 | 155) | Discord: NeoIllusions#1984
Dusty
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States3359 Posts
April 08 2013 21:15 GMT
#1918
On April 09 2013 06:14 NeoIllusions wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 09 2013 05:42 ticklishmusic wrote:
when i used to play travian, we did sarcasm by typing in blue font.

it was pretty great, because only noobs would get confused by it and then we'd rag on them.

if i saw an enemy with a dblade and i went like longsword or cloth, i'd just play passive as possible until i'd backed and bought real items.

this is pretty lame, but from a lore perspective i'd like doran to get his memory back and make some OP Doran's items that build out of 2 or 3 of the basic ones huehuehue. or maybe something that build out of like dblade + bfsword, dring + nlr, or dshield + giant's belt


WTF someone say Travian?!?


travian master race reporting in

romans4lyfe
NeoIllusions
Profile Blog Joined December 2002
United States37500 Posts
April 08 2013 21:15 GMT
#1919
On April 09 2013 06:13 IamPryda wrote:
im looking to learn a new top laner to add to my current pool. right now i play singed,yorick,malphite, and a bit of teemo. i tried rumble but didnt really like him that much. i was thinking kha, elise, or kayle. based on my current will anyone of those add something i am missing or any of those be easy to pick up based on the champs i play now?


Renekton, Elise, Akali
ModeratorFor the Glory that is TeamLiquid (-9 | 155) | Discord: NeoIllusions#1984
NeoIllusions
Profile Blog Joined December 2002
United States37500 Posts
April 08 2013 21:16 GMT
#1920
On April 09 2013 06:15 Dusty wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 09 2013 06:14 NeoIllusions wrote:
On April 09 2013 05:42 ticklishmusic wrote:
when i used to play travian, we did sarcasm by typing in blue font.

it was pretty great, because only noobs would get confused by it and then we'd rag on them.

if i saw an enemy with a dblade and i went like longsword or cloth, i'd just play passive as possible until i'd backed and bought real items.

this is pretty lame, but from a lore perspective i'd like doran to get his memory back and make some OP Doran's items that build out of 2 or 3 of the basic ones huehuehue. or maybe something that build out of like dblade + bfsword, dring + nlr, or dshield + giant's belt


WTF someone say Travian?!?


travian master race reporting in

romans4lyfe


Build all the praetoriansssss.
ModeratorFor the Glory that is TeamLiquid (-9 | 155) | Discord: NeoIllusions#1984
Prev 1 94 95 96 97 98 113 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Replay Cast
08:00
GSL CK 6
CranKy Ducklings142
Liquipedia
OSC
07:00
Masters Cup #151: Group D
Liquipedia
The PiG Daily
05:30
Best Games of SC
herO vs Rogue
GuMiho vs ShoWTimE
Clem vs herO
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft: Brood War
Rain 4031
scan(afreeca) 159
Sexy 75
Icarus 10
Dota 2
PGG 246
NeuroSwarm112
League of Legends
JimRising 678
Super Smash Bros
C9.Mang0262
Other Games
summit1g11896
WinterStarcraft329
XaKoH 320
RuFF_SC2132
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick930
[ Show 9 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Other Games
• Scarra985
Upcoming Events
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5h 4m
WardiTV Invitational
7h 4m
Epic.LAN
8h 4m
IPSL
11h 4m
eOnzErG vs McRibbed
LancerX vs StRyKeR
AI Arena Tournament
12h 4m
OSC
1d 9h
Yamato Cup
1d 10h
IPSL
1d 12h
Artosis vs RiceHat
Kyrie vs Sony
Map Test Tournament
1d 18h
WardiTV Weekly
2 days
[ Show More ]
Ultimate Battle
2 days
Rush vs BeSt
Replay Cast
2 days
Rogue vs Classic
Patches Events
3 days
PiGosaur Cup
3 days
Kung Fu Cup
4 days
The PondCast
5 days
KCM Race Survival
5 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-10-30
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
HCC Season 3

Ongoing

Acropolis #5
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 4
International ShieldBattery League
BSL Season 23
IPSL Winter 2026-27
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 5
1win Private Club #2
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
1win Private Club #1
Logitech G Play Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #3
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026

Upcoming

1xBet Invitational
SC4ALL II: Brood War
BSL 23: Non-Korean Championship
HSC XXX
Stellar Fest 2: Lunar Cup
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
BLAST Bounty Winter 2027
eXTREMESLAND 2026
PGL Major Singapore 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 6
BLAST Rivals Fall 2026
IEM Beijing 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.