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red_
United States8474 Posts
On February 24 2013 09:20 Sufficiency wrote: For top lane, I agree. But there are very few good manaless mid laners right now beside (imo) Katarina and Lee Sin. There's tons of amazing manaless mids, they just go top because it's a harder lane =p. | ||
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Slaughter
United States20254 Posts
On February 24 2013 08:06 overt wrote: Yeah don't get me wrong he says some really stupid shit. Let's not forget that this is the guy who used to look up to SYDTKO for theorycraft advice. But he's had one bad week of games so this idea of him not being able to adapt to the "meta" seems pretty stupid. Especially since I think most pro AD carries would share similar concerns of Randuin's being stupid right now and it being kind of lame that Riot nerfed almost every AD item in the game. After over a year Doublelift is still that one really dumb kid who's really good at LoL. I dunno. In his recent blog he shit on himself pretty hard for his bad play. He knows he played bad and teams are just focusing him now in lane phase and team fight because outside of Link he is basically all their DMG and especially when he played Kong he had no escapes. | ||
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schmutttt
Australia3856 Posts
On February 24 2013 09:20 Sufficiency wrote: For top lane, I agree. But there are very few good manaless mid laners right now beside (imo) Katarina and Lee Sin. Vlad is probably the best one behind kat, dat late game. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
On February 24 2013 09:14 Phunkapotamus wrote: It hits on Nautilus's E. Not sure how much damage it does. But the thing has everything that Nautilus needs. I couldn't figure out if it worked on his W shield passive. Probably not. It doesn't have tank stats to go with his shield, and it has AD that Naut values a lot less than AS. Bleh. :/ | ||
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
On February 24 2013 09:42 schmutttt wrote: Vlad is probably the best one behind kat, dat late game. I am extremely biased on this but I will try anyway - I think Vladimir is a garbage champion. Very weak early game, very weak late game, OKish mid game. He also has a lot of problem playing mid because his roam is pretty meh. | ||
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Kaneh
Canada737 Posts
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onlywonderboy
United States23745 Posts
It came back shortly after but it was too late, they must have surrendered the next time. Not too worried, I doubt I'm getting enough reports for this to earn me a temp ban or anything. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On February 24 2013 09:14 gtrsrs wrote: just to prove a point i was making earlier http://www.solomid.net/livestream.php?s=2923 all solo lanes are manaless champions, and in every game i've watched today (only 2 games, to be fair) every champion that was not manaless (kog, ori, jayce) had to start tear. having mana is a handicap in this game, manaless champs are just better laners regardless of anything I think Riot's original intent with manaless champs was to produce different gameplay. Possibly inspired by the way alternative energy sources have created different gameplay in RPGs (e.g. encounter-based design in CRPGs, non-mana classes in WoW, etc.). But in the end, they didn't produce different gameplay--they produced "better" gameplay. Outside of a few edge cases, manaless champions don't have some sort of drastically different play paradigm than mana champions, they're just not hamstrung by the possibility of running out of mana. Originally this was balanced by manaless abilities being weaker and energy champions having short term energy usage limitations--but this ended up making said champions weak rather than just "different", so those champions just got overtuned when they were remade (Shen, Kat, etc.), and newer manaless/energy champs don't exhibit this design at all (Lee passive making energy management near-irrelevant until he was nerfed, newer manaless champs like Rengar or Riven not having "weak" cost-less skills, etc.). Ultimately I think this problem is a product of Riot trying to apply a design paradigm suitable for single-player/non-competitive games to a competitive multiplayer game. CRPGs don't demand "balance" the way a competitive multiplayer game does because a class being weak doesn't have such a crushing outcome on said class not being played so it's possible to have more variant gameplay, whereas a competitive game is reigned in by the need for heroes to be balanced relative to one another. | ||
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Scip
Czech Republic11293 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
In other genres, you have the room to explore with manaless alternative energy sources, but in LoL you're reigned in by the limitations of the power level of the game. So I don't think manaless-ness adds anything to the gameplay experience. | ||
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BlackPaladin
United States9316 Posts
