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On February 20 2013 04:15 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2013 04:08 Gahlo wrote:On February 20 2013 04:04 Requizen wrote:
K I need a new jungler. Part of it is me having a short attention span and getting bored of Voli, part of it is him getting popular and me being petty about it. I have a couple that I play back and forth, but I had two random questions
1- Is Fizz a decent jungler anymore? I remember when he was released, they intended him to be a viable jungler, and you'd see it from time to time. Now, with decent AP builds out of the jungle and being a more single target oriented jungler not being that big of an issue, I thought he'd be worth a spin. I like characters that I can play in multiple roles, so I could learn him and take him to lane if need be.
2- Why can Renekton not jungle? I mean, I know in S2 he was slow as hell, but with the health redistribution, Cull the Meek + Slice/Dice should be more than enough for clearing, SotEL and SotAG are both good builds for him depending on your build path (disregarding the mana regen, of course), he has sustain, he has a dash and stun for ganks, he can build tanky and do well just as a jungler should. Is there some giant flaw that I'm missing? Who is in your current lineup jungle-wise? I've mostly been playing Skarner and Voli for the past few weeks in jungle, with a few one-offs. Ones that I've played enough to feel competent with: Skarner, Voli, Naut, Amumu (generally banned in Silver), Elise (kind of bores me tho), Darius (super fun), Warwick, Hec, Riven, Nunu (I always get bitched at for picking him tho). Ones that I have but don't play/haven't played enough: Xin, Vi, Rengar (I think he sucks as a jungler now), Kha, Cho, Rammus (fun but haven't had a chance to play him a lot), Jax, Jayce, Kayle, GP, Diana, Mundo, Akali, Lee (fuck Lee), Olaf (axes hard meng).
Heh, sorry for late response, Fringe OP. Uh, try J4? I've been having a ball and stomping everything with him. Satisfying as hell to play.
Always 'Macia, never not 'Macia.
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On February 20 2013 06:56 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2013 04:15 Requizen wrote:On February 20 2013 04:08 Gahlo wrote:On February 20 2013 04:04 Requizen wrote:
K I need a new jungler. Part of it is me having a short attention span and getting bored of Voli, part of it is him getting popular and me being petty about it. I have a couple that I play back and forth, but I had two random questions
1- Is Fizz a decent jungler anymore? I remember when he was released, they intended him to be a viable jungler, and you'd see it from time to time. Now, with decent AP builds out of the jungle and being a more single target oriented jungler not being that big of an issue, I thought he'd be worth a spin. I like characters that I can play in multiple roles, so I could learn him and take him to lane if need be.
2- Why can Renekton not jungle? I mean, I know in S2 he was slow as hell, but with the health redistribution, Cull the Meek + Slice/Dice should be more than enough for clearing, SotEL and SotAG are both good builds for him depending on your build path (disregarding the mana regen, of course), he has sustain, he has a dash and stun for ganks, he can build tanky and do well just as a jungler should. Is there some giant flaw that I'm missing? Who is in your current lineup jungle-wise? I've mostly been playing Skarner and Voli for the past few weeks in jungle, with a few one-offs. Ones that I've played enough to feel competent with: Skarner, Voli, Naut, Amumu (generally banned in Silver), Elise (kind of bores me tho), Darius (super fun), Warwick, Hec, Riven, Nunu (I always get bitched at for picking him tho). Ones that I have but don't play/haven't played enough: Xin, Vi, Rengar (I think he sucks as a jungler now), Kha, Cho, Rammus (fun but haven't had a chance to play him a lot), Jax, Jayce, Kayle, GP, Diana, Mundo, Akali, Lee (fuck Lee), Olaf (axes hard meng). Heh, sorry for late response, Fringe OP. Uh, try J4? I've been having a ball and stomping everything with him. Satisfying as hell to play. Always 'Macia, never not 'Macia.
A query- what was the original "Always X, never not X"?
Also, I love J4 but Flash messes up his ult so bad. Then you're just stuck in your own ult, cc'ing yourself. The ult should silence everyone caught inside it.
