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On February 03 2013 18:56 TheYango wrote:
My quip is with wei2coolman's statement that "Strong mechanics is actually best indicator of potential imo. You can teach strategy, much harder to teach mechanics."
My personal feeling is the opposite is the case.
Why hasn't Saint improved his terrible mechanics, then? Different people learn different things better.
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On February 03 2013 18:52 Scip wrote:
Yeah, but things like Doublelift positioning in teamfights or his Tumbles and Condemns aren't strategy, they are patterns of actions that were learned and saved in muscle memory, it has nothing to do with thinking during the actual action.
I don't know how you came to the conclusion that you can't teach strategy and the right way of thinking to someone. It doesn't seem at all self-evident nor intuitive, or at least not in the way you make it look. You could say you can't teach someone to play the piano, because the muscle memory and the feel for it comes from playing itself and experience, but such a statement would be absurd to the highest digree. And playing LoL doesn't seem all that different, unless you could maybe point out some important facts I am missing?
^^^^ just because the mechanisms by which muscle memory and thinking improve are different, in NO WAY does it mean or indeed even imply that the latter is impossible, or practically unfeasable.
I would argue the bold part is possibly incredibly false, at least for the examples you made. Recognizing that someone can be tumble+condemned based on their positioning is 'thinking' even if it is a lightning fast reactionary response. The part where you manage to move your mouse to the correct position to tumble so the condemn hits a pixel of a wall nobody else could hit is the muscle memory. You can absolutely teach people to look for opportunities to do that, and tell them to play a lot of Vayne to gain said muscle memory and they will be 'taught' those 'mechanics'(this is becoming a retarded semantics argument, so very popular on this forum).
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On February 03 2013 18:56 TheYango wrote:
My quip is with wei2coolman's statement that "Strong mechanics is actually best indicator of potential imo. You can teach strategy, much harder to teach mechanics."
My personal feeling is the opposite is the case.
wei2coolman's comments are what pretty much everyone I know who's involved in the pro scene feels.
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United States47024 Posts
Guess I'm getting nowhere with this then. *shrug*
Carry on.
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On February 03 2013 18:56 TheYango wrote:
My quip is with wei2coolman's statement that "Strong mechanics is actually best indicator of potential imo. You can teach strategy, much harder to teach mechanics."
My personal feeling is the opposite is the case. If you spend 10,000 hours training your mechanics, your mechanics will get there. You can't do the same for someone's understanding of the game.
Well maybe teach is wrong word. It's easier to direct someone with good mechanics to do what you want, than it is to let a guy just do what he wants~ and just do it mediocrely. The only exception to this is if the person is a playcaller/shotcaller for the entire team, then yes I'd agree more important to have that game knowledge. But if you're just looking for a slot to fill in your roster, and you already got play caller; mechanics is ezier pickup.
On February 03 2013 18:58 OutlaW- wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2013 18:56 TheYango wrote:
My quip is with wei2coolman's statement that "Strong mechanics is actually best indicator of potential imo. You can teach strategy, much harder to teach mechanics."
My personal feeling is the opposite is the case. Why hasn't Saint improved his terrible mechanics, then? Different people learn different things better.
Watching Saint play a game as a laner is the most painful experience in my life. He's sooo fucking bad in lane, it's ridiculous
>.<, jungle rewards bad mechanics (hue hue hue hue).
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On February 03 2013 18:24 Mondeezy wrote:
So, couldn't you potentially win your promotion series easily by duo queuing with a player much lower than your ELO?
For example, one player starts his promo series from plat to diamond. He duos with his bronze division buddy so that their average elo is much lower than the diamond player's ELO, hence lesser skilled opponents.
Just something I was thinking of today that seems pretty dumb and easily exploitable at higher levels.
well, assuming for a moment that duoing that way actually gives you a better chance of winning the best of 5 (which may not be true), just think of the effect on your elo. your league rating is gonna snap to your elo over time. if you're gaining trivial amounts of elo but you secure a promotion, you're just going to be more eligible for demotion and get fewer league points once you're promoted.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
And my quip is with this statement:
On February 03 2013 18:44 TheYango wrote:
Strategy isn't something you just teach either though. At the most basic level, maybe you can teach basic paradigms, but at the pro level, that's simply not good enough. It also comes out of experience and building upon your understanding of the game. You can't just show someone X and Y and suddenly they learn strategy.
that just seems completely untrue, counterintuitive and unfounded.
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On February 03 2013 18:56 MooMooMugi wrote:
Anyone know how people are skipping whole divisions in Diamond? There seems to be a overload of people in Diamond V, III who skip division IV and II straight into I or III. Example: BabyZeus was Div. III a few hours ago but jumped to Div. I after getting promoted, just curious if anyone had any insight on this. Is it because the influx of players in a single Diamond league or what? And can it happen in the lower leagues?
Curious about this as well. It'd be interesting to see if going on a long hot streak can push your hidden ELO up enough that it skips a division.
