On December 06 2012 04:58 HazMat wrote: Bly is right. This would NEVER happen to a player like Dyrus, TOO, or Hotshot even though they are just as toxic if not more. IWD did not have a fan base. He's an easy target for Riot to start their new manner intiative or w.e it is they're doing.
Also, lol@people who think Dyrus or Oddone only bm to their viewers on stream. At the very least IWD doesn't ragequit when a game goes wrong. I haven't seen ANY punishment for Dyrus doing this in front of 10k viewers. And there's a difference between banning someone and ending their career zzz.
It all makes me flashback to when TOO played and trolled with Hackedshotgg. Or when TSM colluted to throw a game. Their punishment was nowhere near severe.
Has TOO and Dyrus had there account warned/temp banned 8 times? if not then there is no difference in punishment yet.
On December 06 2012 04:57 wei2coolman wrote: Hmmm, I'm pretty sure I read hazmat saying that IWD wasn't as bad as some of the other pro players while in game~.
Eh, I know he rages. But so do other pros. I don't think it's fair to lose their career over temper though.
That said, if IWD truly did get warnings that he'd be banned from competetive play and he kept on raging then he'a just an idiot.
On December 06 2012 04:18 zulu_nation8 wrote: yes professional athletes get banned from their sport for something outside of professional sports when they do stuff like commit murder. In football/soccer, when have people ever been globally banned except for doping? Hence my first argument. How am I sprouting BS? I obviously know people have been affected when he got reported, I'm saying no one HERE has been affected yet people are too quick to be as unsympathetic as possible.
Because we can relate to the action of being harrassed or insulted in a game.
So when a person mugs someone on the street we should be sympathetic because he didn't mug us in particular? Are you trying to be annoying now?
Of course you don't get global bans on football, cause they are not necessary. Players have binding contracts that prohibit them from playing for other teams, so while a player is banned from X league is not like he can play in Y league while his banned.
so like I said, IWD has become the scapegoat for every solo queuer who has ever gotten harassed or insulted. The difference is he's not the people who have harassed you and you only know him from progaming, His image as a normal, even professional progamer is destroyed because of something that has nothing to do with anyone aside from like the 1k people at his elo who've queued into or with him, I don't even think he's played that many solo queue games last season. But the public outcry is so strong because apparently he's become the guy who just harassed you in game yesterday. I think this is called mob mentality, without concern for the individual.
IWD has not become a scapegoat. People get banned all the time for their soloQ behaviour. Progamers and steamers get banned for trolling in games (Dyrus come to my mind). This is just the first of someone being banned globally and I expect this to happen to other people under the same circumstances who do the same.
Since you discredit our opinion because we haven't been q'd against IWD, I'll paste Snoopeh's thoughts. Snoopeh has played vs IWD many times, more than you and me, and everyone in this conversation combined.
[–]snoopeh 1567 points 21 hours ago (2113|546) While I feel for the guys over at Dignitas and especially Odee (their Manager) who is a fantastic guy, as well as team owner. I don't know the extent of IWD's behaviour in or out of game, but I know that Riot would not enforce such punishment light heartedly - therefore I'd assume it's justified. It's sad to see anyone act in a disrespectful manner, even more so a professional player who's behaviour is reflected onto the entire community. I hope this sets an example to other top players that may think they have some sort of 'superior status,' which makes them immune from punishment. Obviously professional players are in the eyes of the public way more than most and we can also be easily provoked into acting uncharacteristically. However it does not excuse poor behaviour, especially on a recurring basis - this is a step forward by Riot in professionalising the LoL Pro Scene which they are very passionate about.
So, one of IWD's peers, under the same circumstances (meaning he could be a 'victim' of the same treat) is happy this is being enforced.
Ok I will elaborate further on my point that no one here has played with him in solo queue just in case people misinterpret it as another elitist argument.