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A bit late on the state of the forum discussion, but I actually like where it is right now. Would I like opening TL and seeing a huge writeup of the previous week of NA LCS on the front page? Sure, but at the same time, given the usual reaction of the "rest of the site" regarding anything league related, Im not so sure its would be worth creating the moderating nightmare.
In a way, the sub forum reminds me a lot of this site before SC2 came out, which I lurked a lot on but never actually registered. It has that smaller community feel where I recognize a lot of the posters in general, we have high level/pro level players posting regularly to discuss strategy.
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On February 20 2013 07:01 Crownlol wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2013 06:56 Gahlo wrote:On February 20 2013 04:15 Requizen wrote:On February 20 2013 04:08 Gahlo wrote:On February 20 2013 04:04 Requizen wrote:
K I need a new jungler. Part of it is me having a short attention span and getting bored of Voli, part of it is him getting popular and me being petty about it. I have a couple that I play back and forth, but I had two random questions
1- Is Fizz a decent jungler anymore? I remember when he was released, they intended him to be a viable jungler, and you'd see it from time to time. Now, with decent AP builds out of the jungle and being a more single target oriented jungler not being that big of an issue, I thought he'd be worth a spin. I like characters that I can play in multiple roles, so I could learn him and take him to lane if need be.
2- Why can Renekton not jungle? I mean, I know in S2 he was slow as hell, but with the health redistribution, Cull the Meek + Slice/Dice should be more than enough for clearing, SotEL and SotAG are both good builds for him depending on your build path (disregarding the mana regen, of course), he has sustain, he has a dash and stun for ganks, he can build tanky and do well just as a jungler should. Is there some giant flaw that I'm missing? Who is in your current lineup jungle-wise? I've mostly been playing Skarner and Voli for the past few weeks in jungle, with a few one-offs. Ones that I've played enough to feel competent with: Skarner, Voli, Naut, Amumu (generally banned in Silver), Elise (kind of bores me tho), Darius (super fun), Warwick, Hec, Riven, Nunu (I always get bitched at for picking him tho). Ones that I have but don't play/haven't played enough: Xin, Vi, Rengar (I think he sucks as a jungler now), Kha, Cho, Rammus (fun but haven't had a chance to play him a lot), Jax, Jayce, Kayle, GP, Diana, Mundo, Akali, Lee (fuck Lee), Olaf (axes hard meng). Heh, sorry for late response, Fringe OP. Uh, try J4? I've been having a ball and stomping everything with him. Satisfying as hell to play. Always 'Macia, never not 'Macia. A query- what was the original "Always X, never not X"? Also, I love J4 but Flash messes up his ult so bad. Then you're just stuck in your own ult, cc'ing yourself. The ult should silence everyone caught inside it.
You can reactivate R to destroy your own terrain btw
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On February 20 2013 07:05 thenexusp wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2013 07:01 Crownlol wrote:On February 20 2013 06:56 Gahlo wrote:On February 20 2013 04:15 Requizen wrote:On February 20 2013 04:08 Gahlo wrote:On February 20 2013 04:04 Requizen wrote:
K I need a new jungler. Part of it is me having a short attention span and getting bored of Voli, part of it is him getting popular and me being petty about it. I have a couple that I play back and forth, but I had two random questions
1- Is Fizz a decent jungler anymore? I remember when he was released, they intended him to be a viable jungler, and you'd see it from time to time. Now, with decent AP builds out of the jungle and being a more single target oriented jungler not being that big of an issue, I thought he'd be worth a spin. I like characters that I can play in multiple roles, so I could learn him and take him to lane if need be.
