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On January 16 2013 05:45 Scip wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 05:28 onlywonderboy wrote:On January 16 2013 05:23 Scip wrote:On January 16 2013 05:16 onlywonderboy wrote:On January 16 2013 05:11 Scip wrote:On January 16 2013 05:07 sylverfyre wrote:On January 16 2013 05:02 zulu_nation8 wrote:On January 16 2013 04:56 sylverfyre wrote:On January 16 2013 04:45 zulu_nation8 wrote:On January 16 2013 04:36 sylverfyre wrote:
[quote]
But you can still look at a pro player's decision making and have a good idea of why they made those decisions, even if you don't have the understanding to know to make that decision beforehand. You do have to be able to pick up on the decisions and extrapolate the reasons quickly and with an acceptable degree of accuracy. During at least lane phase, the only role where decision making actually matters a bit is jungler. The ONLY people who understand a good jungler's thought process are the people on his team. From there on the understanding degrades by how well you know the specific player and how good you are. But you can look at the things the jungler is doing, compare them to other things you've seen pro junglers do in previous games, and figure out what they're planning, because you can see what they're doing. Yes, you can't read their mind, but you can understand that if blue-reliant is starting red instead of blue and getting a smiteless leash, his intention is likely to be smiteless red-> smite blue -> level 3 gank top, because we've seen it before. It's not "how good you are" but rather how much homework you've done watching top level play (or participating in it). I contest that good casters who aren't great players can put forth the effort and become just as good at it. except most decisions aren't as simple as which buff to start. By how good, I essentially mean how much experience someone has of playing in high level games, because the more experience, the more stuff someone has seen, and thus be able to interpret. Decision making is way too complicated to learn by watching. But to cast and analyze you don't need to be able to make the decisions, you just need to be able to interpret the decisions the players are making. You don't even necessarily be able to explain why but you do need to explain what the decision affects in the game. No, I would say you do need to be able to explain the "why" of decisions, why did the player gank here, why did he push, why didn't they do dragon etc. Without understanding the why you can never fully explain the opportunity cost nor can you make accurate predictions, because your ability to connect things together would be paralyzed by the lack of knowledge. I would say the ability to explain "whys" is one of the most core principles of analysis in commentating. Fair enough, I kind of see this side of the argument. I still think they can have more knowledge of the game than your Elo indicates though. I don't have the time to practice the mechanics (and I'm not naturally good at it) but I have a decent knowledge of the game from watching pro games and reading this forum. I don't play ranked, but I have a feeling I would be low Elo compared to the amount of game knowledge I have. You definitely can have more knowledge than your elo indicates, I mean we have examples of that in EUW LP right now (Equilash, previously Broken Watch etc.) But it is painfully difficult to extract that knowledge from different sources than your own experience. About the latter part of your statement, I don't mean to sound patronizing here, but I doubt that what you are saying is actually true. Mostly because of my own experience. Back when I played sc2, read forums 24/7 and watched 5+ hours of streams daily, I thought the exact same thing, because it seemed like the intuitive thing to think. And boy, was I wrong. I only realized that though once I went to play the ladder and got my ass handed to me by players who knew 10 times as much as I did, despite spending less time on the actual game (if you count reading+watching streams). The main reason why I adopted that illusion is because watching streams and reading posts leaves you wholly ignorant of the issues that you don't know about (d'oh) and there is no mechanism that would make you aware. See I don't count reading and watching streams as spending time with the game, which is why I was actually agree I would probably get my ass handed to me, that's part of the reason I don't play ranked. All I meant is I think I would have more game knowledge than the people around me in my probable shitty Elo, that's all. I don't think stream time + reading translates directly into in game skill. The thing is though, game knowledge directly translates to game skill, given sufficient focus on the game. If reading and/or watching doesn't directly translate to game skill, it can not help with game knowledge either. For the record, I don't think that is true, but I think it provides a painfully incomplete knowledge. That is because reading+watching doesn't provide any good practical ways to forsee consequences of different decisions in different environments, which is a quintessential part of game knowledge, alongside ability to explain decisions taken inside the game. That's kind of straying from the caster discussion and more towards the realm of Dunning-Kruger which I think this is related to, but Neo seems to have killed the caster discussion anyway. ^^^^^ anyway MoonBear, dunno if you read it in one of the other threads, but if you ever need and/or could use help with an analysis, feel free to PM me, I am almost always ready for action. :3
I.. completely disagree with the statement that knowledge DIRECTLY translates to skill. Even among top players, there's many players who are extremely knowledgable but not the most amazing players (Dan Dinh comes to mind.)
As for Dunning-Kruger - I don't think that really applies here because I'm maintaining the stance that being a good player and being a good analyst are not entirely matching skillsets.