I have never played with or against IWD in any queue. I did not know that he was a rager in solo queue until this thread was made. I know what he looks like and a bit of his personality from interviews and press. I'm assuming his exposure to me is the same as with most league players. From his interviews and press, I felt like he's just another standard progamer personality, his play is ok, some good games bad games, his interviews are ok, basic answers, nothing out of the ordinary. He looks kinda lame but that's my opinion.
All of a sudden I read he has been banned from progaming for a year, which practically is a lifetime ban. My first reaction, and the reaction I would hope reasonable people to have, is that wow, I don't wish that upon anyone, he must've done something really wrong. When I saw it was raging in solo queue, I was puzzled. Next I come into this thread reading posts as if he just raped everyone's family. I get that ragers are bad and make the game unfun. But to wish someone's life to be ruined over raging in a video game, especially someone that no one here has personally been the victim of, is a sentiment lacking in conscience and sympathy. If you disagree and think, no it's absolutely fine for me to hate someone I don't know and be glad his life is ruined over something I didn't know they did until 2 days ago, to people I don't know, then there's nothing more to say. If you perhaps agree that the reaction is harsh, then hence my point.
On December 06 2012 04:37 NeoIllusions wrote: bly, stop shitting the subforum. No kid. This has nothing to do with mob mentality.
please enlighten. How this has nothing to do with mob mentality, and in what way i'm shitting up the forum by arguing a stance.
Because you are stubbornly arguing that Riot was wrong in banning IWD for no other reason that believing than a “mob” of people demanded that he be banned, yet you provide no evidence of this fact. When asked for details, you shift your argument claiming that the ban was not “ethically justified”, which is the weakest argument available. It is like arguing public policy in law, which is the argument you make when you have no leg to stand on.
Take the post I am responding to. You edited out the part where NeoIllusions clearly states he played with IWD 3 times and all three times he was a jerk for no reason. Riot has stated they warned him 9 times before taking action. All reports from Riot and players that have interacted with IWD support the claim that he is a jerk when he plays a team game. Furthermore, he does not deny these claims in any way.
All evidence shows that you are incorrect and just arguing for the sake of arguing.
I'm saying the reaction of TL is an example of mob mentality, please link me to the part where I said Riot banned him because of mob mentality lol.
I'm arguing that, the majority reaction shows a disturbingly lack of sympathy, and also that, the decision is unethical because tourney and public ladder are separate. I'm also making the point that he has no solo queue image which then would make the decision irrational from a PR perspective, and that Riot is hypocritical for not doing the same to players who have fanbases. Finally I agree that he's an idiot for not tending to warnings, so you guys can stop bringing that up now.
On December 06 2012 04:58 HazMat wrote: Bly is right. This would NEVER happen to a player like Dyrus, TOO, or Hotshot even though they are just as toxic if not more. IWD did not have a fan base. He's an easy target for Riot to start their new manner intiative or w.e it is they're doing.
Also, lol@people who think Dyrus or Oddone only bm to their viewers on stream. At the very least IWD doesn't ragequit when a game goes wrong. I haven't seen ANY punishment for Dyrus doing this in front of 10k viewers. And there's a difference between banning someone and ending their career zzz.
It all makes me flashback to when TOO played and trolled with Hackedshotgg. Or when TSM colluted to throw a game. Their punishment was nowhere near severe.
I would hope that if Riot is starting a new manner initiative that they wouldn't end it with IWD just to make a point. We can't know this until they make another move, but if HSGG, TOO, or Dyrus came up in the Tribunal as much as IWD seems to have, Riot should ban them too. And I hope they plan to.
I guess my point is that just because there are other terrible members of the scene doesn't mean that IWD shouldn't be banned for his own bad behavior. We can only hope that Riot has their heads on their shoulders enough to keep doing their jobs and following their own principles. If not, then yes, fuck this. But ideally they'll punish everyone who was in the same position as IWD.
EDIT: And it's worth noting that by "the same position," I mean suitably warned. As should be everyone at risk of a permanent ban.
Why would it scare you? It's 100% preventable. Just don't be a bm douche enough to get warned 9 times. Pretty simple no? Shouldn't scare anyone really and I have 0 sympathy for him. This is 100% on him and him alone.
