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On December 06 2012 04:32 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 04:25 zulu_nation8 wrote:
would you have known bin laden was a murderer and terrorist if no one told you? I'm just glad you guys don't decide on real death sentences. except some of us actually played with this guy in solo q. And death penalty is a terrible analogy. Rather, think of it this way. If you end up playing in Riot's Championship series, you're getting salaried iirc. In other words, starting S3, progaming is a legit fucking job. Now I don't know if/where you work, but if I run my mouth off to my boss's customers 9 times, I'd get fucking fired. That's basically what happened here. IWD got fired for being a douche, which happens in the real world all the time. While LoL may just be a game for you and me, for IWD and the other pros, it's not "just a game." It's their job. They need to treat it as such and accept the consequences for not doing so. Riot didn't ruin his life; IWD ruined his own goddam life by ignoring 8 warnings. It's not like he didn't know this would happen ahead of time anyways. If you got warned 8 times at your job for harassment, then you were told by your boss that you'd get fired if you keep this up, then you don't actually change your behavior, would you be surprised you got fired? Also, guys like TOO and Dyrus rage plenty, but they don't actually harass their teammates (usually). They just rage on screen and verbally. There's nothing wrong with that since they're not actually harassing their teammates; they're basically just saying what they're thinking and there's nothing wrong with thinking X player is utter trash or Y player is a goddamn cocksucking fag fucker. There is somethign wrong when you say that to them repeatedly and harass them.
I obviously know that people have played with him in solo queue, but unless someone can step out and say, yes IWD has harassed me constantly, he's a toxic person and I'm glad to see him banned, to wish for someone's progaming career to end especially when no one even knows his in game personality 2 days ago is maybe a bit harsh?
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United States37500 Posts
bly, stop shitting the subforum. No kid.
This has nothing to do with mob mentality.
Edit: I've played with IWD in 3s a bunch of times and he was inflammatory towards my team, constantly spamming "how did you guys get to this elo" in a slightly more profane way.
Edit2: Listening to SotL, will comment here in a moment. Let's just say people are reporting you by the handful, bly. Sometimes you just don't know when to let go.
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On December 06 2012 04:11 IntoTheWow wrote:
your version of "justified" could be different to Riots. Let's play a game called "guess whose version matters here?".
i interpreted this sentence as, riot has the final say so why argue? correct me if anyone sees it differently.
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On December 06 2012 04:37 NeoIllusions wrote:
bly, stop shitting the subforum. No kid.
This has nothing to do with mob mentality.
please enlighten. How this has nothing to do with mob mentality, and in what way i'm shitting up the forum by arguing a stance.
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On December 06 2012 04:37 zulu_nation8 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 04:32 Ryuu314 wrote:On December 06 2012 04:25 zulu_nation8 wrote:
would you have known bin laden was a murderer and terrorist if no one told you? I'm just glad you guys don't decide on real death sentences. except some of us actually played with this guy in solo q. And death penalty is a terrible analogy. Rather, think of it this way. If you end up playing in Riot's Championship series, you're getting salaried iirc. In other words, starting S3, progaming is a legit fucking job. Now I don't know if/where you work, but if I run my mouth off to my boss's customers 9 times, I'd get fucking fired. That's basically what happened here. IWD got fired for being a douche, which happens in the real world all the time. While LoL may just be a game for you and me, for IWD and the other pros, it's not "just a game." It's their job. They need to treat it as such and accept the consequences for not doing so. Riot didn't ruin his life; IWD ruined his own goddam life by ignoring 8 warnings. It's not like he didn't know this would happen ahead of time anyways. If you got warned 8 times at your job for harassment, then you were told by your boss that you'd get fired if you keep this up, then you don't actually change your behavior, would you be surprised you got fired? Also, guys like TOO and Dyrus rage plenty, but they don't actually harass their teammates (usually). They just rage on screen and verbally. There's nothing wrong with that since they're not actually harassing their teammates; they're basically just saying what they're thinking and there's nothing wrong with thinking X player is utter trash or Y player is a goddamn cocksucking fag fucker. There is somethign wrong when you say that to them repeatedly and harass them. I obviously know that people have played with him in solo queue, but unless someone can step out and say, yes IWD has harassed me constantly, he's a toxic person and I'm glad to see him banned, to wish for someone's progaming career to end especially when no one even knows his in game personality 2 days ago is maybe a bit harsh?
....well people clearly do think he's a toxic person and are glad to see him banned. -.-; To say "no one knows his in game personality 2 days ago" is just blatantly false. If IWD did the same thing in any other career, his career would've been ended a LONG time ago. Even now, his career hasn't completely ended.