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On January 16 2013 05:50 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 05:38 zulu_nation8 wrote:
Sorry for being polemical but I miss the days of BW when theorycrafters were actually looked down upon. And baseball was better before sabermetrics were introduced.
please explain your analogy because i see no connection
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
On January 16 2013 05:52 Scip wrote:
^^^^^^^^^^ While I definitely qualify as one of those kids, I can and will cast a lot of games in like 2-3 weeks just to try prove you wrong Roffles, because I kinda agree with bly08 on some of his points.
I don't disagree with him, but as you know I'm a realist, and in reality what he wants is never gonna happen.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
I'll admit that I haven't seen Dan Dinh ever play (as far as I can remember at least), but from people on this forum seem to endlessly complain about his lack of knowledge. He doesn't know how to apply pressure in lane, he doesn't understand bottom lane matchups etc. I can't give satisfying answer to that example, but grand majority of this subforum would seem to disagree with you.
The Dunning-Kruger comment was about onlywonderboy's self-assesment of knowledge, which is exactly what Dunning-Kruger is about.
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On January 16 2013 05:50 Roffles wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 05:38 zulu_nation8 wrote:
Sorry for being polemical but I miss the days of BW when theorycrafters were actually looked down upon. What you're proposing is essentially theorycrafting too. I hate to say it, but until you show me that your high level ranked 5s players can legitimately cast and analyze games at a high level live, then I'm not gonna buy your argument. Not all great players are informative and can do the job that these casters are doing. TSM would be awful casters. They're all great players, but would you have any of them in a casting booth commentating the game? There's more than just flat out pro level analysis. BW casters are all the fat old men who are washed up from early 2000s. I don't see you complaining about them. Where are the professional SC2 casters? Day9 probably blows at the game by now, yet he's one of the best and most informative casters in SC2. I don't see why you need pro players to cast. Fuck, I wouldn't want those 16-17 year old immature solo queue kids casting a game anyways. We all can critically analyze and lambast poor commentary through Skype chats and whatnot, but the fact is that when you're not doing your own commentary live, then your opinion means shit too.
im merely proposing that high ranked 5s players would provide better ANALYSIS of pro games, which I agree, doesn't always translate to better commentary. I'm essentially only proposing that better players understand the game more. I completely agree that there's a whole skillset to commentating like translating observations into works quickly, transitioning, exuding energy, etc.
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For some reason this is the most annoying argument I've ever read.
Can't we just go back to whether or not I should take AD reds or Armour pen and which one's better for early game?
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Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
On January 16 2013 05:58 zulu_nation8 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 05:50 Roffles wrote:On January 16 2013 05:38 zulu_nation8 wrote:
Sorry for being polemical but I miss the days of BW when theorycrafters were actually looked down upon. What you're proposing is essentially theorycrafting too. I hate to say it, but until you show me that your high level ranked 5s players can legitimately cast and analyze games at a high level live, then I'm not gonna buy your argument. Not all great players are informative and can do the job that these casters are doing. TSM would be awful casters. They're all great players, but would you have any of them in a casting booth commentating the game? There's more than just flat out pro level analysis. BW casters are all the fat old men who are washed up from early 2000s. I don't see you complaining about them. Where are the professional SC2 casters? Day9 probably blows at the game by now, yet he's one of the best and most informative casters in SC2. I don't see why you need pro players to cast. Fuck, I wouldn't want those 16-17 year old immature solo queue kids casting a game anyways. We all can critically analyze and lambast poor commentary through Skype chats and whatnot, but the fact is that when you're not doing your own commentary live, then your opinion means shit too. im merely proposing that high ranked 5s players would provide better ANALYSIS of pro games, which I agree, doesn't always translate to better commentary. I'm essentially only proposing that better players understand the game more. I completely agree that there's a whole skillset to commentating like translating observations into works quickly, transitioning, exuding energy, etc.
In which case, a pro-player might be a great choice for post-game analysis, which I'm sure you'll agree.
I think not every proplayer can naturally slant into commentary because there's a lot of other intangibles (such as charisma, fluency, etc.) which matter. Jatt and Kobe however are very personable people which definitely helps, however I can think of other pro players who I think would not do as good of a job.
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On January 16 2013 05:52 Scip wrote:
^^^^^^^^^^ While I definitely qualify as one of those kids, I can and will cast a lot of games in like 2-3 weeks just to try prove you wrong Roffles, because I kinda agree with bly08 on some of his points.
I look forward to this, Scip. Let me know when it's happening and I will pay rapt attention! :D
(Particularly interested in the kind of insight you can bring that I, as a low elo player with little 5s experience and generally bad analysis, would have had no clue about.)
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United States15536 Posts
On January 16 2013 05:59 Chrispy wrote:
For some reason this is the most annoying argument I've ever read.
Can't we just go back to whether or not I should take AD reds or Armour pen and which one's better for early game?
This conversation has been far more interesting and far less run around in circles.