Some people are acting like riot is some scary big brother waiting to hit everyone with the banhammer and ruin their lives. No riot's message is simple - just act like a civilized human being online and you have nothing to worry about.
seems to me that they are having a lot of gamer culture problems, not with pro players per se but with kids playing lol in general. so this is more like a pr move.
the player is pretty dumb though for what he did, but in a professional sport these matters are usually handled by either a player association internally, or through negotiation between the league and the players.
On December 06 2012 04:57 wei2coolman wrote: Hmmm, I'm pretty sure I read hazmat saying that IWD wasn't as bad as some of the other pro players while in game~.
Eh, I know he rages. But so do other pros. I don't think it's fair to lose their career over temper though.
That said, if IWD truly did get warnings that he'd be banned from competetive play and he kept on raging then he'a just an idiot.
Wouldn't put it past them to continue doing what they've been doing. Raging and flaming at people, it's all a habit, and habits are hard to break. All it takes is one unbearable game for 9 people to report you. There's a reason why a lot of tribunal'd players don't show much improvement after each ban.
With regards to whether the punishment was accurate as to it's severity, I believe that one year was a perfectly accurate punishment. There are several factors that should be considered as to IWD's punishment. 1)His permaban for soloq 2)The salary system for S3 3)The fact that Dig was already notified of this potentially happening previously (assuming this information is indeed correct) 4)The number of tournaments that are considered Champ Series tournaments that would actually happen in a year
If he were just given a couple tournament suspension, then this toxic behavior would continue in short order, seeing as he was given time to change already. That would only be a band-aid for the problem, seeing as it is highly unlikely for IWD to change his ways. Combine that with the fact that Riot is effectively employing IWD, and the year long ban makes more sense.
With regards to IWD being targeted as opposed to more popular ragers such as TOO or Dyrus, the bottom line is that Riot is taking a method that renders looking at others irrelevant by looking solely at tribunal. From Riot's perspective, it doesn't matter if the other rage pros do what they do because they aren't being seen as problematic enough by other players to be sent to the tribunal and subsequently warned/banned multiple times. In that case, it's the fault of the people who queue with Dyrus, TOO, etc. (if anyone's fault at all) in that they are not reporting them to the level that would be appropriate to their rage, assuming it's at a similar level to IWD (I don't watch pro streams so I can't comment on how bad they are at all).
On December 06 2012 04:58 HazMat wrote: Bly is right. This would NEVER happen to a player like Dyrus, TOO, or Hotshot even though they are just as toxic if not more. IWD did not have a fan base. He's an easy target for Riot to start their new manner intiative or w.e it is they're doing.
Also, lol@people who think Dyrus or Oddone only bm to their viewers on stream. At the very least IWD doesn't ragequit when a game goes wrong. I haven't seen ANY punishment for Dyrus doing this in front of 10k viewers. And there's a difference between banning someone and ending their career zzz.
It all makes me flashback to when TOO played and trolled with Hackedshotgg. Or when TSM colluted to throw a game. Their punishment was nowhere near severe.
I would hope that if Riot is starting a new manner initiative that they wouldn't end it with IWD just to make a point. We can't know this until they make another move, but if HSGG, TOO, or Dyrus came up in the Tribunal as much as IWD seems to have, Riot should ban them too. And I hope they plan to.
I guess my point is that just because there are other terrible members of the scene doesn't mean that IWD shouldn't be banned for his own bad behavior. We can only hope that Riot has their heads on their shoulders enough to keep doing their jobs and following their own principles. If not, then yes, fuck this. But ideally they'll punish everyone who was in the same position as IWD.
See I on the other hand don't care if players are BM in solo queue. Shit like saying "stfu retard" in a PRO MATCH should be though, and AFAIK Diamond had nothing happen to him from Riot. Or screen peeking at a tourney match.
How does Blizzard handle this? Afaik Idra doesn't get banned for bm'ing in ladder matches.
I just don't think it's fair to put these players to a higher standard than ourselves.
