EPTworth it?
[Patch 3.03: Quinn] General Discussion - Page 42
| Forum Index > LoL General |
|
Keniji
Netherlands2569 Posts
worth it? | ||
|
wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On March 05 2013 02:32 VayneAuthority wrote: one champ that is a beast in the jungle again with BOTRK is skarner...if they make it to level 6 junglers with not that many deaths you might as well surrender Holy shit, talk about a champion that's fallen off the face of the planet since s3 changes... I think his problems still exist despite your suggestion of botrk skarner. botrk just makes him deal more damage, but it doesn't get over his immense weak spots. | ||
|
sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
On March 05 2013 04:36 Keniji wrote: oh good hybrid mpen/arpen runes so expensive zzz worth it? I hope so, I want them too D: On March 05 2013 04:36 wei2coolman wrote: Holy shit, talk about a champion that's fallen off the face of the planet since s3 changes... I think his problems still exist despite your suggestion of botrk skarner. botrk just makes him deal more damage, but it doesn't get over his immense weak spots. FEEL MY STI.... oh you flashed. Make Impale instant cast time. Infinite duress is instant, Hyper-kinetic blah blah SWAP is instant... why isn't Impale instant? The cast time before (when you would flash/jump away from Skarner then get pulled back by impale...) had the effect of lengthening Impale's duration by the length of its cast time (as you couldn't escape once the cast had started) and now it just leaves a giant gaping hole in Skarner's signature ability, because anyone with a jump/blink will get out of it. That skarner relies on flash to get many impales off means that Skarner loses his way to initiate, while his opponent avoids getting initiated on. Skarner loses a lot more in this flash-for-flash deal. That champs like Ezreal or even normal jumps like Khazix can break the tether before getting impaled is even more ridiculous. | ||
|
UniversalSnip
9871 Posts
Agree with bly, the proof really is simple math, same thing that's made locket quasi-secretly op for a while now (although not anywhere near to the same degree). It's so simple I don't understand why people at riot apparently aren't looking at this stuff. I know they have the same spreadsheets we do, are they just filling them with extraneous data or something so they stop being useful? As far as it not "warping the game", give it some time. It's much more significant than cleaver was. My guess is that within less than a week it's going to be standard to build zero health in your first few items. Why bother? It's just going to get burnt off once people start finishing blade anyway. Just stack armor. That we're probably going to get pushed back into s2 style despite the global base revaluation is a testament to how crazy this thing is. | ||
|
wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
I think pre-s3 black cleaver was more broken than botrk, just by nature of the ability to stack black cleavers, and the fact it gave defensive stats. | ||
|
Alaric
France45622 Posts
On March 05 2013 03:42 ticklishmusic wrote: The biggest problem I see with BoRK is that a team tends to get two of them and can rush Baron really, really early. Max 90 damage versus minions doesn't seem that great, but good god it takes him down fast. *3 Our game had Jax, Zed and MF rush BotRK on the other team, and I was surprised their WW didn't. Our team had Kayle get it after her Nashor's (out of mimicry I think, he wasn't very good, died with his ult available ~5-6 times and that cost us the game), Shen after I told him why they won fights despite even cs/kills (they rushed BotRK, we didn't), and as Mundo I ended up building one too. I was somewhat impossible to kill barring huge focus later on, but for that I rushed Randuin's -> Tabi -> Locket and we had double aegis on the team... The interesting bit is that Tristana would still beat WW and Jax 1v1 (not Zed because of his ult's burst) and she built BotRK-free (shiv->IE->BT->LW->chain vest). Still boring as hell. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On March 05 2013 04:45 wei2coolman wrote: I think pre-s3 black cleaver was more broken than botrk, just by nature of the ability to stack black cleavers, and the fact it gave defensive stats. They're not really comparable. Black Cleaver in preseason was good because it suited a certain subset of champions ridiculously well. BotRK on the other hand is a one-size-fits-all item that matches the needs of a wide variety of different champions--acting as a good single-DPS item for bruisers that need a one-off damage item to go with a mix of defensive items, while also providing desirable stats/active for an AD that will add more damage items. | ||
|
sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