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
On January 16 2013 05:58 zulu_nation8 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 05:50 Roffles wrote:On January 16 2013 05:38 zulu_nation8 wrote:
Sorry for being polemical but I miss the days of BW when theorycrafters were actually looked down upon. What you're proposing is essentially theorycrafting too. I hate to say it, but until you show me that your high level ranked 5s players can legitimately cast and analyze games at a high level live, then I'm not gonna buy your argument. Not all great players are informative and can do the job that these casters are doing. TSM would be awful casters. They're all great players, but would you have any of them in a casting booth commentating the game? There's more than just flat out pro level analysis. BW casters are all the fat old men who are washed up from early 2000s. I don't see you complaining about them. Where are the professional SC2 casters? Day9 probably blows at the game by now, yet he's one of the best and most informative casters in SC2. I don't see why you need pro players to cast. Fuck, I wouldn't want those 16-17 year old immature solo queue kids casting a game anyways. We all can critically analyze and lambast poor commentary through Skype chats and whatnot, but the fact is that when you're not doing your own commentary live, then your opinion means shit too. im merely proposing that high ranked 5s players would provide better ANALYSIS of pro games, which I agree, doesn't always translate to better commentary. I'm essentially only proposing that better players understand the game more. I completely agree that there's a whole skillset to commentating like translating observations into works quickly, transitioning, exuding energy, etc.
Aight, then that's without a doubt. I must have misunderstood your argument through the pages cause I quickly got bored of reading all this fluff. The better player you are, clearly the more you understand about the game. Even a gorilla like Reginald could tell you why he got a kill, and then immediately coat it with a bunch of obscenities and TSM chants. But you'd still understand why he did what he did. Put them into post game analysis instead of people like MonteCristo or RedBaron. Of course I agree.
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Screw all the talk about casters and AD reds, what is thresh's hidden passive??
Thanks so much for all of the bug reports. They have been instrumental in getting Thresh closer to release state. This is the final push, so everyone please report any bugs you find over the coming days.Below are a list of bugs that should be fixed with this deploy:
Q Passive visual buff scales more smoothly;
No game lag on lantern initial cast of the game;
Thresh health bar is closer to his body;
Thresh ult goes on cooldown he dies while casting it;
Skarner and Blitzcrank can no longer press the lantern while hooking;
Thresh now has a different temp icon for Q2 (but not the final icon!);
Thresh can no longer cancel the animation for Q by casting it during an autoattack (not sure this one made it in);
Jax/Lee Sin/Katarina can now Shunpo to Thresh's lantern;
Thresh can now gain up to 999999 souls;
Thresh souls now have team coloration;
Thresh souls now move a bit on spawn to be easier to see;
Thresh now has a hidden passive;
Thresh's death animation now plays more smoothly;
We couldn't have identified and solved a lot of these without your help.
EDIT: nvm, it's on the wiki lol
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United States15536 Posts
On January 16 2013 06:04 thenexusp wrote:
Screw all the talk about casters and AD reds, what is thresh's hidden passive??
Thanks so much for all of the bug reports. They have been instrumental in getting Thresh closer to release state. This is the final push, so everyone please report any bugs you find over the coming days.Below are a list of bugs that should be fixed with this deploy:
Q Passive visual buff scales more smoothly;
No game lag on lantern initial cast of the game;
Thresh health bar is closer to his body;
Thresh ult goes on cooldown he dies while casting it;
Skarner and Blitzcrank can no longer press the lantern while hooking;
Thresh now has a different temp icon for Q2 (but not the final icon!);
Thresh can no longer cancel the animation for Q by casting it during an autoattack (not sure this one made it in);
Jax/Lee Sin/Katarina can now Shunpo to Thresh's lantern;
Thresh can now gain up to 999999 souls;
Thresh souls now have team coloration;
Thresh souls now move a bit on spawn to be easier to see;
Thresh now has a hidden passive;
Thresh's death animation now plays more smoothly;
We couldn't have identified and solved a lot of these without your help.
Ummm... what about THAT?
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On January 16 2013 06:04 thenexusp wrote:Screw all the talk about casters and AD reds, what is thresh's hidden passive?? Show nested quote +Thanks so much for all of the bug reports. They have been instrumental in getting Thresh closer to release state. This is the final push, so everyone please report any bugs you find over the coming days.Below are a list of bugs that should be fixed with this deploy:
Q Passive visual buff scales more smoothly;
No game lag on lantern initial cast of the game;
Thresh health bar is closer to his body;
Thresh ult goes on cooldown he dies while casting it;
Skarner and Blitzcrank can no longer press the lantern while hooking;
Thresh now has a different temp icon for Q2 (but not the final icon!);
Thresh can no longer cancel the animation for Q by casting it during an autoattack (not sure this one made it in);
Jax/Lee Sin/Katarina can now Shunpo to Thresh's lantern;
Thresh can now gain up to 999999 souls;
Thresh souls now have team coloration;
Thresh souls now move a bit on spawn to be easier to see;
Thresh now has a hidden passive;
Thresh's death animation now plays more smoothly;
We couldn't have identified and solved a lot of these without your help. EDIT: nvm, it's on the wiki lol
Something to do with the other Shadow Isles champions. My bet's on his interactions with yorick.
