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On February 21 2013 09:06 wei2coolman wrote:
I still think Quinn is a dude.
Dude with boobplate. gj Riot.
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I've been crashing in almost half my games, as soon as the "Victory/Defeat" thing pops up, don't even get to click it, the game just crashes. I've seen another person here talk about it, does it happen to more?
Also if Quinn is due to hit at the next patch, then how shall we rename this GD thread?
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On February 21 2013 09:14 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2013 09:01 cLutZ wrote:On February 21 2013 08:46 Seuss wrote:On February 21 2013 08:36 Ketara wrote:So, I have decided I have a problem with GP10 runes. Lets see what you guys think of this. + Show Spoiler [Gp10 stuff] +If you're supporting and you have zero GP10 runes, it's a bad idea. I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm saying it's bad. It's possible to jungle without ever getting a machete, but that's bad. Spellsy's support guide for example has what like a dozen example rune pages, and every single one has GP10 quints. Not all of them have GP10 yellows, but GP10 quints minimum.
When I have a bad support in a game I typically look up their runes afterwards, and I'd say the majority of supports in my losing games do not have GP10 runes. It is a significant thing, because that 5 GP10 in a 30 minute game means nearly 1000 gold, which is so critical to a support.
So why is this bad? It's bad because it makes support more difficult to play than it should be, and is poor game design. Let me try to explain.
When you start playing you have 2 rune pages. Most people I think typically make an AP page and an AD page, figuring that you have these two pages and they'll in a general sense cover everything. If you're anal like me you have 10 pages just for one champion, but that's not necessary. An AP page and an AD page will cover near everything. As you get more rune pages you can tailor things for specific champions. This is all well and good.
However, if you want to support, you want to have a GP10 rune page. That GP10 rune page probably won't be used for anything but support. So it is severely limiting the diversity of your rune page options.
This is compounded by the problem that if you're playing solo queue, you will have to support some games. A lot of people don't like to do it, but they have to from time to time. If you don't have the rune page in a game where you have to support, you are at a disadvantage. You might still win, but you're at a disadvantage.
What this means is that if I'm starting ranked and I want to be able to reasonably cover all 5 positions, I have to have 3 rune pages minimum. One AP, one AD, and one support, because the support page needs GP10. This means I have to spend something like 9-10k IP on runes just to play ranked.
What makes this worse is that nowhere does the game explain to you that you probably want GP10 runes if you're supporting. Yeah you can look up guides, but not every player does that. A lot of people probably legitimately don't know. It's not like playing a Jungler where hey, the recommended starting item is a machete. So, to sum things up. If you're supporting it is a really good idea to have GP10 runes. GP10 runes do not really work for other positions, and it's not expressed anywhere in the game that you want them. In ranked games, you will have to support sometimes. So you are required to figure out on your own that you need a support rune page that won't work for any other position, and then spend something like 10k IP on it, just because you will have to do it some of the time. This is stupid. If GP10 runes were removed and support was made completely viable without them, the game would be a lot better. Honestly, if you're at the point where you only have two rune pages, you're probably not good enough at the game for Gp10 Quints to have a huge effect on your ability to play Support. If you're a super good DotA/HoN player switching to LoL, you definitely shouldn't need Gp10 Quints until well after you've earned the IP for that third rune page. For higher echelons of competitive play they're very important, but if you're new to ranked your greatest weakness is probably your lack of experience, not the 7845 IP you didn't spend to make a Gp10 support rune page. Well, I think the point is that they cause you to be 15 AP/14 Armor/ 75 HP/ 4.5% MS/etc worse off just so you have the income to be relevant for the duration of the game. This makes you feel weaker than you should. Which is exactly why they are not really necessary. Sure, they are useful, and i have them on my Support runepages. However, they are not more or less needed then other quints for other roles, and the disadvantage from having other quints as a support is not really much larger then the disadvantage from having suboptimal runepages on other roles. The fact that they make you weaker to give you more money is kind of obvious, that is the whole point of any gp10 thing in the game. It is not a bad thing, though. Having tradeoffs is a good idea. And i think the main problem is that the first post in this line equates causation with correlation. Your support does bad, and then you see he has no runes setup to support and assume that that is why he did bad. The much more reasonable explanation is that that guy barely plays support for whatever reason, and thus thinks that it is not worth it to invest IP into a support runepage. The same thing is also the reason why he is not very good at playing support, which as a result leads to him performing bad in the support role.