2- Why can Renekton not jungle? I mean, I know in S2 he was slow as hell, but with the health redistribution, Cull the Meek + Slice/Dice should be more than enough for clearing, SotEL and SotAG are both good builds for him depending on your build path (disregarding the mana regen, of course), he has sustain, he has a dash and stun for ganks, he can build tanky and do well just as a jungler should. Is there some giant flaw that I'm missing? Who is in your current lineup jungle-wise? I've mostly been playing Skarner and Voli for the past few weeks in jungle, with a few one-offs. Ones that I've played enough to feel competent with: Skarner, Voli, Naut, Amumu (generally banned in Silver), Elise (kind of bores me tho), Darius (super fun), Warwick, Hec, Riven, Nunu (I always get bitched at for picking him tho). Ones that I have but don't play/haven't played enough: Xin, Vi, Rengar (I think he sucks as a jungler now), Kha, Cho, Rammus (fun but haven't had a chance to play him a lot), Jax, Jayce, Kayle, GP, Diana, Mundo, Akali, Lee (fuck Lee), Olaf (axes hard meng). Heh, sorry for late response, Fringe OP. Uh, try J4? I've been having a ball and stomping everything with him. Satisfying as hell to play. Always 'Macia, never not 'Macia. A query- what was the original "Always X, never not X"? Also, I love J4 but Flash messes up his ult so bad. Then you're just stuck in your own ult, cc'ing yourself. The ult should silence everyone caught inside it. You can reactivate R to destroy your own terrain btw
Didn't know that. I don't play J4, but my new player friend (like lvl 25) just started playing him a few weeks ago. Whenever someone flashes out of his ult, he just stands there in frustration, shaking his fist at his wily opponent. I still stand by the silence proposition tho.
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United States23745 Posts
On February 20 2013 06:56 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2013 04:15 Requizen wrote:On February 20 2013 04:08 Gahlo wrote:On February 20 2013 04:04 Requizen wrote:
K I need a new jungler. Part of it is me having a short attention span and getting bored of Voli, part of it is him getting popular and me being petty about it. I have a couple that I play back and forth, but I had two random questions
1- Is Fizz a decent jungler anymore? I remember when he was released, they intended him to be a viable jungler, and you'd see it from time to time. Now, with decent AP builds out of the jungle and being a more single target oriented jungler not being that big of an issue, I thought he'd be worth a spin. I like characters that I can play in multiple roles, so I could learn him and take him to lane if need be.
2- Why can Renekton not jungle? I mean, I know in S2 he was slow as hell, but with the health redistribution, Cull the Meek + Slice/Dice should be more than enough for clearing, SotEL and SotAG are both good builds for him depending on your build path (disregarding the mana regen, of course), he has sustain, he has a dash and stun for ganks, he can build tanky and do well just as a jungler should. Is there some giant flaw that I'm missing? Who is in your current lineup jungle-wise? I've mostly been playing Skarner and Voli for the past few weeks in jungle, with a few one-offs. Ones that I've played enough to feel competent with: Skarner, Voli, Naut, Amumu (generally banned in Silver), Elise (kind of bores me tho), Darius (super fun), Warwick, Hec, Riven, Nunu (I always get bitched at for picking him tho). Ones that I have but don't play/haven't played enough: Xin, Vi, Rengar (I think he sucks as a jungler now), Kha, Cho, Rammus (fun but haven't had a chance to play him a lot), Jax, Jayce, Kayle, GP, Diana, Mundo, Akali, Lee (fuck Lee), Olaf (axes hard meng). Heh, sorry for late response, Fringe OP. Uh, try J4? I've been having a ball and stomping everything with him. Satisfying as hell to play. Always 'Macia, never not 'Macia.
Tower diving by EQ-ing over a wall and ulting the ADC while your W and Locket absorb tower shots and the rest of your team cleans up and walking away with 1/6 health is one of the most satisfying moments I've ever had in LoL
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On February 20 2013 07:01 Crownlol wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2013 06:56 Gahlo wrote:On February 20 2013 04:15 Requizen wrote:On February 20 2013 04:08 Gahlo wrote:On February 20 2013 04:04 Requizen wrote:
K I need a new jungler. Part of it is me having a short attention span and getting bored of Voli, part of it is him getting popular and me being petty about it. I have a couple that I play back and forth, but I had two random questions
1- Is Fizz a decent jungler anymore? I remember when he was released, they intended him to be a viable jungler, and you'd see it from time to time. Now, with decent AP builds out of the jungle and being a more single target oriented jungler not being that big of an issue, I thought he'd be worth a spin. I like characters that I can play in multiple roles, so I could learn him and take him to lane if need be.
