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On December 13 2012 08:59 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2012 08:53 Slusher wrote:
I don't even know what your argument is then, because everyone agrees you might as well upgrade it at some point.
And nobody thinks Guise sucks. Why are you speaking for everyone like this. Everyone agrees that landries is beyond op on teemo because of his mushrooms. You're trying to make the argument that sheen is somehow better on split pushing teemo when splitpushing teemo would be making more use out of landries though his mushroom then anyone. You're the one thats been mathematically proven wrong over and over again and yet continually strives thinking that somehow you are still right. If you want to prove your case to people use examples and math. don't just make these baseless asursions that make you look like an idiot.
you origianlly quoted 101toss when you started the argument
we can = just 2 people.
furthermore in the specific scenario you created, your mushrooms are already doing more than enough damage to prevent anyone from being able to engage you if they hit one, might as well work on something else.
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On December 13 2012 09:00 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2012 08:32 Ketara wrote:On December 13 2012 08:12 101toss wrote:On December 13 2012 07:53 Ketara wrote:
Just because it's often not doing full damage, doesn't mean it's not doing damage. The thing has 70 AP on it, and magic pen, and HP. What item are you comparing it to? Haunting guise. 200hp? Check 15mpen? Check 25ap? Not enough here, but toss on a blasting wand (only 860g) and you've got around the same ap. That means you get 600g to spend on another item that does more damage (plus that bwand actually builds into core items for all casters). People confuse teemo shrooms retarded base damage with liandry's damage and it's making me sad  You are completely ignoring me. Here's some math for you. I'm playing Teemo. I got a Deathcap and a Void Staff. I've also got boots and a sightstone and a haunting guise. I'm having a pretty good day. Lets say I'm a fairly standard AP build and I'm level 18. I've got 333.502 AP with all this stuff. Neat. My mushrooms are doing 866.8016 damage. Also neat. I've got room in my inventory for one more major item. I want something that is going to give me the most damage possible on my mushrooms for the least gold possible. What do I get? I could get a Deathfire Grasp for 3000 gold. That gives 130 AP with deathcap/masteries, which would be another 104 damage on my mushrooms. I could get a Zhonyas Hourglass for 3100 gold. That gives 130 AP with deathcap/masteries, which would be another 104 damage on my mushrooms. Or I could get a Liandry's Lament for 1415 gold. That only gives 58.5 AP with deathcap/masteries, which would be another 46.8 damage on my mushrooms. But it has that passive and slows, so would do 5% current HP damage to the target over 1.5 seconds. How much current HP would the target have to have for 5% of it to be the 45.5 necessary to make that proc do as much damage as a Deathfire Grasp? Only 910 HP. At level 18 how many champions will have more than 910 HP after being hit by the mushroom? Damn near everybody. And it only cost 1415 gold instead of 3000! And I still have an item slot left! In fact, instead of paying 3000 gold for a Deathfire Grasp I could get Liandry's Lament and a Needlessly Large Rod. Then I'm certainly doing more damage than I would be if I'd gotten that Deathfire Grasp! Edit: Oh but wait, Liandry's and Teemo mushrooms don't work well together! Each second you take damage and that reapplies the effect and causes Liandry's to miss a tick of damage! So the last tick of shroom damage will make Liandry's do 5% current health damage, and the first few ticks will make Liandry's do... More than nothing. So instead of taking 5% HP damage from Liandry's, you're taking some amount MORE than 5%. Totally crappy with mushrooms. I think you're right. It is 5%. I think the argument it doesn't work well with Teemo is half from when someone hits a mushroom and then you autoattack them, because then for a long time Liandry's might not be hurting them at all because it keeps getting refreshed by Teemo's poison. I'm actually curious if Liandry gets ticks off when Teemo's poison is active, and if so, how many ticks on average. I can neither discount nor prove the 13% stated above.
teemo's E does not proc liandry's.
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On December 13 2012 08:56 icemanzdoinwork wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2012 08:12 101toss wrote:On December 13 2012 07:53 Ketara wrote:
Just because it's often not doing full damage, doesn't mean it's not doing damage. The thing has 70 AP on it, and magic pen, and HP. What item are you comparing it to? Haunting guise. 200hp? Check 15mpen? Check 25ap? Not enough here, but toss on a blasting wand (only 860g) and you've got around the same ap. That means you get 600g to spend on another item that does more damage (plus that bwand actually builds into core items for all casters). People confuse teemo shrooms retarded base damage with liandry's damage and it's making me sad Runes/Masteries AP = 42.71 @ lvl 11 (assuming flat ap blues/quints). Liandry 70+42.71= 112.71+ 5% mastery= 118.34 118.34*.8= 94.67 400+94.67=494.67 Deathcap 120+42.71=162.71 + (mastery/passive 30%(162.71)=48.81)=211.52 211.52*.8= 169.21 400+169.21= 569.21 Doesn't include passive/pen.