Ahh, but the problem is there are lots of players who don't like support (np GP5 runes) and suck at it and dont want to be playing it.
Of course, no one should be defending the current runepage/rune system UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES. Not being able to amend them in character select is absolutely ridiculous. Having to pay IP/RP for pages is ridiculous. And buying runes with IP is also ridiculous. (This all coming from a guy with like 15 runepages and almost every rune).
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On February 21 2013 09:15 Sufficiency wrote:Dude with boobplate. gj Riot.
Not the first time they've done it. Kayle and Leona still in dis game.
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On February 21 2013 09:21 Alaric wrote:
Also if Quinn is due to hit at the next patch, then how shall we rename this GD thread?
Quinn Pt 2?
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On February 21 2013 09:38 ketchup wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2013 09:21 Alaric wrote:
Also if Quinn is due to hit at the next patch, then how shall we rename this GD thread? Quinn Pt 2?
Valor
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On February 21 2013 09:26 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2013 09:15 Sufficiency wrote:On February 21 2013 09:06 wei2coolman wrote:
I still think Quinn is a dude. Dude with boobplate. gj Riot. Not the first time they've done it. Kayle and Leona still in dis game.
Ironstylus leaves his mark.
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[Patch 3.02: Valor] General Discussion
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On February 21 2013 09:25 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2013 09:14 Simberto wrote:On February 21 2013 09:01 cLutZ wrote:On February 21 2013 08:46 Seuss wrote:On February 21 2013 08:36 Ketara wrote:So, I have decided I have a problem with GP10 runes. Lets see what you guys think of this. + Show Spoiler [Gp10 stuff] +If you're supporting and you have zero GP10 runes, it's a bad idea. I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm saying it's bad. It's possible to jungle without ever getting a machete, but that's bad. Spellsy's support guide for example has what like a dozen example rune pages, and every single one has GP10 quints. Not all of them have GP10 yellows, but GP10 quints minimum.
When I have a bad support in a game I typically look up their runes afterwards, and I'd say the majority of supports in my losing games do not have GP10 runes. It is a significant thing, because that 5 GP10 in a 30 minute game means nearly 1000 gold, which is so critical to a support.
So why is this bad? It's bad because it makes support more difficult to play than it should be, and is poor game design. Let me try to explain.
When you start playing you have 2 rune pages. Most people I think typically make an AP page and an AD page, figuring that you have these two pages and they'll in a general sense cover everything. If you're anal like me you have 10 pages just for one champion, but that's not necessary. An AP page and an AD page will cover near everything. As you get more rune pages you can tailor things for specific champions. This is all well and good.
However, if you want to support, you want to have a GP10 rune page. That GP10 rune page probably won't be used for anything but support. So it is severely limiting the diversity of your rune page options.
This is compounded by the problem that if you're playing solo queue, you will have to support some games. A lot of people don't like to do it, but they have to from time to time. If you don't have the rune page in a game where you have to support, you are at a disadvantage. You might still win, but you're at a disadvantage.
What this means is that if I'm starting ranked and I want to be able to reasonably cover all 5 positions, I have to have 3 rune pages minimum. One AP, one AD, and one support, because the support page needs GP10. This means I have to spend something like 9-10k IP on runes just to play ranked.