On February 24 2013 10:06 onlywonderboy wrote: It came back shortly after but it was too late, they must have surrendered the next time. Not too worried, I doubt I'm getting enough reports for this to earn me a temp ban or anything. Similar situations have happened to me so many times, oh god. I even almost always vote "no" in a surrender vote, but then afterwards my internet is killed or dies and then it looks like I rage quit or some shit. x_x I know one of these days I'm going to get banned b/c of it for no real reason. | ||
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Scip
Czech Republic11293 Posts
And yes, it is mostly the kit that creates distinguishing gameplay, but some kits are just more "clean" without mana. Best example here would be Vladimir, a champion whose (incredibly good) sustain and damage are both limited by cooldowns and aggresivity. This concept either requires manalessness or being effectively manaless (almost 0 mana costs). | ||
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onlywonderboy
United States23745 Posts
On February 24 2013 10:16 BlackPaladin wrote: Similar situations have happened to me so many times, oh god. I even almost always vote "no" in a surrender vote, but then afterwards my internet is killed or dies and then it looks like I rage quit or some shit. x_x I know one of these days I'm going to get banned b/c of it for no real reason. Happened a couple times recently, but it was with friends so I'm not worried. Aside, I DC's as the jungler one of those games 2 minutes in and they won 4v5. | ||
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Chrispy
Canada5878 Posts
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
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gtrsrs
United States9109 Posts
On February 24 2013 10:57 Chrispy wrote: Wow just caught the last 10 minutes of the IPL6 qualifier DNG vs C9. Looked intense and grats to DNG, all 3 games were soooooo good, holy shit, watch the VODs of at least game 1 and 3 if you want to see good games. game 2 was kinda stompy in the favor of cloud9 but the other 2 games were so damn close i'm so proud of my team :D | ||
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Simberto
Germany11735 Posts
On February 24 2013 10:58 Sufficiency wrote: Some of the manaless champions are OK imo. Dr Mundo and Rumble are two that comes to mind. I feel it's mostly the energy champions that are awkward, e.g. Shen Akali Lee Sin. I'd rather say that in a lot of case, mana is the weird ressource. It is pretty much completely irrelevant on a lot of newer mana champions, they play like they are cooldown based anyways. On other mana champions, your goal is often to achieve that status, which usually means that mana is relevant for the first 5-10 minutes, and then you buy a mana item and you are cooldown based, too. Pretty often being a mana champion just puts a higher value onto blue buff, or forces you to push your lane and back every few minutes while in the meantime you completely ignore mana. To be honest, i like energy as a ressource a lot more, because it is consistently relevant throughout the game. Very few champions actually make it worthwhile to manage mana instead of ignoring it and noticing that you are about to run oom sufficiently early to produce a situation where you can go back and refill that bar. | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On February 24 2013 08:20 Ryuu314 wrote: TBH i feel like the whole ADCs feeling like they do less damage is more a result of the current meta than actual changes in power curves. AD carries were always relatively weak midgame while being monsters late. With the recent trend of fast tower pushing, there's much less room for AD carries to just farm to that 4~5+ item build where they shred everything. On top of that, the #1 damage output combo of items always has been and still is IE+PD+LW. However, pretty much every single AD carry nowadays is going BT+Shiv+LW, which is mathematically just less damage. As a result, AD carries simply aren't getting that IE until their fourth or fifth item, really late in the game. Add together both those factors and AD carries will obviously feel weaker. The whole farm for x minutes then wreck thing never really happened. Mid game objectives were always contested in season 2. However it is unquestionable that ad items became more expensive and tank items became cheaper Pre-change ie, pd, LW were cheaper, and provided more stats Pre-change warmogs armor was more expensive and had to be stacked. In addition since most tank champions wanted mid game power rather than to stack 100 minions to charge their mogs they chose less efficient armor or mr items. Now those less efficient options largely do not exist partially because every high base physical damage champion can itemize against armor so easily and because there now exist much more raw defense efficient items Ie IE in season 2 if I wanted to get an anti burst first item my only option was warmogs or sunfire. Sunfire had 800 gold of stat inefficiency and warmogs needed 10 minutes+ of farming. Now you can buy locket get health and armor with almost zero gold wasted on worthless stats. You can get randuins(which is now even better than it was) without sitting on the terribly inefficient HoG Any way you slice it the mid and late game power of ADCs was directly reduced by the itemization changes | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
The problem isnt manaless champions. The problem is the entire system is so fucked up right now only a complete overhaul will fix it. | ||
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
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