On December 06 2012 04:58 HazMat wrote: Bly is right. This would NEVER happen to a player like Dyrus, TOO, or Hotshot even though they are just as toxic if not more. IWD did not have a fan base. He's an easy target for Riot to start their new manner intiative or w.e it is they're doing.
Also, lol@people who think Dyrus or Oddone only bm to their viewers on stream. At the very least IWD doesn't ragequit when a game goes wrong. I haven't seen ANY punishment for Dyrus doing this in front of 10k viewers. And there's a difference between banning someone and ending their career zzz.
It all makes me flashback to when TOO played and trolled with Hackedshotgg. Or when TSM colluted to throw a game. Their punishment was nowhere near severe.
I would hope that if Riot is starting a new manner initiative that they wouldn't end it with IWD just to make a point. We can't know this until they make another move, but if HSGG, TOO, or Dyrus came up in the Tribunal as much as IWD seems to have, Riot should ban them too. And I hope they plan to.
I guess my point is that just because there are other terrible members of the scene doesn't mean that IWD shouldn't be banned for his own bad behavior. We can only hope that Riot has their heads on their shoulders enough to keep doing their jobs and following their own principles. If not, then yes, fuck this. But ideally they'll punish everyone who was in the same position as IWD.
How does Blizzard handle this? Afaik Idra doesn't get banned for bm'ing in ladder matches.
Idra did get banned for typing that he wanted david kim to be raped by a tire iron in a ladder game.
I'm not a League of Legends player, but I follow SC2 and Dota 2 and have been known to tune into the odd LoL stream.
This news honestly scares me. It really seems incredible that Riot/the tribunal have the authority to ban a player from tournament play, particularly due to their behavior in public matchmaking games. Being barred from the competitive scene for a full year seems like a death sentence - if you're not allowed to compete, how can you hope to maintain your skill level? Sure, I guess the player could just focus on scrims and such on a new account, but tournament/LAN experience is hard to compete with.
Furthermore I can't think it likely that Dignitas would keep a player on their books that they literally cannot send to any tournaments, so I would not be surprised to see the player being removed from their roster. This affects the entire Dignitas LoL squad, since they'll have to start working on team chemistry and communication with a new player. The impact of a year-long tournament ban for one player is going to affect the entire team.
On the other hand, I can't argue that since Riot is entrenched in the organization of LoL tournaments and the Tribunal system is itself built into the framework of LoL and the TOS/etc, that Riot isn't within their power and their rights to make this move. It definitely reminds me of KeSPA and other esports associations that are able to lay down the law and dole out punishments. If anything the main difference I can see is that KeSPA has more transparency regarding their decisions - have we seen logs of the player's behavior, or the internal discussion that led to this decision? - as well as the fact that (unless I'm mistaken) the Tribunal is managed by players, not professionals who might be held accountable for any poor calls.
This reminds me of the SC2 caster Orb getting fired from his casting position (with EG I think?) due to flaming on ladder.
Bottom line, I'd be inclined to think that the player will suffer a huge blow to his esports career, and that his team will have to move on in light of his ban. The implications of this on the rest of the pro players probably will be realized pretty soon, as I can't think players will take the risk of receiving a yearly ban - even accusations could seriously damage their ability to practice and compete. I don't like that any organization can wield such an overarching authority.
My 2c.
This is nothing like what happened with Orb, Orb wasn't warned 9 times. He was fired on the spot for screens dug up from past events that severely hurt EG's image due to plenty of hateful and racist remarks made while raging.
IWD went to Tribunal 9 times AND Riot even contacted dignitas about him. He had so many chances, and always fucked them up.
On December 06 2012 04:58 HazMat wrote: Bly is right. This would NEVER happen to a player like Dyrus, TOO, or Hotshot even though they are just as toxic if not more. IWD did not have a fan base. He's an easy target for Riot to start their new manner intiative or w.e it is they're doing.