2- Why can Renekton not jungle? I mean, I know in S2 he was slow as hell, but with the health redistribution, Cull the Meek + Slice/Dice should be more than enough for clearing, SotEL and SotAG are both good builds for him depending on your build path (disregarding the mana regen, of course), he has sustain, he has a dash and stun for ganks, he can build tanky and do well just as a jungler should. Is there some giant flaw that I'm missing? Who is in your current lineup jungle-wise? I've mostly been playing Skarner and Voli for the past few weeks in jungle, with a few one-offs. Ones that I've played enough to feel competent with: Skarner, Voli, Naut, Amumu (generally banned in Silver), Elise (kind of bores me tho), Darius (super fun), Warwick, Hec, Riven, Nunu (I always get bitched at for picking him tho). Ones that I have but don't play/haven't played enough: Xin, Vi, Rengar (I think he sucks as a jungler now), Kha, Cho, Rammus (fun but haven't had a chance to play him a lot), Jax, Jayce, Kayle, GP, Diana, Mundo, Akali, Lee (fuck Lee), Olaf (axes hard meng). Heh, sorry for late response, Fringe OP. Uh, try J4? I've been having a ball and stomping everything with him. Satisfying as hell to play. Always 'Macia, never not 'Macia. A query- what was the original "Always X, never not X"? Also, I love J4 but Flash messes up his ult so bad. Then you're just stuck in your own ult, cc'ing yourself. The ult should silence everyone caught inside it.
Sometimes when I'm playing Darius, I'll pull enemies outside of an allied J4's pit just to fuck with him. Good times all around.
I've been meaning to pick up Jarvan actually.
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On February 20 2013 07:09 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2013 07:01 Crownlol wrote:On February 20 2013 06:56 Gahlo wrote:On February 20 2013 04:15 Requizen wrote:On February 20 2013 04:08 Gahlo wrote:On February 20 2013 04:04 Requizen wrote:
K I need a new jungler. Part of it is me having a short attention span and getting bored of Voli, part of it is him getting popular and me being petty about it. I have a couple that I play back and forth, but I had two random questions
1- Is Fizz a decent jungler anymore? I remember when he was released, they intended him to be a viable jungler, and you'd see it from time to time. Now, with decent AP builds out of the jungle and being a more single target oriented jungler not being that big of an issue, I thought he'd be worth a spin. I like characters that I can play in multiple roles, so I could learn him and take him to lane if need be.
2- Why can Renekton not jungle? I mean, I know in S2 he was slow as hell, but with the health redistribution, Cull the Meek + Slice/Dice should be more than enough for clearing, SotEL and SotAG are both good builds for him depending on your build path (disregarding the mana regen, of course), he has sustain, he has a dash and stun for ganks, he can build tanky and do well just as a jungler should. Is there some giant flaw that I'm missing? Who is in your current lineup jungle-wise? I've mostly been playing Skarner and Voli for the past few weeks in jungle, with a few one-offs. Ones that I've played enough to feel competent with: Skarner, Voli, Naut, Amumu (generally banned in Silver), Elise (kind of bores me tho), Darius (super fun), Warwick, Hec, Riven, Nunu (I always get bitched at for picking him tho). Ones that I have but don't play/haven't played enough: Xin, Vi, Rengar (I think he sucks as a jungler now), Kha, Cho, Rammus (fun but haven't had a chance to play him a lot), Jax, Jayce, Kayle, GP, Diana, Mundo, Akali, Lee (fuck Lee), Olaf (axes hard meng). Heh, sorry for late response, Fringe OP. Uh, try J4? I've been having a ball and stomping everything with him. Satisfying as hell to play. Always 'Macia, never not 'Macia. A query- what was the original "Always X, never not X"? Also, I love J4 but Flash messes up his ult so bad. Then you're just stuck in your own ult, cc'ing yourself. The ult should silence everyone caught inside it. Sometimes when I'm playing Darius, I'll pull enemies outside of an allied J4's pit just to fuck with him. Good times all around. I've been meaning to pick up Jarvan actually.