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
On January 16 2013 05:52 Scip wrote:
^^^^^^^^^^ While I definitely qualify as one of those kids, I can and will cast a lot of games in like 2-3 weeks just to try prove you wrong Roffles, because I kinda agree with bly08 on some of his points.
You gosu analysis. You chobo caster. Things just like slow down when you cast and it takes you like an hour in game to explain like one move because you go into such detail that you miss the next kill. It's like listening to a guy just ramble on and on about one thing. Plus you talk slow.
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United States23745 Posts
On January 16 2013 06:05 AsmodeusXI wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 06:04 thenexusp wrote:
Screw all the talk about casters and AD reds, what is thresh's hidden passive??
Thanks so much for all of the bug reports. They have been instrumental in getting Thresh closer to release state. This is the final push, so everyone please report any bugs you find over the coming days.Below are a list of bugs that should be fixed with this deploy:
Q Passive visual buff scales more smoothly;
No game lag on lantern initial cast of the game;
Thresh health bar is closer to his body;
Thresh ult goes on cooldown he dies while casting it;
Skarner and Blitzcrank can no longer press the lantern while hooking;
Thresh now has a different temp icon for Q2 (but not the final icon!);
Thresh can no longer cancel the animation for Q by casting it during an autoattack (not sure this one made it in);
Jax/Lee Sin/Katarina can now Shunpo to Thresh's lantern;
Thresh can now gain up to 999999 souls;
Thresh souls now have team coloration;
Thresh souls now move a bit on spawn to be easier to see;
Thresh now has a hidden passive;
Thresh's death animation now plays more smoothly;
We couldn't have identified and solved a lot of these without your help. Ummm... what about THAT?
Not surprised, someone at Riot commented there was never supposed to be a cap on the number of souls he was allowed to collect.
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On January 16 2013 06:03 Roffles wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 05:58 zulu_nation8 wrote:On January 16 2013 05:50 Roffles wrote:On January 16 2013 05:38 zulu_nation8 wrote:
Sorry for being polemical but I miss the days of BW when theorycrafters were actually looked down upon. What you're proposing is essentially theorycrafting too. I hate to say it, but until you show me that your high level ranked 5s players can legitimately cast and analyze games at a high level live, then I'm not gonna buy your argument. Not all great players are informative and can do the job that these casters are doing. TSM would be awful casters. They're all great players, but would you have any of them in a casting booth commentating the game? There's more than just flat out pro level analysis. BW casters are all the fat old men who are washed up from early 2000s. I don't see you complaining about them. Where are the professional SC2 casters? Day9 probably blows at the game by now, yet he's one of the best and most informative casters in SC2. I don't see why you need pro players to cast. Fuck, I wouldn't want those 16-17 year old immature solo queue kids casting a game anyways. We all can critically analyze and lambast poor commentary through Skype chats and whatnot, but the fact is that when you're not doing your own commentary live, then your opinion means shit too. im merely proposing that high ranked 5s players would provide better ANALYSIS of pro games, which I agree, doesn't always translate to better commentary. I'm essentially only proposing that better players understand the game more. I completely agree that there's a whole skillset to commentating like translating observations into works quickly, transitioning, exuding energy, etc. Aight, then that's without a doubt. I must have misunderstood your argument through the pages cause I quickly got bored of reading all this fluff. The better player you are, clearly the more you understand about the game. Even a gorilla like Reginald could tell you why he got a kill, and then immediately coat it with a bunch of obscenities and TSM chants. But you'd still understand why he did what he did. Put them into post game analysis instead of people like MonteCristo or RedBaron. Of course I agree.
I agree with that as well. Post game analysis being the key point.
What Bly also believes (which I find a particularly hard pill to swallow) is that unless you are or have been a pro player, you will never be able to provide even close to the same level of analysis as a pro player. (Note that I don't expect non-pro analysis to be able to be just as good as pro, but Bly believes that even with practice, the two will be on vastly different levels without hope of improvement.)
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redbaron is actually a pretty respectable player. So is studio to a lesser extent in season 1.
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had a discussion with my friends yesterday
they think janna is trash tier. in the support hierarchy, they put her only above karma and tied her with nami.
i disagreed.
thoughts?
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Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
On January 16 2013 06:08 Sermokala wrote:GG vs LLL?
GG is where guys on M5 ended up after the M5 team disbanded cause the team lost sponsors+CEO got arrested.
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EPT
