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On March 02 2013 04:43 zer0das wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2013 04:36 overt wrote:Cleanse is better after laning is over. Ignite is better in kill lanes if your opponent didn't get barrier (or in 2v1 lanes). This isn't true, you're completing ignoring team composition, which has a huge impact on whether cleanse or barrier is better. You can't flatly say cleanse is better in late game situations.
In a late game situation where you can get hard CC'd Cleanse is gonna be better than Barrier. Late game when you get hard CC'd you're gonna just get bursted down. With Barrier you'll probably still die or get extremely low. With Cleanse you can Flash out at near full HP.
Against a team with no burst or no CC I guess Barrier is better? Or maybe if you don't get CC'd at all and want to go hardcore aggressive at the end of a team fight Barrier could be better. Cleanse covers mistakes and misplays a lot better than Barrier does in the late game while also allowing you to be more aggressive earlier in a fight.
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On March 02 2013 04:31 Cheap0 wrote:
Did anyone see what that MF "Work Hard" poster said (0:57-0:59)? My 720p isn't enough to read the text.
soraka banana was the best
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Cleanse doesn't have any effect on knockup, suppression, knock back, grabs, or flings. You eat a bad headbutt/pulverize by Alistar, cleanse doesn't do you a bit of good. Barrier might. If the enemy team has something like Jarvan, Alistar, Vi and you pick cleanse, I'm going to laugh at you.
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On March 02 2013 04:40 UniversalSnip wrote:
botrk is busted, simple math. I don't think there's even fruitful discussion to be had about how good it is, it has too many stats for the cost.
Isn't that simple. You can't just look at the gold effectiveness of items and say that they are too good. For example, Nashors tooth would probably win any cost-effectiveness contest (WAY more cost effective then BotrK), but the stat combination on it are so weird that it is only good in edge cases. So, you can argue that BotrK is too good because it has synergistic stats on it while being pretty cost effective. You can't say it is too good just because it is too cost effective.
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In a late game situation where you can get hard CC'd Cleanse is gonna be better than Barrier. Late game when you get hard CC'd you're gonna just get bursted down. With Barrier you'll probably still die or get extremely low. With Cleanse you can Flash out at near full HP.
Again though, mid/lategame against like Vi/Malphite, isnt it better to just run Barrier and then get QSS if you still need it? If either of them want to get on your face, possibly even if you do have flash. Isnt it just better to have more health and and soak their burst, then try and kite?
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I just thought how cool it'd be if Riot saved the day and provided the necessary funding for IPL 6. I mean, it'd basically be an act of charity but Riot would basically be seen as the savior of ESPORTS and even the most spiteful SC2 Haters would have to pay respect.
Roit pls.
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Speaking of QSS, has anyone ever built Merc Scimitar...like ever?
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Chaox built it yesterday on his 6 item kog
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On March 02 2013 04:55 Purge wrote:Show nested quote +In a late game situation where you can get hard CC'd Cleanse is gonna be better than Barrier. Late game when you get hard CC'd you're gonna just get bursted down. With Barrier you'll probably still die or get extremely low. With Cleanse you can Flash out at near full HP. Again though, mid/lategame against like Vi/Malphite, isnt it better to just run Barrier and then get QSS if you still need it? If either of them want to get on your face, possibly even if you do have flash. Isnt it just better to have more health and and soak their burst, then try and kite?
In a team fight Malph or Vi ults will likely be followed up by additional CC. Against a team with jungle Vi, support Leona, and like Anivia or Ahri mid or something I'd still probably prefer Cleanse personally. If the team's only CC is Vi or Malph ult (or they have both Malph and Vi) then yeah take Barrier.
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On March 02 2013 04:53 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2013 04:40 UniversalSnip wrote:
botrk is busted, simple math. I don't think there's even fruitful discussion to be had about how good it is, it has too many stats for the cost. Isn't that simple. You can't just look at the gold effectiveness of items and say that they are too good. For example, Nashors tooth would probably win any cost-effectiveness contest (WAY more cost effective then BotrK), but the stat combination on it are so weird that it is only good in edge cases. So, you can argue that BotrK is too good because it has synergistic stats on it while being pretty cost effective. You can't say it is too good just because it is too cost effective.
no need to be pedantic... I'm pretty sure that goes without saying.
EDIT: Although the fact you call it "pretty cost efficient" makes me think you don't realize just how insane the stats are on it.
AD + LIFESTEAL + AS = 1550 / 45 * 30 + 600 + 950 / 30 * 40 = 2900. So it's on par on the base stats alone and then it has two major passives.