This is easily the best argument for a landries over the deathcap. the math is really close even ignoring the damage that landries does for the shrooms. For Liandry to be worth getting over deathcap the 300 gold difference in damage has to be more then 74.54. There is no math where 200 health 300 gold 15 magpen and whatever possible damage that the passive gives is not worth more then 74.54 damage.
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On December 13 2012 08:56 icemanzdoinwork wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2012 08:12 101toss wrote:On December 13 2012 07:53 Ketara wrote:
Just because it's often not doing full damage, doesn't mean it's not doing damage. The thing has 70 AP on it, and magic pen, and HP. What item are you comparing it to? Haunting guise. 200hp? Check 15mpen? Check 25ap? Not enough here, but toss on a blasting wand (only 860g) and you've got around the same ap. That means you get 600g to spend on another item that does more damage (plus that bwand actually builds into core items for all casters). People confuse teemo shrooms retarded base damage with liandry's damage and it's making me sad Runes/Masteries AP = 42.71 @ lvl 11 (assuming flat ap blues/quints). Liandry 70+42.71= 112.71+ 5% mastery= 118.34 118.34*.8= 94.67 400+94.67=494.67 Deathcap 120+42.71=162.71 + (mastery/passive 30%(162.71)=48.81)=211.52 211.52*.8= 169.21 400+169.21= 569.21 Doesn't include passive/pen.
That's raw damage, there's more to the story.
If you recall I recently posted regarding how Liandry's procs get "munched" by DoTs. Teemo's shrooms are no exception. Between each tick of shroom damage you only get one tick of Liandry's damage, in total 4 ticks during the slow and 2 after it wears off. This adds up to 4 ticks which deal 1.67% of current health in damage and two which deal 0.833%. With that in mind, math:
+ Show Spoiler [Math] +Assuming an opponent with 1500 Health and 50 MR:
Deathcap:
50 * .92 = 46
569.21 / 1.46 = 389.9
Liandry's:
50 * .92 - 15 = 31
494.67 / 1.31 = 377.6
377.6 / 4 = 97.4 (Damage per Tick)
First Liandry's Tick Damage = (1500 - 97.4) * 0.0167 / 1.31 = 17.9
Second Liandry's Tick Damage = (1384.7 - 97.4) * 0.0167 / 1.31 = 16.4
Third Liandry's Tick Damage = (1270.9 - 97.4) * 0.0167 / 1.31 = 15.0
Fourth Liandry's Tick Damage = (1158.5 - 97.4) * 0.0167 / 1.31 = 13.5
Fifth Liandry's Tick Damage = 1047.6 * 0.00833 / 1.31 = 6.7
Sixth Liandry's Tick Damage = 1040.9 * 0.00833 / 1.31 = 6.6
Total Liandry's Damage = 76.1
Total Damage: 453.7
Obviously this doesn't account for doing damage with anything other than shrooms, but as you can see Liandry's actually does significantly more damage than Deathcap when it comes to Teemo's minefields. By the time Liandry's does less damage than Deathcap the target is almost a sure kill either way.
A comprehensive argument for or against Liandry's is going to have to examine how Teemo teamfights, and how different builds relate to his skill usage at different stages of the game. However, at face value it doesn't appear to be a bad choice to rush, and it certainly isn't a bad choice to finish later.
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On December 13 2012 09:03 Slusher wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2012 08:59 Sermokala wrote:On December 13 2012 08:53 Slusher wrote:
I don't even know what your argument is then, because everyone agrees you might as well upgrade it at some point.
And nobody thinks Guise sucks. Why are you speaking for everyone like this. Everyone agrees that landries is beyond op on teemo because of his mushrooms. You're trying to make the argument that sheen is somehow better on split pushing teemo when splitpushing teemo would be making more use out of landries though his mushroom then anyone. You're the one thats been mathematically proven wrong over and over again and yet continually strives thinking that somehow you are still right. If you want to prove your case to people use examples and math. don't just make these baseless asursions that make you look like an idiot. you origianlly quoted 101toss when you started the argument we can = just 2 people. furthermore in the specific scenario you created, your mushrooms are already doing more than enough damage to prevent anyone from being able to engage you if they hit one, might as well work on something else.