IWD was never that high elo; he was in the 1800s range for a very long time. My roommate and I have played with him before and honestly, every time my roommate sees him in game on his team he gets super pissed. Not only does IWD harass people, he trolls people and throws games on a somewhat regular basis. He's a shitty guy in solo q. It's not really much of a secret. I guess it's not super common knowledge because, like you said, he doesn't stream so unless you've actually played with him multiple times before you won't really know. But seriously....minimum 8 times in tribunal? C'mon now.
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On December 06 2012 04:28 zulu_nation8 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 04:24 koreasilver wrote:because solo queue is where riot markets progamers Hence why they promote it through... featured streamers? It should have been obvious for months and months that Riot does put some weight in the image of pub games. If they didn't, they wouldn't have put resources into their tribunal system, punish players for their streaming conduct, reward players for their streaming conduct, etc. IWD doesn't even stream, I know he has one but he doesn't use it. So it's better to punish someone who has no fanbase rather than actual ragers who rage on stream because they have fanbases who will provide more of a backlash.
Are you going to actually take any points or are you just going to strawman everything that is contrary to you?
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is awesome32281 Posts
On December 06 2012 04:34 zulu_nation8 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 04:24 IntoTheWow wrote:On December 06 2012 04:18 zulu_nation8 wrote:
yes professional athletes get banned from their sport for something outside of professional sports when they do stuff like commit murder. In football/soccer, when have people ever been globally banned except for doping? Hence my first argument. How am I sprouting BS? I obviously know people have been affected when he got reported, I'm saying no one HERE has been affected yet people are too quick to be as unsympathetic as possible. Because we can relate to the action of being harrassed or insulted in a game. So when a person mugs someone on the street we should be sympathetic because he didn't mug us in particular? Are you trying to be annoying now? Of course you don't get global bans on football, cause they are not necessary. Players have binding contracts that prohibit them from playing for other teams, so while a player is banned from X league is not like he can play in Y league while his banned. so like I said, IWD has become the scapegoat for every solo queuer who has ever gotten harassed or insulted. The difference is he's not the people who have harassed you and you only know him from progaming, His image as a normal, even professional progamer is destroyed because of something that has nothing to do with anyone aside from like the 1k people at his elo who've queued into or with him, I don't even think he's played that many solo queue games last season. But the public outcry is so strong because apparently he's become the guy who just harassed you in game yesterday. I think this is called mob mentality, without concern for the individual.
IWD has not become a scapegoat. People get banned all the time for their soloQ behaviour. Progamers and steamers get banned for trolling in games (Dyrus come to my mind). This is just the first of someone being banned globally and I expect this to happen to other people under the same circumstances who do the same.
Since you discredit our opinion because we haven't been q'd against IWD, I'll paste Snoopeh's thoughts. Snoopeh has played vs IWD many times, more than you and me, and everyone in this conversation combined.
[–]snoopeh 1567 points 21 hours ago (2113|546)
While I feel for the guys over at Dignitas and especially Odee (their Manager) who is a fantastic guy, as well as team owner.
I don't know the extent of IWD's behaviour in or out of game, but I know that Riot would not enforce such punishment light heartedly - therefore I'd assume it's justified.
It's sad to see anyone act in a disrespectful manner, even more so a professional player who's behaviour is reflected onto the entire community. I hope this sets an example to other top players that may think they have some sort of 'superior status,' which makes them immune from punishment.
Obviously professional players are in the eyes of the public way more than most and we can also be easily provoked into acting uncharacteristically. However it does not excuse poor behaviour, especially on a recurring basis - this is a step forward by Riot in professionalising the LoL Pro Scene which they are very passionate about.
So, one of IWD's peers, under the same circumstances (meaning he could be a 'victim' of the same treat) is happy this is being enforced.
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This came to a surprise to a lot of people imo. Especially considering there are people like HSGG, and so on, who actually are a noticeable menace in game, and have a known personality of being a complete dick in game, while IWD is fairly unknown; so when a severe punishment came out, it seemed rather out of the blue for most of us. I don't think anyone condones IWD's behavior, but the punishment should fit the crime. A ban on an account is already a huge punishment, after all it is essentially nullifying all investments put into that account (time and money). To continually ban all future accounts and investment into the game as social ostracism is more punishment than the crime of being a dick player.
snoopeh does not speak for everyone >.>
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On December 06 2012 04:43 koreasilver wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 04:28 zulu_nation8 wrote:On December 06 2012 04:24 koreasilver wrote:because solo queue is where riot markets progamers Hence why they promote it through... featured streamers? It should have been obvious for months and months that Riot does put some weight in the image of pub games. If they didn't, they wouldn't have put resources into their tribunal system, punish players for their streaming conduct, reward players for their streaming conduct, etc. IWD doesn't even stream, I know he has one but he doesn't use it. So it's better to punish someone who has no fanbase rather than actual ragers who rage on stream because they have fanbases who will provide more of a backlash. Are you going to actually take any points or are you just going to strawman everything that is contrary to you?