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If you build QSS, the upgrade should be your sixth item as it is not really that cost efficient compared to finishing basically any other item instead. Which as a result means that it is not built that often since the situation you would build it in just does not happen that often.
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In a team fight Malph or Vi ults will likely be followed up by additional CC. Against a team with jungle Vi, support Leona, and like Anivia or Ahri mid or something I'd still probably prefer Cleanse personally. If the team's only CC is Vi or Malph ult (or they have both Malph and Vi) then yeah take Barrier.
Yeah I suppose that it comes down to the amount of follow-through that they have on their team - if they can just cc you ad infinitum then it probably makes more sense to just run cleanse. Or play sivir, run cleanse, and buy banshees. Because fuck cc.
Speaking of Sivir now that I think of her, she really is the forgotten AD carry. I honestly dont think i have seen her for months. :S
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I just gave an example team where cleanse has almost 0 worth because the CC that's going to get chained on you can't be reduced. Even if the rest of the team's cc can be cleansed, you still have 3 champions that are royally going to jack you up while cleanse can't help you.
Unless you have a warmogs (and maybe another defense item), a few seconds of knockup is probably going to be enough to kill you and cleansing out of the followup cc isn't going to do you a lot of good anyways.
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yesterday i realized that in the era of doran's blade starts, it's super risky to run sivir since her attack range is so low
it's still fun to play her though
you feel baller when you have leona and she uses zenith blade on you but you have to spellshield the shield stun and not the blade.
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On March 02 2013 03:51 obesechicken13 wrote:
40% atk spd is pretty huge. So is percent health damage at 2.8k gold. It just shows that MBR which cost 3.8 k gold but had stats like armor and more AD, max% health in magic damage and allowed junglers to clear faster than camps died of old age, was actually a good item.
If for no other reason than 40% aspd, I agree BotRK is probably strong right now.
I really can't trust what anyone says about the game anymore when the community changes their opinions so much for no good reason. Watching this community is like watching a first grade soccer team, and riot is the other soccer team, and everyone's just chasing the ball rather than trying to get into position.
Compare BotRK for Statikk Shiv, for 300 gold. Remember that AD carries don't buy IE first anymore in most cases. Put some Value on Shiv's 20% crit. Compare it to the passive/active, 30 AD and 12% lifesteal from BotRK. Tell me it's overreacting again.
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On March 02 2013 05:14 zer0das wrote:
I just gave an example team where cleanse has almost 0 worth because the CC that's going to get chained on you can't be reduced. Even if the rest of the team's cc can be cleansed, you still have 3 champions that are royally going to jack you up while cleanse can't help you.
Unless you have a warmogs (and maybe another defense item), a few seconds of knockup is probably going to be enough to kill you and cleansing out of the followup cc isn't going to do you a lot of good anyways.
But if you're good, you avoid initial CC, and you never get hit by follow up CC. Just watch some of the top ADC's, their so fast on the cleanse + flash timing, that they pretty much go the rest of the fight dodging every cc after initiating cc.
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You can't dodge Vi ult.
*Spell shield, yes.
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On March 02 2013 05:14 zer0das wrote:
I just gave an example team where cleanse has almost 0 worth because the CC that's going to get chained on you can't be reduced. Even if the rest of the team's cc can be cleansed, you still have 3 champions that are royally going to jack you up while cleanse can't help you.
Unless you have a warmogs (and maybe another defense item), a few seconds of knockup is probably going to be enough to kill you and cleansing out of the followup cc isn't going to do you a lot of good anyways.
Yeah and if a team runs Jarvan, Vi, and Alistar it'd be dumb to run Cleanse. I don't think I've ever played against a team running a comp like that although even if all they had was Vi and Alistar it'd still probably be better to run Barrier.
But in most games you're probably better off running Cleanse. QSS doesn't give you the survivability of a Warmogs or Omen and while it can be useful against teams with like Malz or something in most situations Cleanse is going to be the best second summoner for an AD carry.
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That's all I'm saying. I agree that Cleanse is usually better, but not all of the time. 90% of the time? Probably.
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Compare BotRK for Statikk Shiv, for 300 gold. Remember that AD carries don't buy IE first anymore in most cases. Put some Value on Shiv's 20% crit. Compare it to the passive/active, 30 AD and 12% lifesteal from BotRK. Tell me it's overreacting again.
I think you are comparing it to the wrong thing. Compare BT to BotRK. You can have both Shiv and BotRK.
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EPT