I didn't start this argument you're confuseing me with someone else. And your second part doesn't make any sense. Landry will give you 200 extra health and 15 magpen for your other abilities on top of making them so low that you don't even need to worry about working on anything else. Whats going to happen if they continue on attacking into you? sit in a bush wait for cloak and wait for them to walk over you and die instantly.
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On December 13 2012 09:05 Dandel Ion wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2012 09:00 obesechicken13 wrote:On December 13 2012 08:32 Ketara wrote:On December 13 2012 08:12 101toss wrote:On December 13 2012 07:53 Ketara wrote:
Just because it's often not doing full damage, doesn't mean it's not doing damage. The thing has 70 AP on it, and magic pen, and HP. What item are you comparing it to? Haunting guise. 200hp? Check 15mpen? Check 25ap? Not enough here, but toss on a blasting wand (only 860g) and you've got around the same ap. That means you get 600g to spend on another item that does more damage (plus that bwand actually builds into core items for all casters). People confuse teemo shrooms retarded base damage with liandry's damage and it's making me sad You are completely ignoring me. Here's some math for you. I'm playing Teemo. I got a Deathcap and a Void Staff. I've also got boots and a sightstone and a haunting guise. I'm having a pretty good day. Lets say I'm a fairly standard AP build and I'm level 18. I've got 333.502 AP with all this stuff. Neat. My mushrooms are doing 866.8016 damage. Also neat. I've got room in my inventory for one more major item. I want something that is going to give me the most damage possible on my mushrooms for the least gold possible. What do I get? I could get a Deathfire Grasp for 3000 gold. That gives 130 AP with deathcap/masteries, which would be another 104 damage on my mushrooms. I could get a Zhonyas Hourglass for 3100 gold. That gives 130 AP with deathcap/masteries, which would be another 104 damage on my mushrooms. Or I could get a Liandry's Lament for 1415 gold. That only gives 58.5 AP with deathcap/masteries, which would be another 46.8 damage on my mushrooms. But it has that passive and slows, so would do 5% current HP damage to the target over 1.5 seconds. How much current HP would the target have to have for 5% of it to be the 45.5 necessary to make that proc do as much damage as a Deathfire Grasp? Only 910 HP. At level 18 how many champions will have more than 910 HP after being hit by the mushroom? Damn near everybody. And it only cost 1415 gold instead of 3000! And I still have an item slot left! In fact, instead of paying 3000 gold for a Deathfire Grasp I could get Liandry's Lament and a Needlessly Large Rod. Then I'm certainly doing more damage than I would be if I'd gotten that Deathfire Grasp! Edit: Oh but wait, Liandry's and Teemo mushrooms don't work well together! Each second you take damage and that reapplies the effect and causes Liandry's to miss a tick of damage! So the last tick of shroom damage will make Liandry's do 5% current health damage, and the first few ticks will make Liandry's do... More than nothing. So instead of taking 5% HP damage from Liandry's, you're taking some amount MORE than 5%. Totally crappy with mushrooms. I think you're right. It is 5%. I think the argument it doesn't work well with Teemo is half from when someone hits a mushroom and then you autoattack them, because then for a long time Liandry's might not be hurting them at all because it keeps getting refreshed by Teemo's poison. I'm actually curious if Liandry gets ticks off when Teemo's poison is active, and if so, how many ticks on average. I can neither discount nor prove the 13% stated above. teemo's E does not proc liandry's.
Right right. I guess only his Q would refresh it then.
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On December 13 2012 09:14 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2012 09:03 Slusher wrote:On December 13 2012 08:59 Sermokala wrote:On December 13 2012 08:53 Slusher wrote:
I don't even know what your argument is then, because everyone agrees you might as well upgrade it at some point.
And nobody thinks Guise sucks. Why are you speaking for everyone like this. Everyone agrees that landries is beyond op on teemo because of his mushrooms. You're trying to make the argument that sheen is somehow better on split pushing teemo when splitpushing teemo would be making more use out of landries though his mushroom then anyone. You're the one thats been mathematically proven wrong over and over again and yet continually strives thinking that somehow you are still right. If you want to prove your case to people use examples and math. don't just make these baseless asursions that make you look like an idiot. you origianlly quoted 101toss when you started the argument we can = just 2 people. furthermore in the specific scenario you created, your mushrooms are already doing more than enough damage to prevent anyone from being able to engage you if they hit one, might as well work on something else. I didn't start this argument you're confuseing me with someone else. And your second part doesn't make any sense. Landry will give you 200 extra health and 15 magpen for your other abilities on top of making them so low that you don't even need to worry about working on anything else. Whats going to happen if they continue on attacking into you? sit in a bush wait for cloak and wait for them to walk over you and die instantly.
you are right I didn't notice you picked up ketaras original argument, in the scenario he proposed he gave a set of items he already had, and said what would you possibly buy before upgrading to guise (which in this scenario you already have so no you don't get 200 extra health and 15 mpen because you already have it) and I said I'd rather have a lichbane because my shrooms are already doing more than enough damage and lichbane opens up more options for me.
it was and is not a vaccum argument.