Also, lol@people who think Dyrus or Oddone only bm to their viewers on stream. At the very least IWD doesn't ragequit when a game goes wrong. I haven't seen ANY punishment for Dyrus doing this in front of 10k viewers. And there's a difference between banning someone and ending their career zzz.
It all makes me flashback to when TOO played and trolled with Hackedshotgg. Or when TSM colluted to throw a game. Their punishment was nowhere near severe.
I would hope that if Riot is starting a new manner initiative that they wouldn't end it with IWD just to make a point. We can't know this until they make another move, but if HSGG, TOO, or Dyrus came up in the Tribunal as much as IWD seems to have, Riot should ban them too. And I hope they plan to.
I guess my point is that just because there are other terrible members of the scene doesn't mean that IWD shouldn't be banned for his own bad behavior. We can only hope that Riot has their heads on their shoulders enough to keep doing their jobs and following their own principles. If not, then yes, fuck this. But ideally they'll punish everyone who was in the same position as IWD.
See I on the other hand don't care if players are BM in solo queue. Shit like saying "stfu retard" in a PRO MATCH should be though, and AFAIK Diamond had nothing happen to him from Riot. Or screen peeking at a tourney match.
How does Blizzard handle this? Afaik Idra doesn't get banned for bm'ing in ladder matches.
I just don't think it's fair to put these players to a higher standard than ourselves.
Honestly, I've very rarely heard of Blizzard banning anyone for BM, only for hacking.
On December 06 2012 05:04 HazMat wrote: I mean just think of the shitstorm that would ensue if this happned to a more famous player lol. I wouldn't be able to handle the baylife.
If a TSM member got banned, I don't think I could imagine the shitstorm O.o Riot doesn't have the balls to actually ban a player with a big fanbase, so they went for the easy PR ban, on IWD. He's a pro-player, but not big enough to have that big of a backlash. I mean, just imagine if Dyrus got banned for an entire year. lulz,
On December 06 2012 04:57 wei2coolman wrote: Hmmm, I'm pretty sure I read hazmat saying that IWD wasn't as bad as some of the other pro players while in game~.
Eh, I know he rages. But so do other pros. I don't think it's fair to lose their career over temper though.
That said, if IWD truly did get warnings that he'd be banned from competetive play and he kept on raging then he'a just an idiot.
Wouldn't put it past them to continue doing what they've been doing. Raging and flaming at people, it's all a habit, and habits are hard to break. All it takes is one unbearable game for 9 people to report you. There's a reason why a lot of tribunal'd players don't show much improvement after each ban.
50% of the people warned by the Tribunal never appear before it again
On December 06 2012 04:57 wei2coolman wrote: Hmmm, I'm pretty sure I read hazmat saying that IWD wasn't as bad as some of the other pro players while in game~.
Eh, I know he rages. But so do other pros. I don't think it's fair to lose their career over temper though.
That said, if IWD truly did get warnings that he'd be banned from competetive play and he kept on raging then he'a just an idiot.
Wouldn't put it past them to continue doing what they've been doing. Raging and flaming at people, it's all a habit, and habits are hard to break. All it takes is one unbearable game for 9 people to report you. There's a reason why a lot of tribunal'd players don't show much improvement after each ban.
50% of the people warned by the Tribunal never appear before it again
That's still 50% of offenders not reforming. That's not a very impressive stat. That's like the equivalent of how many people go to jail and end up going back to jail.
On December 06 2012 04:18 zulu_nation8 wrote: yes professional athletes get banned from their sport for something outside of professional sports when they do stuff like commit murder. In football/soccer, when have people ever been globally banned except for doping? Hence my first argument. How am I sprouting BS? I obviously know people have been affected when he got reported, I'm saying no one HERE has been affected yet people are too quick to be as unsympathetic as possible.
Because we can relate to the action of being harrassed or insulted in a game.
So when a person mugs someone on the street we should be sympathetic because he didn't mug us in particular? Are you trying to be annoying now?
