EPT[Patch 3.02: Fake Quinn] General Discussion - Page 78
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ketchup
14521 Posts
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Phunkapotamus
United States496 Posts
On February 20 2013 07:42 Alaric wrote: I caught the "Very rarely will you land a perfect burst" part super fishy as well. My napkin math also shows his findings with lux to be incorrect. He's calculating "burst" with perfect lilandry's ticks. That's not burst. | ||
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Gaslo
Finland951 Posts
Feels so good, havent found a champ that just clicks in like... well since Ahri was released. | ||
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
On February 20 2013 07:42 Alaric wrote: + Show Spoiler [Mathy Stuff] + So... from what I got "Diff the Ender"'s theorycrafting on RoG leaves a fuckton to be desired. Now if somebody had some time on his hands (or some love for maths) I wouldn't be against a proof-read of the proof-read I did of his Liandry article. As in I got asked my opinion on it on another forum and went all "But TL didn't tell me yet what to think of it  " then wasted 80 minutes doing maths and copypasting numbers on a post.I'll start with his conclusion: Very rarely will you land a perfect burst where Liandry's only procs 3 seconds and not 5 or 6 seconds. This favours Liandry's even more. If you're wondering what two extra seconds of Liandry's tick would do (at 2% per tick) -- it would turn the "Lux not slowed" graph into what looks like the "Lux 4% per tick graph". Liandry's deals anywhere from around 25% to 200% more damage per spell depending on which spell and which enemy. Even more if it's a DoT spell like Malzahar's Malefic Visions. If your champion has any sort of damage over time ability or a reliable movement inhibiting CC (slow/stun/suppress/snare etc), always build a Liandry's over a Void Staff when presented with the choice (obviously both is better). He obviously has no idea that Liandry's ticks once every half-second for 1%, starting 0.5s after the spell damage, and is reset every time spell damage is applied, which results in most DoTs "eating" ticks until the last of their own. It also means if you cast a spell a second or less after the previous one, you'll only get 1 tick at most out of it (the 0.5s one), which destroys most of his arguments regarding "It doesn't matter that you burst harder because you don't click fast enough so you have extra ticks". Now if you look at the breakeven points then look back at your full burst, most of the time on the left half of the graph, you will actually end up killing the enemy. Another one of his "arguments": when Void Staff is better you 100-0 the enemy anyway so all those cases don't count. Except he says absolutely nothing about the inane cases that work for his opinion, like the 3000 HP 40 MR that obviously works better for Liandry's. It almost sounds like he biases his article on purpose, which would greatly annoy me for a guy claiming he gets theorycraft requests from pro players. Let's look at an example - if you land a Lux E, that's the AoE glowy thing that slows and you can detonate after, on a target with 50 MR and 1500 HP currently, you will deal roughly 25% more damage with a Liandry's than a Void Staff. I repeat - 25% more damage. And if they get slowed by someone else for the 3 seconds Liandry's ticks, then that becomes 50% more damage. Here's where I need proof-reading: I did some maths myself, based on his 22.8 flat, 8% MPen vs 1500 HP + 50 MR setup using Lux's E as damage. My results differ from his so much that I need to be sure I'm doing it right, because either way one of us screwed up heavily. + Show Spoiler [My maths] + 240 + 0.6 AP against 50 MR + 1500 HP. With a Void Staff (70 AP), we get 282 damage reduced to 263.3. With Liandry's (50 AP), 270 reduced to 219, then Liandry's ticks for 72 damage getting to 291. 1st tick : 1500 - 219 = 1281; 1% = 12.81 reduced to 10.39 -> 1270. 2nd tick : 1270 -> 10.31 -> 1260. 3rd tick : 1260 -> 10.22 -> 1250. 4th tick : 1250 -> 10.14 -> 1240. 5th tick : 1240 -> 10.06 -> 1230 6th tick : 1230 -> 9.98 -> 1220 (1219.86). -> ~61 more damage. I then realized Diff probably talked about 1500 HP when Liandry's starts ticking, so I redid the maths and ended with around 72 more damage. The 61 more damage case gives 280 damage total, meaning ~6% more damage for Liandry's, the 72 more damage case results in 291 total damage meaning ~10.5% over Void Staff. I calculated the "slowed for 3 seconds" case assuming 1500 HP before the spell and it went from 61 damage to 120, meaning 339 total damage from Lux's E and a 28.7% damage increase over the Void Staff case. Not that those numbers are insignificant (6% wouldn't be much but 10.5% is relatively high), but... Diff got 25% when I get at most 10.5%, and 50% when I get what I assume would be ~40-45% at most. Finally: I experimented with various values and realised that your current AP actually does not result in a significant difference in damage when comparing Liandry's to Void so I could eliminate that variable and purely use the values of Liandry's AP and Void Staff's AP to calculate the damage differences. I calculated that with a 0.6 AP ratio you get around 8-9% of your AP more damage (post-mitigation) with a Void Staff compared to Liandry's, and it improves as the ratio raises (Void Staff doing up to 13% of your AP more damage (post-mitigation again) on a 0.9 AP ratio spell against 150 MR targets), that's far from non-significant, dammit. With 300 additional AP (deathcap+masteries+almost any AP item on top of your Liandry's or Void Staff) that's ~30 more damage when your spells do 280-330 damage to your high MR targets, that's like 10 fucking % additional damage and he calls that "not significant" before gloating over Liandry's 10% "increase". I was under the impression that the recent patch changed Liandry's so that reapplications no longer munch ticks. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35173 Posts