What makes this worse is that nowhere does the game explain to you that you probably want GP10 runes if you're supporting. Yeah you can look up guides, but not every player does that. A lot of people probably legitimately don't know. It's not like playing a Jungler where hey, the recommended starting item is a machete. So, to sum things up. If you're supporting it is a really good idea to have GP10 runes. GP10 runes do not really work for other positions, and it's not expressed anywhere in the game that you want them. In ranked games, you will have to support sometimes. So you are required to figure out on your own that you need a support rune page that won't work for any other position, and then spend something like 10k IP on it, just because you will have to do it some of the time. This is stupid. If GP10 runes were removed and support was made completely viable without them, the game would be a lot better. Honestly, if you're at the point where you only have two rune pages, you're probably not good enough at the game for Gp10 Quints to have a huge effect on your ability to play Support. If you're a super good DotA/HoN player switching to LoL, you definitely shouldn't need Gp10 Quints until well after you've earned the IP for that third rune page. For higher echelons of competitive play they're very important, but if you're new to ranked your greatest weakness is probably your lack of experience, not the 7845 IP you didn't spend to make a Gp10 support rune page. Well, I think the point is that they cause you to be 15 AP/14 Armor/ 75 HP/ 4.5% MS/etc worse off just so you have the income to be relevant for the duration of the game. This makes you feel weaker than you should. Which is exactly why they are not really necessary. Sure, they are useful, and i have them on my Support runepages. However, they are not more or less needed then other quints for other roles, and the disadvantage from having other quints as a support is not really much larger then the disadvantage from having suboptimal runepages on other roles. The fact that they make you weaker to give you more money is kind of obvious, that is the whole point of any gp10 thing in the game. It is not a bad thing, though. Having tradeoffs is a good idea. And i think the main problem is that the first post in this line equates causation with correlation. Your support does bad, and then you see he has no runes setup to support and assume that that is why he did bad. The much more reasonable explanation is that that guy barely plays support for whatever reason, and thus thinks that it is not worth it to invest IP into a support runepage. The same thing is also the reason why he is not very good at playing support, which as a result leads to him performing bad in the support role. Ahh, but the problem is there are lots of players who don't like support (np GP5 runes) and suck at it and dont want to be playing it. Of course, no one should be defending the current runepage/rune system UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES. Not being able to amend them in character select is absolutely ridiculous. Having to pay IP/RP for pages is ridiculous. And buying runes with IP is also ridiculous. (This all coming from a guy with like 15 runepages and almost every rune).
The game is "free"after all.
Also it's solo q.Don't put so much actual thoughts into it :D.
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On February 21 2013 08:46 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2013 08:36 Ketara wrote:So, I have decided I have a problem with GP10 runes. Lets see what you guys think of this. + Show Spoiler [Gp10 stuff] +If you're supporting and you have zero GP10 runes, it's a bad idea. I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm saying it's bad. It's possible to jungle without ever getting a machete, but that's bad. Spellsy's support guide for example has what like a dozen example rune pages, and every single one has GP10 quints. Not all of them have GP10 yellows, but GP10 quints minimum.
When I have a bad support in a game I typically look up their runes afterwards, and I'd say the majority of supports in my losing games do not have GP10 runes. It is a significant thing, because that 5 GP10 in a 30 minute game means nearly 1000 gold, which is so critical to a support.
So why is this bad? It's bad because it makes support more difficult to play than it should be, and is poor game design. Let me try to explain.
When you start playing you have 2 rune pages. Most people I think typically make an AP page and an AD page, figuring that you have these two pages and they'll in a general sense cover everything. If you're anal like me you have 10 pages just for one champion, but that's not necessary. An AP page and an AD page will cover near everything. As you get more rune pages you can tailor things for specific champions. This is all well and good.
However, if you want to support, you want to have a GP10 rune page. That GP10 rune page probably won't be used for anything but support. So it is severely limiting the diversity of your rune page options.
This is compounded by the problem that if you're playing solo queue, you will have to support some games. A lot of people don't like to do it, but they have to from time to time. If you don't have the rune page in a game where you have to support, you are at a disadvantage. You might still win, but you're at a disadvantage.
What this means is that if I'm starting ranked and I want to be able to reasonably cover all 5 positions, I have to have 3 rune pages minimum. One AP, one AD, and one support, because the support page needs GP10. This means I have to spend something like 9-10k IP on runes just to play ranked.
What makes this worse is that nowhere does the game explain to you that you probably want GP10 runes if you're supporting. Yeah you can look up guides, but not every player does that. A lot of people probably legitimately don't know. It's not like playing a Jungler where hey, the recommended starting item is a machete. So, to sum things up. If you're supporting it is a really good idea to have GP10 runes. GP10 runes do not really work for other positions, and it's not expressed anywhere in the game that you want them. In ranked games, you will have to support sometimes. So you are required to figure out on your own that you need a support rune page that won't work for any other position, and then spend something like 10k IP on it, just because you will have to do it some of the time. This is stupid. If GP10 runes were removed and support was made completely viable without them, the game would be a lot better. Honestly, if you're at the point where you only have two rune pages, you're probably not good enough at the game for Gp10 Quints to have a huge effect on your ability to play Support. If you're a super good DotA/HoN player switching to LoL, you definitely shouldn't need Gp10 Quints until well after you've earned the IP for that third rune page. For higher echelons of competitive play they're very important, but if you're new to ranked your greatest weakness is probably your lack of experience, not the 7845 IP you didn't spend to make a Gp10 support rune page.