Of course you don't get global bans on football, cause they are not necessary. Players have binding contracts that prohibit them from playing for other teams, so while a player is banned from X league is not like he can play in Y league while his banned.
so like I said, IWD has become the scapegoat for every solo queuer who has ever gotten harassed or insulted. The difference is he's not the people who have harassed you and you only know him from progaming, His image as a normal, even professional progamer is destroyed because of something that has nothing to do with anyone aside from like the 1k people at his elo who've queued into or with him, I don't even think he's played that many solo queue games last season. But the public outcry is so strong because apparently he's become the guy who just harassed you in game yesterday. I think this is called mob mentality, without concern for the individual.
IWD has not become a scapegoat. People get banned all the time for their soloQ behaviour. Progamers and steamers get banned for trolling in games (Dyrus come to my mind). This is just the first of someone being banned globally and I expect this to happen to other people under the same circumstances who do the same.
Since you discredit our opinion because we haven't been q'd against IWD, I'll paste Snoopeh's thoughts. Snoopeh has played vs IWD many times, more than you and me, and everyone in this conversation combined.
[–]snoopeh 1567 points 21 hours ago (2113|546) While I feel for the guys over at Dignitas and especially Odee (their Manager) who is a fantastic guy, as well as team owner. I don't know the extent of IWD's behaviour in or out of game, but I know that Riot would not enforce such punishment light heartedly - therefore I'd assume it's justified. It's sad to see anyone act in a disrespectful manner, even more so a professional player who's behaviour is reflected onto the entire community. I hope this sets an example to other top players that may think they have some sort of 'superior status,' which makes them immune from punishment. Obviously professional players are in the eyes of the public way more than most and we can also be easily provoked into acting uncharacteristically. However it does not excuse poor behaviour, especially on a recurring basis - this is a step forward by Riot in professionalising the LoL Pro Scene which they are very passionate about.
So, one of IWD's peers, under the same circumstances (meaning he could be a 'victim' of the same treat) is happy this is being enforced.
Ok I will elaborate further on my point that no one here has played with him in solo queue just in case people misinterpret it as another elitist argument.
I have never played with or against IWD in any queue. I did not know that he was a rager in solo queue until this thread was made. I know what he looks like and a bit of his personality from interviews and press. I'm assuming his exposure to me is the same as with most league players. From his interviews and press, I felt like he's just another standard progamer personality, his play is ok, some good games bad games, his interviews are ok, basic answers, nothing out of the ordinary. He looks kinda lame but that's my opinion.
All of a sudden I read he has been banned from progaming for a year, which practically is a lifetime ban. My first reaction, and the reaction I would hope reasonable people to have, is that wow, I don't wish that upon anyone, he must've done something really wrong. When I saw it was raging in solo queue, I was puzzled. Next I come into this thread reading posts as if he just raped everyone's family. I get that ragers are bad and make the game unfun. But to wish someone's life to be ruined over raging in a video game, especially someone that no one here has personally been the victim of, is a sentiment lacking in conscience and sympathy. If you disagree and think, no it's absolutely fine for me to hate someone I don't know and be glad his life is ruined over something I didn't know they did until 2 days ago, to people I don't know, then there's nothing more to say. If you perhaps agree that the reaction is harsh, then hence my point.
I don't know why I'm forced to one of two stances. I don't hate IWD.
But I'm happy Riot is taking reports seriously, even if they have to do this to pro players.
You can see how they are making changes to the tribunal (ribbons and what not) and being more proactive in bans (the whole 0.1% toxic players deal).
Progaming figures are a big deal to them as well, since they are employing and promoting them in S3. If those players are runing the image Riot is trying to promote, I see them in their right to act accordinly. As I said, I just expect this to happen with other players who did the same.
You are also saying "raging over a video game" like it's something silly it should be looked over. The "video game" is his job. Anyone who has ever worked at any formal job knows you have to behave when doing your job, even if it's not said to you.
Besides all that, Dignitas was warned about his behaviour, so you can't really blame Riot after 8 warnings on IWD and a specific warning to dignitas.
Has Dignitas commented on this issue, the warning? IWD?
EPT