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United States23745 Posts
On December 13 2012 09:11 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2012 08:56 icemanzdoinwork wrote:On December 13 2012 08:12 101toss wrote:On December 13 2012 07:53 Ketara wrote:
Just because it's often not doing full damage, doesn't mean it's not doing damage. The thing has 70 AP on it, and magic pen, and HP. What item are you comparing it to? Haunting guise. 200hp? Check 15mpen? Check 25ap? Not enough here, but toss on a blasting wand (only 860g) and you've got around the same ap. That means you get 600g to spend on another item that does more damage (plus that bwand actually builds into core items for all casters). People confuse teemo shrooms retarded base damage with liandry's damage and it's making me sad Runes/Masteries AP = 42.71 @ lvl 11 (assuming flat ap blues/quints). Liandry 70+42.71= 112.71+ 5% mastery= 118.34 118.34*.8= 94.67 400+94.67=494.67 Deathcap 120+42.71=162.71 + (mastery/passive 30%(162.71)=48.81)=211.52 211.52*.8= 169.21 400+169.21= 569.21 Doesn't include passive/pen. That's raw damage, there's more to the story. If you recall I recently posted regarding how Liandry's procs get "munched" by DoTs. Teemo's shrooms are no exception. Between each tick of shroom damage you only get one tick of Liandry's damage, in total 4 ticks during the slow and 2 after it wears off. This adds up to 4 ticks which deal 1.67% of current health in damage and two which deal 0.833%. With that in mind, math: + Show Spoiler [Math] +Assuming an opponent with 1500 Health and 50 MR:
Deathcap:
50 * .92 = 46
569.21 / 1.46 = 389.9
Liandry's:
50 * .92 - 15 = 31
494.67 / 1.31 = 377.6
377.6 / 4 = 97.4 (Damage per Tick)
First Liandry's Tick Damage = (1500 - 97.4) * 0.0167 / 1.31 = 17.9
Second Liandry's Tick Damage = (1384.7 - 97.4) * 0.0167 / 1.31 = 16.4
Third Liandry's Tick Damage = (1270.9 - 97.4) * 0.0167 / 1.31 = 15.0
Fourth Liandry's Tick Damage = (1158.5 - 97.4) * 0.0167 / 1.31 = 13.5
Fifth Liandry's Tick Damage = 1047.6 * 0.00833 / 1.31 = 6.7
Sixth Liandry's Tick Damage = 1040.9 * 0.00833 / 1.31 = 6.6
Total Liandry's Damage = 76.1
Total Damage: 453.7 Obviously this doesn't account for doing damage with anything other than shrooms, but as you can see Liandry's actually does significantly more damage than Deathcap when it comes to Teemo's minefields. By the time Liandry's does less damage than Deathcap the target is almost a sure kill either way. A comprehensive argument for or against Liandry's is going to have to examine how Teemo teamfights, and how different builds relate to his skill usage at different stages of the game. However, at face value it doesn't appear to be a bad choice to rush, and it certainly isn't a bad choice to finish later.
Changing build order based on play style or the way the game is unfolding? Preposterous.
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Just noticed that Runic Bulwark the upgrade of Aegis gives 60 MR lol, pretty OP
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On December 13 2012 09:23 MooMooMugi wrote:
Just noticed that Runic Bulwark the upgrade of Aegis gives 60 MR lol, pretty OP
It gives no additional armor though (not that it matters since black cleaver still exists in it's current form)
If you get the bulwark on a jungler and stack it with an aegis on the support, your ad will have good mr with no items 
When talking about liandry's vs hat, you also have to remember that hat scales off of any ap you would buy in the future, whereas the liandry's passive damage only scales off opponent health and pen. Numbers don't paint the whole picture either (thanks monty); teemo's e and q have little to gain from liandry's and as a result it may be a mistake banking that your opponents won't have decent mr/oracles given how retarded bulwark/aegis stacking is right now (it's also comparatively worse for laning, you're probably only going to shroom the creeps).
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United States23745 Posts
On December 13 2012 09:27 101toss wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2012 09:23 MooMooMugi wrote:
Just noticed that Runic Bulwark the upgrade of Aegis gives 60 MR lol, pretty OP It gives no additional armor though (not that it matters since black cleaver still exists in it's current form) If you get the bulwark on a jungler and stack it with an aegis on the support, your ad will have good mr with no items
Gotta imagine that'll get fixed next patch.