I like to play j4, for the dunk! also, one of the few abilities that you can troll your ENTIRE team with. This also explains why I enjoy playing blitzcrank, and anivia. I'm a very evil person. 
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On February 20 2013 07:01 Crownlol wrote:
A query- what was the original "Always X, never not X"?
Pretty sure it was either always push never not push with Morde, or always die never not die, also as (Caller's) Morde.
Caller may not have started it though, he could've taken it from somewhere and brought it to TL, so the original could really be anything.
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United States23745 Posts
On February 20 2013 07:22 red_ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2013 07:01 Crownlol wrote:
A query- what was the original "Always X, never not X"? Pretty sure it was either always push never not push with Morde, or always die never not die, also as (Caller's) Morde.
Currently I just use it in ARAMs all the time for "always dive never not dive"
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Wait, so if he kills someone with ult he can spam it over and over for 12 seconds? Or he can cast it again once in 12 seconds?
Botrk looks super smexy now.
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On February 20 2013 07:27 Mondeezy wrote:Wait, so if he kills someone with ult he can spam it over and over for 12 seconds? Or he can cast it again once in 12 seconds? Botrk looks super smexy now.
The latter. It resets it like before, but only for the next 12 seconds. If you don't use it in that time, it goes on a regular CD.
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On February 20 2013 07:27 Mondeezy wrote:Wait, so if he kills someone with ult he can spam it over and over for 12 seconds? Or he can cast it again once in 12 seconds?
Neither, each time you kill with it you get an additional 12 seconds to cast it again. So as long as you keep getting successive kills within 12 seconds of each other, you can keep chaining it.
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I believe the original "was always kill, never die" championed by Caller's morde.
Not sure when it began to become mirrored.
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United States47024 Posts
It got mirrored with "always push never not push"/"always farm never not farm" because, well, wtf is the opposite of "push" or "farm" in this context?
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So... from what I got "Diff the Ender"'s theorycrafting on RoG leaves a fuckton to be desired. Now if somebody had some time on his hands (or some love for maths) I wouldn't be against a proof-read of the proof-read I did of his Liandry article.
As in I got asked my opinion on it on another forum and went all "But TL didn't tell me yet what to think of it  " then wasted 80 minutes doing maths and copypasting numbers on a post.
I'll start with his conclusion:
Very rarely will you land a perfect burst where Liandry's only procs 3 seconds and not 5 or 6 seconds. This favours Liandry's even more. If you're wondering what two extra seconds of Liandry's tick would do (at 2% per tick) -- it would turn the "Lux not slowed" graph into what looks like the "Lux 4% per tick graph".
Liandry's deals anywhere from around 25% to 200% more damage per spell depending on which spell and which enemy. Even more if it's a DoT spell like Malzahar's Malefic Visions.
If your champion has any sort of damage over time ability or a reliable movement inhibiting CC (slow/stun/suppress/snare etc), always build a Liandry's over a Void Staff when presented with the choice (obviously both is better).
He obviously has no idea that Liandry's ticks once every half-second for 1%, starting 0.5s after the spell damage, and is reset every time spell damage is applied, which results in most DoTs "eating" ticks until the last of their own.
It also means if you cast a spell a second or less after the previous one, you'll only get 1 tick at most out of it (the 0.5s one), which destroys most of his arguments regarding "It doesn't matter that you burst harder because you don't click fast enough so you have extra ticks".
Now if you look at the breakeven points then look back at your full burst, most of the time on the left half of the graph, you will actually end up killing the enemy.
Another one of his "arguments": when Void Staff is better you 100-0 the enemy anyway so all those cases don't count.
