[Patch 1.0.0.153: Preseason Balance Update 1] GD - Page 386

On January 11 2013 08:53 TheYango wrote:

The thing is, I don't think it is that dire.

It IS possible for a ranged carry to itemize in such a way that they can duel an assassin that dives them, in a reasonable manner. The inherent superiority of melee champion kits (which I think is a pretty suspect idea to begin with--the only disparity is Riot releasing OP champs) is not so much as to overcome a significant item advantage, which a ranged carry maintains due to being the highest farm priority on a team. A ranged carry with a minor farm advantage can duel an assassin, provided they do not choose to totally neglect their defensive stats. This was proven yesterday in SWL. GodJJ with LW+Thirster+Giant's Belt didn't have any trouble dueling Reapered's Warmog's+Cleaver Kha'zix. In fact, he 1v1ed him to death with basically no help. All it took is having slightly higher farm priority and an investment into defensive stats by the 3rd major item.

The truth about S1 and S2 is that people CHOSE not to itemize in such a self-sufficient way. People chose deliberately to itemize as a glass cannon who is vulnerable to being dived and insta-killed because the quality of peeling was high enough, and the damage dealing/diving ability of an anti-carry was low enough that a ranged carry player could get away with that.

In some ways, this can be likened to carry itemization in DotA. DotA carry itemization DEMANDS self-sufficiency because of the existence of BKB--any diving hero, for a moderate investment, can make himself unpeelable. The onus is on the carry to itemize in a way that makes himself self-sufficient in the face of such threats. We're reaching the same sort of state in LoL (albeit it is a product of several other awkward factors). And it IS possible in LoL for a ranged carry to itemize to be self-sufficient.

Incidentally, when 2009 played LoL casually, he remarked on this as being one of the differences in carry play between the two games. He said something to the effect of "In DotA, if you are Drow, and a Blademail Bloodseeker dives you in a fight, you turn on your BKB and you fight him like a man. But in LoL, if you are in an equivalent situation, you just kite and run." We're simply just reaching another point of similarity where carries have to be able to man-fight anti-carries, and not just run.

On January 11 2013 10:27 cLutZ wrote:
Ahh yes, but your solution, is actually just another indication of the problem: The AD Carry had to build inefficient AD Carry items: BT and LW for that duel.

The point is not that Assassins make AD carry's obsolete, or can always 100-0 people, its that it forces such significant interactions that are unfavorable: It limits the AD Carries the other team can pick, it limits the Mids they can pick, it forces everyone on the other team to build 1 additional tank item.

Like I said, you win in every scenario:
1. They dont build tank, they dont peel: You kill Priority 1/2 targets.
2. They don't build tank, they peel. You have exhausted the other teams CC, rest of your team can clean up, or you get a kill anyways sometimes. Plus if you have BC you spread significant armor shred before you died.
3. They build tank. They have significantly gimped damage. Your AD is much stronger (IE/PD/LW vs. BT/LW/GA etc).

Its like the Eve problem: She nullifies sightstone (the best support item) and even ignoring that costs the enemy team like 50+gold per lane every 3 minutes.

On January 11 2013 09:33 kainzero wrote:

that's what happens when you take the term "carry" and you put it in another game where the meaning completely changes.

i'd say jax/irelia would probably fit into the old definition.


FINALLY HEART SEEKER VAYNE ON SALE

On January 11 2013 10:33 TheYango wrote:

The disparity here is that you're treating "AD carry" as a core role that a team must have and "Assassin" as an optional role. Neither is any more or less required than the other.

So you're treating the fact that a team that has a an AD carry and an Assassin can beat one that has an AD carry but no Assassin as an imbalance, when there is none. Either you consider them both core roles and the AD Carry+Assassin teamcomp is just a better, more well-rounded teamcomp and deserves to win, or you treat neither as core roles, and you have to evaluate the interaction between AD Carry-less comps and these comps to properly judge them.

Yes the presence of strong Assassins limits the options you have in terms of ranged carries. But it opens up options in other spheres which people have discussed in this thread, which would not otherwise be possible because of how strong AD carries were in S1/S2. You're only seeing the reduction in options because you're treating the AD carry as a requirement when it only was a requirement because of how the game played in S1/S2, not because of some inherent rule of the game.

On January 11 2013 10:33 TheYango wrote:

The disparity here is that you're treating "AD carry" as a core role that a team must have and "Assassin" as an optional role. Neither is any more or less required than the other.

So you're treating the fact that a team that has a an AD carry and an Assassin can beat one that has an AD carry but no Assassin as an imbalance, when there is none. Either you consider them both core roles and the AD Carry+Assassin teamcomp is just a better, more well-rounded teamcomp and deserves to win, or you treat neither as core roles, and you have to evaluate the interaction between AD Carry-less comps and these comps to properly judge them.

On January 11 2013 10:43 cLutZ wrote:


The Ad-Carry-less comp loses to the assassin+ADC comp because no 1 on the 4 bruiser team can kill the Udyr/Mundo/Olaf/Taric/Cho/ETC on the other side.