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On February 03 2013 18:58 OutlaW- wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2013 18:56 TheYango wrote:
My quip is with wei2coolman's statement that "Strong mechanics is actually best indicator of potential imo. You can teach strategy, much harder to teach mechanics."
My personal feeling is the opposite is the case. Why hasn't Saint improved his terrible mechanics, then? Different people learn different things better.
Saint try to get better? Perish the thought! :D
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On February 03 2013 19:07 Mondeezy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2013 18:56 MooMooMugi wrote:
Anyone know how people are skipping whole divisions in Diamond? There seems to be a overload of people in Diamond V, III who skip division IV and II straight into I or III. Example: BabyZeus was Div. III a few hours ago but jumped to Div. I after getting promoted, just curious if anyone had any insight on this. Is it because the influx of players in a single Diamond league or what? And can it happen in the lower leagues? Curious about this as well. It'd be interesting to see if going on a long hot streak can push your hidden ELO up enough that it skips a division.
Yeah I think you could skip leagues in SCII if I recall correctly if you went on a huge winning streak, so I wouldn't be surprised if the same could be done in LoL
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On February 03 2013 19:09 Slaughter wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2013 18:58 OutlaW- wrote:On February 03 2013 18:56 TheYango wrote:
My quip is with wei2coolman's statement that "Strong mechanics is actually best indicator of potential imo. You can teach strategy, much harder to teach mechanics."
My personal feeling is the opposite is the case. Why hasn't Saint improved his terrible mechanics, then? Different people learn different things better. Saint try to get better? Perish the though! :D
saints idea of getting better is playing jungle sona
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On February 03 2013 19:00 Scip wrote:And my quip is with this statement: Show nested quote +On February 03 2013 18:44 TheYango wrote:
Strategy isn't something you just teach either though. At the most basic level, maybe you can teach basic paradigms, but at the pro level, that's simply not good enough. It also comes out of experience and building upon your understanding of the game. You can't just show someone X and Y and suddenly they learn strategy.
that just seems completely untrue, counterintuitive and unfounded.
How? You really think you can just teach someone all of the nuanced strategy in the game(all the back and forth interactions that happen in any given game) just by spouting some commands? Even with a shot caller, people need to be able to make other decisions on their own, and it can't all be done by saying 'DLift go get red.' I'd say a lot of lane interactions fall under strategy rather than mechanics, and DLift fucking SUCKED at them until Chauster held his hand through it so he could be taught through observation and practice(drilling).
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This may be the dumbest argument I have ever seen on this board.
Its definitely up there with "GP5 #24: BUT WHAT ABOUT THE GOLLLLLD" and "Elo Hell 54: The Noobening."
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United States47024 Posts
On February 03 2013 19:00 Scip wrote:And my quip is with this statement: Show nested quote +On February 03 2013 18:44 TheYango wrote:
Strategy isn't something you just teach either though. At the most basic level, maybe you can teach basic paradigms, but at the pro level, that's simply not good enough. It also comes out of experience and building upon your understanding of the game. You can't just show someone X and Y and suddenly they learn strategy.
that just seems completely untrue, counterintuitive and unfounded.
I don't think teaching someone how to evaluate the state of the game, what a team needs to do to win the game, whether you can win a teamfight given a certain game state, etc. are more teach-able than teaching someone how to skirmish/teamfight through proper evaluation of damage, spell ranges, etc. Both require a lot of learning by application. Which was my point.
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On February 03 2013 19:10 Two_DoWn wrote:
This may be the dumbest argument I have ever seen on this board.
Its definitely up there with "GP5 #24: BUT WHAT ABOUT THE GOLLLLLD" and "Elo Hell 54: The Noobening."
It's basically another semantics argument, and we know how popular those are.
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yango trolling. warmogs sucks etc.
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Well if you take a look at BW. A lot of the korean pro's were picked up not because they were good players, but because they had godly mechanics despite being "bad" at the game. You can teach somebody strategy, and program a response in for a certain situation. You can't teach somebody to move the mouse and click precisely every .2 seconds while also keeping track cooldowns and positioning. Unless you're the shot caller on the team, being mechanically proficient will get you to a very high level, and so long as you listen to the shot caller, you'll be able to mask strategic weakness later in the game.
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Baa?21243 Posts
On February 03 2013 19:22 Amui wrote:
Well if you take a look at BW. A lot of the korean pro's were picked up not because they were good players, but because they had godly mechanics despite being "bad" at the game.
This is false a lot of people were picked up because of other things even though they had poor mechanics.
Tournaments were also a big factor, where it doesn't matter how someone wins as long as they do it - poor mechanics with amazing strategy can get the job done - so only in rare occasions is it team coaches scouting talent from the ground up, there was a very developed feed system into the professional scene (Courage is the big one)
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To be placed in bronze V when your max elo was 1640 S2 and you finished 1486 is just shameful.
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United States47024 Posts
Totally unrelated, can we please stop using the term "shot caller" and just use the term "captain"?
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EPT