I would argue that the less skillful a support player you are, the more important it is to have the GP10 runes, because much of the skill of playing support comes from gold conservation and knowing exactly when to ward what and how to get as much relevant vision as possible with the minimum number of wards.
When you don't know how to do that in order to adequately support your team you have to just buy a fuckton of wards and ward all the things.
I would also argue that having GP10 quints is not the same as having say, AP quints for an AP mid. Because your generic AP page works for AP mids, AP tops, and AP junglers too. Your support page only works on supports. The reality is in order to cover every possible position adequately you have to have 3 rune pages, and yet you're only given two. But because of a lack of information saying hey, if you're supporting it's good to have GP10 runes, new players think they only need two, and it's not till they actually go out to ranked games, play support, never have any gold and have their whole team yelling at them for it that they figure it out.
If you're new to ranked your greatest weakness is obviously your lack of experience. But support is the only position where in order to play adequately you have to have a special rune page that won't work anywhere else. That's stupid. Is it possible to play decently without the runes just by being a better player than the other guy? Of course. But it's still stupid, which is more my point. It's stupid.
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Can you imagine what happens if GP10 quints are 2k IP each instead?
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On February 21 2013 09:57 Sufficiency wrote:
Can you imagine what happens if GP10 quints are 2k IP each instead?
Aren't they 500 something right now? Thats pretty cheap I wouldn't mind if they were 1k each
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you can support just as well without gp10 runes tbh
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On February 21 2013 10:02 Complete wrote:
you can support just as well without gp10 runes tbh
This is just straight up not true.
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On February 21 2013 10:02 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2013 10:02 Complete wrote:
you can support just as well without gp10 runes tbh This is just straight up not true.
MS quints pretty nice on play making supports like Taric or Leona
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On February 21 2013 10:03 MooMooMugi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2013 10:02 Ketara wrote:On February 21 2013 10:02 Complete wrote:
you can support just as well without gp10 runes tbh This is just straight up not true. MS quints pretty nice on play making supports like Taric or Leona
Okay, even given that this were true, it would still require a third rune page.
This is my point.
You are given 2 rune pages.
If you buy:
AD and Mpen reds
Armor yellows
MR blues
AD and AP quints
You literally cover every single champion in the game in every single role to at least some measure of decency EXCEPT for supports, with two pages.
If you want to support decently you are required to buy a third rune page that will only work for supports. If you support without that third rune page, yeah you can still probably do okay, but you're in just as much of a disadvantage as somebody playing an AP mid with no AP runes. Except that guy didn't have to get a third rune page and special runes that only work for one position.
That is stupid. If they are only going to give you two pages, you should be able to cover everything with two pages. You can't.
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On February 21 2013 10:02 Complete wrote:
you can support just as well without gp10 runes tbh
I stole one of EdWard's sona builds after seeing it on his stream, health quints armor red/yellows and it works really well, if only on sona to make her safer for early aggression. The lack of money later on is noticeable, but if you just steal some of the kills in lane phase you make up for it easily.
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i hate supporting dont have gp10 quints/runes yet my support winrate in ranked was like 85%
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On February 21 2013 10:08 Zinjil wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2013 10:02 Complete wrote:
you can support just as well without gp10 runes tbh I stole one of EdWard's sona builds after seeing it on his stream, health quints armor red/yellows and it works really well, if only on sona to make her safer for early aggression. The lack of money later on is noticeable, but if you just steal some of the kills in lane phase you make up for it easily.
ah so thats why good old pepper is stealing all the kills, to make up for the lack of money but better laning!
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MS Quints
Armor Yellows
Scaling MR Blues
AD Reds
Covers every position except melee support/melee AP's (melee support doesn't get AA harass and so doesn't benefit from AD reds, ditto melee AP's, who also don't tend to need it to last hit due to melee base damage advantages)
Not perfectly ideal mind you but good enough for government work.
edit: AD reds can actually be quite strong for mids and ranged supports since you will do a lot of your early trades with auto attacks.
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EPT