Except he says absolutely nothing about the inane cases that work for his opinion, like the 3000 HP 40 MR that obviously works better for Liandry's. It almost sounds like he biases his article on purpose, which would greatly annoy me for a guy claiming he gets theorycraft requests from pro players.
Let's look at an example - if you land a Lux E, that's the AoE glowy thing that slows and you can detonate after, on a target with 50 MR and 1500 HP currently, you will deal roughly 25% more damage with a Liandry's than a Void Staff. I repeat - 25% more damage. And if they get slowed by someone else for the 3 seconds Liandry's ticks, then that becomes 50% more damage.
Here's where I need proof-reading: I did some maths myself, based on his 22.8 flat, 8% MPen vs 1500 HP + 50 MR setup using Lux's E as damage. My results differ from his so much that I need to be sure I'm doing it right, because either way one of us screwed up heavily.
+ Show Spoiler [My maths] +240 + 0.6 AP against 50 MR + 1500 HP. With a Void Staff (70 AP), we get 282 damage reduced to 263.3.
With Liandry's (50 AP), 270 reduced to 219, then Liandry's ticks for 72 damage getting to 291.
1st tick : 1500 - 219 = 1281; 1% = 12.81 reduced to 10.39 -> 1270.
2nd tick : 1270 -> 10.31 -> 1260.
3rd tick : 1260 -> 10.22 -> 1250.
4th tick : 1250 -> 10.14 -> 1240.
5th tick : 1240 -> 10.06 -> 1230
6th tick : 1230 -> 9.98 -> 1220 (1219.86).
-> ~61 more damage.
I then realized Diff probably talked about 1500 HP when Liandry's starts ticking, so I redid the maths and ended with around 72 more damage.
The 61 more damage case gives 280 damage total, meaning ~6% more damage for Liandry's, the 72 more damage case results in 291 total damage meaning ~10.5% over Void Staff. I calculated the "slowed for 3 seconds" case assuming 1500 HP before the spell and it went from 61 damage to 120, meaning 339 total damage from Lux's E and a 28.7% damage increase over the Void Staff case.
Not that those numbers are insignificant (6% wouldn't be much but 10.5% is relatively high), but... Diff got 25% when I get at most 10.5%, and 50% when I get what I assume would be ~40-45% at most.
Finally:
I experimented with various values and realised that your current AP actually does not result in a significant difference in damage when comparing Liandry's to Void so I could eliminate that variable and purely use the values of Liandry's AP and Void Staff's AP to calculate the damage differences.
I calculated that with a 0.6 AP ratio you get around 8-9% of your AP more damage (post-mitigation) with a Void Staff compared to Liandry's, and it improves as the ratio raises (Void Staff doing up to 13% of your AP more damage (post-mitigation again) on a 0.9 AP ratio spell against 150 MR targets), that's far from non-significant, dammit. With 300 additional AP (deathcap+masteries+almost any AP item on top of your Liandry's or Void Staff) that's ~30 more damage when your spells do 280-330 damage to your high MR targets, that's like 10 fucking % additional damage and he calls that "not significant" before gloating over Liandry's 10% "increase".
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On February 20 2013 07:36 TheYango wrote:
It got mirrored with "always push never not push"/"always farm never not farm" because, well, wtf is the opposite of "push" or "farm" in this context?
that made me giggle more than it should have.
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On February 20 2013 07:28 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2013 07:27 Mondeezy wrote:Wait, so if he kills someone with ult he can spam it over and over for 12 seconds? Or he can cast it again once in 12 seconds? Botrk looks super smexy now. The latter. It resets it like before, but only for the next 12 seconds. If you don't use it in that time, it goes on a regular CD.
Ah ok, got it. Thanks. He should be less of a pain to deal with in lane now thankfully.
Which champs do you think new Botrk will be best on now? I can definitely see it being viable on ADs now with the bonus aspd/LS. Thinking it'll be strong on auto attack heavy tops such as Zed/Jax/Maybe bruiser nid?
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EPT
