EPTI feel like I deal about the same amount of sustained damage as an AD carry till he has about 4-5 items, which is a lot. Muramana is ridic.
[Patch 1.0.0.153: Preseason Balance Update 1] GD - Page 287
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Shiv.
3534 Posts
I feel like I deal about the same amount of sustained damage as an AD carry till he has about 4-5 items, which is a lot. Muramana is ridic. | ||
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zer0das
United States8519 Posts
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BlueSpace
Germany2182 Posts
On January 05 2013 09:20 TheYango wrote: He glosses over it because his reasoning for dismissing it is flawed. His entire basis for not believing that interwoven bans add strategic depth is the idea that nonstandard strategies have a harder time dealing with a second ban phase than standard ones, when it's the opposite. If you are drafting a non-standard strategy, it is very possible to draft "defensively" in a way that your first 3 picks do not give away what you are trying to do. In fact, this is fairly standard in DotA, even if you are NOT playing a non-standard strategy. It is unfortunately not possible to draft around counterpicks like this in the current system. If your opponent is last pick (or you are last pick but your first 4 picks reveal your strategy), you effectively have no recourse to prevent the opponent from counter-picking your strategy's weakness unless the strategy allows you to pick it yourself (unlikely, as, like Zileas says, typically non-standard strategies are less flexible and cannot shoehorn picks in this manner). You are essentially forced into accepting the opponent's ability to counterpick you. Whereas with a second banning phase, you could PRE-EMPTIVELY ban those heroes the enemy could counterpick you with, based on the knowledge of the remaining roles you have left to pick. Essentially a rudimentary knowledge of how drafting in DotA and LoL work allows you to draw the totally opposite conclusion from Zileas when it comes to how non-standard strategies and overall strategic depth are affected by interwoven bans. This is not his main point. He is more concerned of allowing people to outpick each other pre-game or "rock paper scissors" as he calls it. In his opinion a second ban phase will not introduce the strategy element at the right point as it will occur in the picks-bans. He wants strategy to mainly matter during gameplay. | ||
Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21244 Posts
On January 05 2013 09:24 Shiv. wrote: So I just did the math, currently, I deal 86000 damage a game with Ahri on average, while on Ryze, I deal about 153k. Not that this is much of a surprise, but I kind of like the fact he actually seems to be dealing TWICE her damage in my games. I feel like I deal about the same amount of sustained damage as an AD carry till he has about 4-5 items, which is a lot. Muramana is ridic. just goes to show that ahri is useless champion huehue~ | ||
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ShaLLoW[baY]
Canada12499 Posts
On January 05 2013 04:35 turamn wrote: IIRC He built a Zephyr and a Liandry's Torment. Don't remember the rest of the items off of the top of my head, though. http://www.mobafire.com/esports/news/najin-sword-fight-mvp-white-at-the-ogn-winter-quarterfinals-178 ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/80S2c.png) This was the third game, can't remember the other one but I think it was mostly the same. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On January 05 2013 09:26 BlueSpace wrote: This is not his main point. He is more concerned of allowing people to outpick each other pre-game or "rock paper scissors" as he calls it. In his opinion a second ban phase will not introduce the strategy element at the right point as it will occur in the picks-bans. He wants strategy to mainly matter during gameplay. Then it is somewhat ironic that drafting in LoL is actually much more revolved around lane matchups and "rock paper scissors" than DotA is, and much less revolved around building stable, well-rounded, and well-thought-out team compositions. Is he perhaps arguing that this is somehow the case in DotA in spite of it's drafting system, and not because of it? He fails to present any argument as to why this would be the case if so. He essentially does a lot of philosophizing about game design that's not grounded in any way in how the two games actually play. | ||
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ShaLLoW[baY]
Canada12499 Posts
On January 05 2013 06:38 zulu_nation8 wrote: from mass gaming solo queue recently, i feel like khazix solo, eve jungle, and to a lesser extent, panth, and to an even lesser extent, ezreal, are the blatant OPs right now in solo queue. bly which runes/masteries would you run on eve jungle? she was played last night in game 3 of kta vs ktb | ||
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Simberto
Germany11723 Posts
To be honest, i don't really play dota, so i don't know how drafting plays out there. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On January 05 2013 09:35 Simberto wrote: He is arguing that Dota-like drafting results in rock-paper-scissor like complete teams, instead of single lanes. Basically, you shouldn't be able to gain a large advantage or disadvantage during drafting alone. Which is a reasonable stance, especially when you have the element of dodging introduced, where someone in the team that lost drafting just dodges. And unless you pick a really, really stupid team that just does not work in itself that does not happen in LoL unless you somehow managed to get counterpicked hard in all lanes. To be honest, i don't really play dota, so i don't know how drafting plays out there. You are talking about public matchmaking and not the competitive game. Dota doesn't confuse the two so there's zero issues there. In the competitive game being outdrafted does happen but the same happens in LoL. That's just the nature of the games. The main difference is dota is a lot less rock-paper-scissors since you are able to remove things that could potentially cause a rock-paper-scissors situation. That's not the whole truth though. It could be because Dota has far more definite powercurves that this problem is avoided to an extent and not just the drafting but I'm not sure myself. Whether you argue for or against his/their reasoning I think it's important not to introduce "solo q" into this. Solo Q is not the competitive game, it merely looks similar. Arguments about changes to how tournament drafting happens should not include any influences to solo q. | ||