On February 20 2013 07:45 Mondeezy wrote: Ah ok, got it. Thanks. He should be less of a pain to deal with in lane now thankfully. Which champs do you think new Botrk will be best on now? I can definitely see it being viable on ADs now with the bonus aspd/LS. Thinking it'll be strong on auto attack heavy tops such as Zed/Jax/Maybe bruiser nid? I'm waiting for the changes to die down on it before I start looking into it for Shyvana. On February 20 2013 07:01 Crownlol wrote: A query- what was the original "Always X, never not X"? Also, I love J4 but Flash messes up his ult so bad. Then you're just stuck in your own ult, cc'ing yourself. The ult should silence everyone caught inside it. If they blow their flash for my ult, fine by me. Blow a 5min escape tool for a, at max, 2min cooldown to get away from movement restriction that you already took damage from. I view it no different than if somebody were to use cleanse to get away from an ult that stuns(e.g. ECA), but they give up much more in comparison. | ||
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thenexusp
United States3721 Posts
On February 20 2013 07:59 Seuss wrote: I was under the impression that the recent patch changed Liandry's so that reapplications no longer munch ticks. I was under the impression that the patch notes made it sound like it wasn't munching ticks but it still was I'm at work so I can't test it though~ | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On February 20 2013 07:45 Mondeezy wrote: Ah ok, got it. Thanks. He should be less of a pain to deal with in lane now thankfully. Which champs do you think new Botrk will be best on now? I can definitely see it being viable on ADs now with the bonus aspd/LS. Thinking it'll be strong on auto attack heavy tops such as Zed/Jax/Maybe bruiser nid? On single offensive item Auto Attack based bruisers who can't use triforce or want a cheaper option at whatever timing they would get triforce. Ability based bruisers will want a brutalizer based item for the penetration and CDR, or whisper for the penetration. On BT first three item timing ADC's as a second item, especially Graves. For ADC's that lack crit the bonus damage will likely be significant enough to negate the critical strike advantage in PD. The additional AD will also provide a boost to abilities that normal attack speed items to not provide. Edit: Special mention: Since the passive procs on his q, ezreal also probably makes good use of it. On IE first four item timing ADC's as a fourth item, especially Tristana or Vayne. For ADC's that primarily want sustain out of BT the 40% attack speed will negate the raw AD advantage of BT. In addition as its cheaper to acquire and does not need to kill 30 minions to be at full power the timing advantage of 4th item BotRK will provide significant advantage. This may be negated somewhat by the large buff to lategame Tristana and Vanye's attack speed that may be coming in. But at current values BotRK provides almost guaranteed higher DPS than BT before considering the active. Don't know: For On-Hit auto attack based champions as a primary AS/Sustain item. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
Basically: - spell hits - 0.5s pass - Liandry ticks every 0.5s However, every time you deal spell damage again it resets Liandry's DoT, so: - spell DoT ticks - 0.5s pass - spell DoT ticks again, Liandry's doesn't tick (it should at 0.500001s for example) because it's reset - repeats until the DoT ends, then Liandry's ticks normally. Still doesn't change the fact that DIFF obviously crunches numbers without even checking his method. :/ | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
Am I just blind? | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On February 20 2013 08:09 Alaric wrote: It still munches them, I tested it right after the patch (and posted here), using Pantheon (I knew HSS ticked thrice over 0.75s, and used Q to test reapplying during the ticks) then Udyr (to test a standard 0.5s ticking DoT). Basically: - spell hits - 0.5s pass - Liandry ticks every 0.5s However, every time you deal spell damage again it resets Liandry's DoT, so: - spell DoT ticks - 0.5s pass - spell DoT ticks again, Liandry's doesn't tick (it should at 0.500001s for example) because it's reset - repeats until the DoT ends, then Liandry's ticks normally. Still doesn't change the fact that DIFF obviously crunches numbers without even checking his method. :/ While that does make me sad, in a nerd way, I think both of your math basically shows that now you shouldn't really ever feel bad building Haunting guise as your first item. Not only is it really good for when you get it (and easy to build, SO FREAKING EASY TO BUILD), but it is in no way a waste lategame. | ||
FlaShFTW
United States10402 Posts
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Sermokala
United States14127 Posts
On February 20 2013 08:42 FlaShFTW wrote: that feel when nasus continue buffed when he was already strong as hell. gj riot. Riot don't know bought jungle and support nasus. They're buffing him so that top nasus is a thing. | ||
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Parnage
United States7414 Posts
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
A lot of Taric's current power level exists because of the nerfs to fotm support over the last year. | ||
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onlywonderboy
United States23745 Posts
On February 20 2013 09:03 Seuss wrote: In before Riot adds AP ratios to Wukong. Riot just decides "fuck it" and they buff his clone to have 2.0 AP ration. That'd be pretty funny. | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
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UniversalSnip
9871 Posts
On February 20 2013 09:20 onlywonderboy wrote: Riot just decides "fuck it" and they buff his clone to have 2.0 AP ration. That'd be pretty funny. oh my god... i would love to see something like this, too funny. 4.0 ap ratio, the mindgames would be intense because if you're autoing me and I stop, if I'm not bluffing you just get one-shot. | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
On February 20 2013 09:22 UniversalSnip wrote: oh my god... i would love to see something like this, too funny. 4.0 ap ratio, the mindgames would be intense because if you're autoing me and I stop, if I'm not bluffing you just get one-shot. this actually sounds hilarious | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
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