Is strawman the thing where I back off my original stance that riot doesnt market progamers from solo queue, agree that through streaming, their behavior in solo queue does make up a lot of their public image, but then make another point according to those assumptions.
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How is IWD "fairly unknown".
To continually ban all future accounts and investment into the game as social ostracism is more punishment than the crime of being a dick player.
It's one year. Read please.
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On December 06 2012 04:46 zulu_nation8 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 04:43 koreasilver wrote:On December 06 2012 04:28 zulu_nation8 wrote:On December 06 2012 04:24 koreasilver wrote:because solo queue is where riot markets progamers Hence why they promote it through... featured streamers? It should have been obvious for months and months that Riot does put some weight in the image of pub games. If they didn't, they wouldn't have put resources into their tribunal system, punish players for their streaming conduct, reward players for their streaming conduct, etc. IWD doesn't even stream, I know he has one but he doesn't use it. So it's better to punish someone who has no fanbase rather than actual ragers who rage on stream because they have fanbases who will provide more of a backlash. Are you going to actually take any points or are you just going to strawman everything that is contrary to you? Is strawman the thing where I back off my original stance that riot doesnt market progamers from solo queue, agree that through streaming, their behavior in solo queue does make up a lot of their public image, but then make another point according to those assumptions.
Strawman is the thing where your response has nothing to do with the quoted post. It's like you're purposely being annoying by being a contrarian that grasps at straws.
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Here's another pro player's opinion:
[–]Wickd 1473 points 22 hours ago (1993|521)
I think it's a good thing that riot keeps pro players to higher standards.
I just really hope that he got a warning first.
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On December 06 2012 04:48 koreasilver wrote:How is IWD "fairly unknown". Show nested quote +To continually ban all future accounts and investment into the game as social ostracism is more punishment than the crime of being a dick player. It's one year. Read please.
Fairly unknown in terms of pro-players, everyone knows the personality of the most popular streamers, but IWD was fairly unknown, aside from being jungler of Dig. No one really knew who he was. He's not like Scarra, or WoDx, or DL, or St.V or HSGG, or Chauster, or Froggen, or Snoopeh, etc etc.
You really think he'll have a future in LoL with an entire year of being unable to play the game? He can't even practice during that year. Especially considering the game has only been 3 years out~
So essentially, he's been barred for an entire year.
Fair punishment? nope.
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is awesome32281 Posts
On December 06 2012 04:45 wei2coolman wrote:
snoopeh does not speak for everyone >.>
I never said that, but zulu_nation8 wanted examples of people who played against him.
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On December 06 2012 04:39 zulu_nation8 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 04:37 NeoIllusions wrote:
bly, stop shitting the subforum. No kid.
This has nothing to do with mob mentality. please enlighten. How this has nothing to do with mob mentality, and in what way i'm shitting up the forum by arguing a stance.
Because you are stubbornly arguing that Riot was wrong in banning IWD for no other reason that believing than a “mob” of people demanded that he be banned, yet you provide no evidence of this fact. When asked for details, you shift your argument claiming that the ban was not “ethically justified”, which is the weakest argument available. It is like arguing public policy in law, which is the argument you make when you have no leg to stand on.
Take the post I am responding to. You edited out the part where NeoIllusions clearly states he played with IWD 3 times and all three times he was a jerk for no reason. Riot has stated they warned him 9 times before taking action. All reports from Riot and players that have interacted with IWD support the claim that he is a jerk when he plays a team game. Furthermore, he does not deny these claims in any way.
All evidence shows that you are incorrect and just arguing for the sake of arguing.
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I'm not a League of Legends player, but I follow SC2 and Dota 2 and have been known to tune into the odd LoL stream.
This news honestly scares me. It really seems incredible that Riot/the tribunal have the authority to ban a player from tournament play, particularly due to their behavior in public matchmaking games. Being barred from the competitive scene for a full year seems like a death sentence - if you're not allowed to compete, how can you hope to maintain your skill level? Sure, I guess the player could just focus on scrims and such on a new account, but tournament/LAN experience is hard to compete with.