On March 05 2013 04:45 Alaric wrote: *3 Our game had Jax, Zed and MF rush BotRK on the other team, and I was surprised their WW didn't. Our team had Kayle get it after her Nashor's (out of mimicry I think, he wasn't very good, died with his ult available ~5-6 times and that cost us the game), Shen after I told him why they won fights despite even cs/kills (they rushed BotRK, we didn't), and as Mundo I ended up building one too. I was somewhat impossible to kill barring huge focus later on, but for that I rushed Randuin's -> Tabi -> Locket and we had double aegis on the team... The interesting bit is that Tristana would still beat WW and Jax 1v1 (not Zed because of his ult's burst) and she built BotRK-free (shiv->IE->BT->LW->chain vest). Still boring as hell. The interesting thing is that Trist's build does pretty well against BOTRK abusers because it just fucking kills them, and doesn't really get punished for high HP. Trist is also pretty disgusting to try and 1v1 once she has IE + Shiv + enough levels to have good range / max rapidfire. | ||
|
wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On March 05 2013 04:47 TheYango wrote: They're not really comparable. Black Cleaver in preseason was good because it suited a certain subset of champions ridiculously well. BotRK on the other hand is a one-size-fits-all item that matches the needs of a wide variety of different champions--acting as a good single-DPS item for bruisers that need a one-off damage item to go with a mix of defensive items, while also providing desirable stats/active for an AD that will add more damage items. Well I was more talking about the overall impact on game balance, not really the type of impact. | ||
|
sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
On March 05 2013 04:47 TheYango wrote: They're not really comparable. Black Cleaver in preseason was good because it suited a certain subset of champions ridiculously well. BotRK on the other hand is a one-size-fits-all item that matches the needs of a wide variety of different champions--acting as a good single-DPS item for bruisers that need a one-off damage item to go with a mix of defensive items, while also providing desirable stats/active for an AD that will add more damage items. One size fits all is right. It's like now AD's have a single item that gives you the benefits of both Liandry's Torment (current% HP whittle-down) AND Deathfire Grasp (BLOW THEM UP NAO) all in one! It gives you all the sidestats you need to abuse it, PLUS lifesteal! | ||
|
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On March 05 2013 04:48 sylverfyre wrote: The interesting thing is that Trist's build does pretty well against BOTRK abusers because it just fucking kills them, and doesn't really get punished for high HP. Trist is also pretty disgusting to try and 1v1 once she has IE + Shiv + enough levels to have good range / max rapidfire. It's not all that interesting because again, the BotRK proc isn't as appealing lategame as it appears in comparison to crit-based damage. It's effectiveness is highest at the 1-2 item timing because it provides rounded stats but has a proc that pairs inefficiently with crit. Put a different way, BotRK scales well with time (proc getting better as the game goes longer), but doesn't scale amazingly well with other items (since the proc doesn't crit). This inherently makes it somewhat weaker on champs that have high farm priority and get lots of damage items (AD carries--because they rely on the synergistic scaling of multiple damage items), and stronger on champs that don't get as much farm or need to invest in defensive stats (everyone else--because they rely on the strength of 1-2 damage items even into lategame) That said, the item is strong enough right now that "somewhat weaker" doesn't mean a whole lot. | ||
|
sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
It doesn't make your analysis wrong (BOTRK is indeed completely great for bruisers who rely on 1-2 items for damage) but It's still going to be extremely good for AD carries because it still scales "Good enough" with what ADCs are building and also gives them an active which is AMAZING when you're trying to fight a meaty bruiser who jumped on your face. Just steal 400 life and 30% MS from him and kite/kill him. That doesn't really make the item bad for Tristana, it just makes that particular tristana's build just peachy at fighting off a BOTRK user, and it abuses the "classic" AD carry style of building - lots of crit, lots of damage, lots of AS, and an IE multiplier for the crit. A trist with that many items cares not what items the enemy has, she's in hypercarry mode. | ||
|
wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On March 05 2013 04:59 sylverfyre wrote: Eh... Crit is basically the only thing that BOTRK DOESN'T scale with. It scales perfectly well with AS, Armor Pen, and even gets to scale with something that standard damage items don't scale with: Enemy max health. That doesn't really make the item bad for Tristana, it just makes that particular tristana's build just peachy at fighting off a BOTRK user, and it abuses the "classic" AD carry style of building - lots of crit, lots of damage, lots of AS, and an IE multiplier for the crit. A trist with that many items cares not what items the enemy has, she's in hypercarry mode. scaling with AS, is one dimensional vs scaling with Crit and AS. | ||