You need a character with multiplicative scaling, Ranged AD Autoattackers are the safest position for that, and its only Fair/Balanced if the mutiplicative scaling comes out of Autoattacks or some other sustained damage, because burst is always better than sustained damage, given similar values.

IDK why you are arguing in favor of lane bullies with midgame-dominant strategies not being irrelevant later on.

On January 11 2013 10:43 cLutZ wrote:


The Ad-Carry-less comp loses to the assassin+ADC comp because no 1 on the 4 bruiser team can kill the Udyr/Mundo/Olaf/Taric/Cho/ETC on the other side.

You need a character with multiplicative scaling, Ranged AD Autoattackers are the safest position for that, and its only Fair/Balanced if the mutiplicative scaling comes out of Autoattacks or some other sustained damage, because burst is always better than sustained damage, given similar values.

IDK why you are arguing in favor of lane bullies with midgame-dominant strategies not being irrelevant later on.

On January 11 2013 10:43 cLutZ wrote:


The Ad-Carry-less comp loses to the assassin+ADC comp because no 1 on the 4 bruiser team can kill the Udyr/Mundo/Olaf/Taric/Cho/ETC on the other side.

You need a character with multiplicative scaling, Ranged AD Autoattackers are the safest position for that, and its only Fair/Balanced if the mutiplicative scaling comes out of Autoattacks or some other sustained damage, because burst is always better than sustained damage, given similar values.

IDK why you are arguing in favor of lane bullies with midgame-dominant strategies not being irrelevant later on.

On January 11 2013 10:54 Seuss wrote:
I feel like we're walking through the history of the LoL meta as a part of this conversation.

On January 11 2013 10:54 Seuss wrote:


You don't need a character with multiplicative scaling to kill bruisers. It's one way to do it, but just as there isn't one way to push a tower there isn't one way to beat a bruiser.

I feel like we're walking through the history of the LoL meta as a part of this conversation.

On January 11 2013 11:06 TheYango wrote:

I don't know how you saw "AD carry-less comp" and somehow derived literally only one team archetype from it.

Guess this is how closed-minded S2 has made people. The only thing you can come up with as far as a teamcomp with no AD is the 4-bruiser comp.


This is kind of funny because I was just mentioning to people yesterday how some of the popular picks resemble the state of the game around WCG 2010, with Amumu/Sona/MF AoE teamfight comps.

Just need people to start picking Galio again.

On January 11 2013 11:10 MoonBear wrote:

From the day we arrive in the League... and blinking, step into the lane. There's more to ward than can ever be seen. More to gank than can ever be ganked! There's far too much to take in here. More OPs than can ever be found. But the server delays, and the smurfs with big plays, keeps great and small making endless throws!

It's the League of Legends! And it moves us all, through rage and hope, through ganks and jukes. Till we find our place on the lane unwinding - In the League, the League of Legends~*

On January 11 2013 11:45 TheKefka wrote:
It's not the same tho because carrys in dota get naturally tanky by just building agility/strength items.

On January 11 2013 11:45 TheKefka wrote:
Also the idea that whatever kills the enemy team fastest is the most effective isn't quite complete bullshit because you are able to peel more effectively than in Dota(where things like bkb,blink dagger,etc exist).So building glass cannon was always optimal for ads in lol,eventually leading up to you getting a GA or w/e as your only defensive item.

On January 11 2013 11:24 Alaric wrote:
If the other team has an assassin, they you can run an assassin too. If the other team has an assassin... you can splitpush or poke comp and refuse to let him get a chance to fight! If the other team has an assassin, you can focus on assassinating him.
You can use super duelists like Jax that can't be assassinated and let him deal with the enemy bruisers. You can run Karhus and melt entire teams.
You can run Trundle just to fuck up people because he replaces any LW or BC you could need when the enemy team only has one guy relying on resistances to bolster his EHP, and send Elise destroy those HP bags.

You're saying "it's bad because AD carries aren't viable". But before that, it was assassins who weren't viable, you said it yourself.
Also passive mids (except Karthus) aren't viable (or at least not popular) at the competitive level because you need pressure and map presence.
Stuff like Poppy? Nasus? Veigar? Too farm reliant! Not enough roaming capabilities! etc. etc.

I don't see a problem with AD not being as good (they're still viable with only 3 damage items really). Diversity, yay!

On January 11 2013 11:33 Two_DoWn wrote:
It isnt unique that roles have to optimize both defensive and offensive stats. ADC and AP carries have always gone for the best mix possible, just enough defense to live.

The thing ATM is that the scale got tipped a bit in favor of going heavier defense to adjust to S3 itemization and penetration. ADC have benefited just as much as assassins have from the changes on the offensive side, they just need to adjust a bit defensively.

This isnt unique to LoL. Even Anti Mage in Dota, perhaps the hardest carry there is, grabs a Heart and a butterfly.

The idea that the most efficient build is whatever kills the enemy team the fastest is complete and utter bullshit. The most efficient build is the one that lets you and your teammates kill every member of the opponent team with you ending the fight on 1 hp.