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nafta
Bulgaria18893 Posts
On January 05 2013 09:35 Simberto wrote: He is arguing that Dota-like drafting results in rock-paper-scissor like complete teams, instead of single lanes. Basically, you shouldn't be able to gain a large advantage or disadvantage during drafting alone. Which is a reasonable stance, especially when you have the element of dodging introduced, where someone in the team that lost drafting just dodges. And unless you pick a really, really stupid team that just does not work in itself that does not happen in LoL unless you somehow managed to get counterpicked hard in all lanes. To be honest, i don't really play dota, so i don't know how drafting plays out there. If that was the case why not just make this style of drafting only for arranged 5-s/tournies and make dodging punishable with elo loss? | ||
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Simberto
Germany11723 Posts
And dodging was punishable by elo loss, but then they noticed that this also has some weird effects, like people dodging lots of games to stomp noobs. | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On January 05 2013 09:26 BlueSpace wrote: This is not his main point. He is more concerned of allowing people to outpick each other pre-game or "rock paper scissors" as he calls it. In his opinion a second ban phase will not introduce the strategy element at the right point as it will occur in the picks-bans. He wants strategy to mainly matter during gameplay. Can someone explain to me how this makes sense? How does the gameplay have less strategy if you have more strategy in picks and bans? Isn't it the opposite? | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On January 05 2013 09:46 Shikyo wrote: Can someone explain to me how this makes sense? How does the gameplay have less strategy if you have more strategy in picks and bans? Isn't it the opposite? It is the opposite. I assume he's trying to say you get into a situation that no matter what you do you lose. You get in those situations already, that's just the nature of the game. So really confusing | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
http://www.twitch.tv/Requizen | ||
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kainzero
United States5211 Posts
in a game like dota that has characters with wildly varying powercurves and lane assignments, i can understand but in lol? i dunno. | ||
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NEOtheONE
United States2233 Posts
On January 05 2013 10:11 Requizen wrote: I'm gonna restream for a bit with bad 1200 elo commentary http://www.twitch.tv/Requizen Support Requizen watch it. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On January 05 2013 09:35 Simberto wrote: He is arguing that Dota-like drafting results in rock-paper-scissor like complete teams, instead of single lanes. Basically, you shouldn't be able to gain a large advantage or disadvantage during drafting alone. Which is a reasonable stance, especially when you have the element of dodging introduced, where someone in the team that lost drafting just dodges. And unless you pick a really, really stupid team that just does not work in itself that does not happen in LoL unless you somehow managed to get counterpicked hard in all lanes. To be honest, i don't really play dota, so i don't know how drafting plays out there. Ok, let me put this a different way. Zileas is essentially saying that team A should be able to pick it's strategy, and team B should be able to pick its strategy, and the interaction between said strategies should be primarily in-game. It should not be the case that team A is able to pick in such a way that the way team A's strategy interacts with team B's results in a huge disadvantage for team B. Correct? Now let us think, how is it possible for one team's strategy to interact negatively so with another team's strategy? Counterpicking. A team gets a huge advantage this way via the ability to make a pick or combination of picks that can severely inhibit team B's execution. Counterpicking creates the type of rock-paper-scissors gameplay that Zileas is against. But wait! My post on the last page just showed how having a second ban phase allows a team to inhibit the effect of counterpicking! Which means that adding a second ban phase proceeds to do exactly what Zileas wants, which is to avoid rock-paper-scissors gameplay. | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
Kind of like what everyone has been saying for years! | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
"you can't do it, they're all there"-dan regi 100-0's enemy janna in a split second with lb, and escapes "what'd you say bitch?"-regi. on the ban situation; although i'd be intrigued by how ban phases would impact high level banning, i'm not actually sure if I would like the implication of it. counterpicking is all well and dandy, but what you'll end up having is half baked comps, like a poke a comp without its necessary component, it'd complete eat up a lot of comps that requires a pretty specific champ choice. | ||
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-Zoda-
France3578 Posts
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