|
EquilasH
Denmark2142 Posts
On March 04 2013 21:39 sylverfyre wrote: @Morellonomicon - MP5 is hard to rate cost-efficiency of. It is deliberately not valued as 60G per point on larger items, because it gets less useful the more you have of it (think of it this way - if you had 200 mp5, it would have no value at all, on any character) I wouldn't mind 200 mp5 on kassadin, or even 500 for that matter. | ||
|
sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
On March 05 2013 05:02 wei2coolman wrote: scaling with AS, is one dimensional vs scaling with Crit and AS. There's the added dimension of scaling with enemy max HP (which rises as the game goes on) And there's still scaling with Armor Pen (Which MBR was lacking, which is one reason why MBR was a terrible item) as well. On March 05 2013 05:03 EquilasH wrote: I wouldn't mind 200 mp5 on kassadin, or even 500 for that matter. Ugh... now you're just abusing my words. On literally every character in the game except Kassadin, you cannot directly translate increased MP5 into increased damage from individual abilities. Kassadin's stacking mechanic for his ult is the only ability that operates in that manner. At some point, you have enough mana to use your abilities enough times until the enemies are dead. Beyond that, more mana is wasted. Thus, you can't value MP5 at a flat gold value, and so using FC's 180G for 3MP5 is a fallacy when you're calculating the gold efficiency of Morellonomicon. Even kassadin can't really use additional mana regen past ~1000 MP5. His ult only stacks up to 10! | ||
|
Alaric
France45622 Posts
It's still extremely annoying to play against early game, because it makes its user much harder to kill than a Triforce user, or even a Gunblade user (for all the love I have for Gunblade Jax, his burst, damage and utility are all weaker than a BotRK Jax), and boring in general because you only see that. I motivated myself to play, but now after this one I don't even want to queue up for another one, because of how stale, uniform and boring it is. Can't get interested (I barely played during League of Cleavers too). What's further annoying me is that I haven't played ranked in nearly a month either so I'll have to play one before they fix BotRK if I want to avoid decaying... and I feel that it's just gonna be a tossup and no fun at all. A chore, basically. | ||
|
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On March 05 2013 05:12 sylverfyre wrote: There's the added dimension of scaling with enemy max HP (which rises as the game goes on) And there's still scaling with Armor Pen (Which MBR was lacking, which is one reason why MBR was a terrible item) as well. That's not an added dimension because it scales additively with AD, not multiplicatively. | ||
|
ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
On March 05 2013 03:52 Amui wrote: Well to put it in perspective, botrk is only slightly less than wriggles in terms of damage per hit to baron(more AD, less proc damage), and with the extra AS is significantly more DPS. The added benefit of also leeching a ton of health can't be understated. It makes it significantly less risky to do baron. Also, champs like udyr(tiger) and WW can almost solo baron at the 15 minute mark with botrk. Just sending a support to add in that little bit of tanking power and damage is already enough to duo it with ease. It used to be at around 35 minutes you'd pick a guy off and do Baron. Now it's like 20 minutes. | ||
|
sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
On March 05 2013 05:18 TheYango wrote: That's not an added dimension because it scales additively with AD, not multiplicatively. It scales multiplicatively with AS and Armor Pen, though. It's basically a variable amount of AD which is based on the health of your enemies, but doesn't crit. It still goes up as the game progresses (though at some point, critscaling will pass it up on a per-auto basis, I'm aware.) And then there's the ridonkulous active, which is stupid good for kiting and peeling and everything! Because of the activate, BT has to SERIOUSLY outperform BOTRK by quite a lot in order to actually be a better pickup. It also doesn't help that when you pick it up early game, you don't have to collect 3 more minutes worth of CS before you're at your full potential. | ||
|
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
AD*AS*Crit*ArPen compared to (AD+BotRK)*AS*ArPen. On March 05 2013 05:19 sylverfyre wrote: Because of the activate, BT has to SERIOUSLY outperform BOTRK by quite a lot in order to actually be a better pickup. It also doesn't help that when you pick it up early game, you don't have to collect 3 more minutes worth of CS before you're at your full potential. The BT comparison is essentially null after the remake anyway because BT by design is not a strong single item except on AD casters to begin with. | ||
| ||