Furthermore I can't think it likely that Dignitas would keep a player on their books that they literally cannot send to any tournaments, so I would not be surprised to see the player being removed from their roster. This affects the entire Dignitas LoL squad, since they'll have to start working on team chemistry and communication with a new player. The impact of a year-long tournament ban for one player is going to affect the entire team.
On the other hand, I can't argue that since Riot is entrenched in the organization of LoL tournaments and the Tribunal system is itself built into the framework of LoL and the TOS/etc, that Riot isn't within their power and their rights to make this move. It definitely reminds me of KeSPA and other esports associations that are able to lay down the law and dole out punishments. If anything the main difference I can see is that KeSPA has more transparency regarding their decisions - have we seen logs of the player's behavior, or the internal discussion that led to this decision? - as well as the fact that (unless I'm mistaken) the Tribunal is managed by players, not professionals who might be held accountable for any poor calls.
This reminds me of the SC2 caster Orb getting fired from his casting position (with EG I think?) due to flaming on ladder.
Bottom line, I'd be inclined to think that the player will suffer a huge blow to his esports career, and that his team will have to move on in light of his ban. The implications of this on the rest of the pro players probably will be realized pretty soon, as I can't think players will take the risk of receiving a yearly ban - even accusations could seriously damage their ability to practice and compete. I don't like that any organization can wield such an overarching authority.
My 2c.
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Hmmm, I'm pretty sure I read hazmat saying that IWD wasn't as bad as some of the other pro players while in game~.
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A big ban for a man but a small ban in the struggle to teach people who think being an asshole is ok when "it's only on the internet" that they're wrong. Boggles my mind how anyone still defends such a 8 bans into 30% flame increase build order.
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Bly is right. This would NEVER happen to a player like Dyrus, TOO, or Hotshot even though they are just as toxic if not more. IWD did not have a fan base. He's an easy target for Riot to start their new manner intiative or w.e it is they're doing.
Also, lol@people who think Dyrus or Oddone only bm to their viewers on stream. At the very least IWD doesn't ragequit when a game goes wrong. I haven't seen ANY punishment for Dyrus doing this in front of 10k viewers. And there's a difference between banning someone and ending their career zzz.
It all makes me flashback to when TOO played and trolled with Hackedshotgg. Or when TSM colluted to throw a game. Their punishment was nowhere near severe.
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On December 06 2012 04:56 greyconnect wrote:
I'm not a League of Legends player, but I follow SC2 and Dota 2 and have been known to tune into the odd LoL stream.
This news honestly scares me. It really seems incredible that Riot/the tribunal have the authority to ban a player from tournament play, particularly due to their behavior in public matchmaking games. Being barred from the competitive scene for a full year seems like a death sentence - if you're not allowed to compete, how can you hope to maintain your skill level? Sure, I guess the player could just focus on scrims and such on a new account, but tournament/LAN experience is hard to compete with.
Furthermore I can't think it likely that Dignitas would keep a player on their books that they literally cannot send to any tournaments, so I would not be surprised to see the player being removed from their roster. This affects the entire Dignitas LoL squad, since they'll have to start working on team chemistry and communication with a new player. The impact of a year-long tournament ban for one player is going to affect the entire team.
On the other hand, I can't argue that since Riot is entrenched in the organization of LoL tournaments and the Tribunal system is itself built into the framework of LoL and the TOS/etc, that Riot isn't within their power and their rights to make this move. It definitely reminds me of KeSPA and other esports associations that are able to lay down the law and dole out punishments. If anything the main difference I can see is that KeSPA has more transparency regarding their decisions - have we seen logs of the player's behavior, or the internal discussion that led to this decision? - as well as the fact that (unless I'm mistaken) the Tribunal is managed by players, not professionals who might be held accountable for any poor calls.
This reminds me of the SC2 caster Orb getting fired from his casting position (with EG I think?) due to flaming on ladder.
Bottom line, I'd be inclined to think that the player will suffer a huge blow to his esports career, and that his team will have to move on in light of his ban. The implications of this on the rest of the pro players probably will be realized pretty soon, as I can't think players will take the risk of receiving a yearly ban - even accusations could seriously damage their ability to practice and compete. I don't like that any organization can wield such an overarching authority.
My 2c.
Note the 1 year ban is only for The Champions which is a league run by Riot itself. He is free to compete in IPL's MLG's ect.
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EPT