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Is jasari on NA server Nony/Tyler? I remember he used that acc on iccup and I just ran into 'jasari' ingame.
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On December 13 2012 09:11 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2012 08:56 icemanzdoinwork wrote:On December 13 2012 08:12 101toss wrote:On December 13 2012 07:53 Ketara wrote:
Just because it's often not doing full damage, doesn't mean it's not doing damage. The thing has 70 AP on it, and magic pen, and HP. What item are you comparing it to? Haunting guise. 200hp? Check 15mpen? Check 25ap? Not enough here, but toss on a blasting wand (only 860g) and you've got around the same ap. That means you get 600g to spend on another item that does more damage (plus that bwand actually builds into core items for all casters). People confuse teemo shrooms retarded base damage with liandry's damage and it's making me sad Runes/Masteries AP = 42.71 @ lvl 11 (assuming flat ap blues/quints). Liandry 70+42.71= 112.71+ 5% mastery= 118.34 118.34*.8= 94.67 400+94.67=494.67 Deathcap 120+42.71=162.71 + (mastery/passive 30%(162.71)=48.81)=211.52 211.52*.8= 169.21 400+169.21= 569.21 Doesn't include passive/pen. That's raw damage, there's more to the story. If you recall I recently posted regarding how Liandry's procs get "munched" by DoTs. Teemo's shrooms are no exception. Between each tick of shroom damage you only get one tick of Liandry's damage, in total 4 ticks during the slow and 2 after it wears off. This adds up to 4 ticks which deal 1.67% of current health in damage and two which deal 0.833%. With that in mind, math: + Show Spoiler [Math] +Assuming an opponent with 1500 Health and 50 MR:
Deathcap:
50 * .92 = 46
569.21 / 1.46 = 389.9
Liandry's:
50 * .92 - 15 = 31
494.67 / 1.31 = 377.6
377.6 / 4 = 97.4 (Damage per Tick)
First Liandry's Tick Damage = (1500 - 97.4) * 0.0167 / 1.31 = 17.9
Second Liandry's Tick Damage = (1384.7 - 97.4) * 0.0167 / 1.31 = 16.4
Third Liandry's Tick Damage = (1270.9 - 97.4) * 0.0167 / 1.31 = 15.0
Fourth Liandry's Tick Damage = (1158.5 - 97.4) * 0.0167 / 1.31 = 13.5
Fifth Liandry's Tick Damage = 1047.6 * 0.00833 / 1.31 = 6.7
Sixth Liandry's Tick Damage = 1040.9 * 0.00833 / 1.31 = 6.6
Total Liandry's Damage = 76.1
Total Damage: 453.7 Obviously this doesn't account for doing damage with anything other than shrooms, but as you can see Liandry's actually does significantly more damage than Deathcap when it comes to Teemo's minefields. By the time Liandry's does less damage than Deathcap the target is almost a sure kill either way. A comprehensive argument for or against Liandry's is going to have to examine how Teemo teamfights, and how different builds relate to his skill usage at different stages of the game. However, at face value it doesn't appear to be a bad choice to rush, and it certainly isn't a bad choice to finish later.
Monte I have something else for you to look into (people ignored this when I posted it days ago...):
I don't know, from watching a game with Teemo in it right now, it seems as though all of his other spell damage causes a debuff called 'Liandry's Torment - this unit is burning for a percentage of its health each second,' but then sometimes a debuff pops up called 'Burning - This unit is taking damage over time.....'
And sometimes both debuffs are on the person.
Edit: Yup. Watching it now, it seems ONLY the initial magic damage proc on Toxic Shot causes the 'Burning' debuff, while shrooms and Blinding Dart causes the 'Liandry's Torment' debuff along with the Brand-like particle effect.
No idea what this means though.
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On-hit passives like Toxic Shot and Titan's Wrath don't proc Liandry's. Only magic damage from abilities which involve actual casting do (which, confusingly, includes Kayle E because of how it's coded).
Is the "Burning" debuff something you're seeing in addition to Teemo's Toxic Shot damage, and does it only appear if you have Liandry's?
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On December 13 2012 09:40 Seuss wrote:
On-hit passives like Toxic Shot and Titan's Wrath don't proc Liandry's. Only magic damage from abilities which involve actual casting do (which, confusingly, includes Kayle E because of how it's coded).
Is the "Burning" debuff something you're seeing in addition to Teemo's Toxic Shot damage, and does it only appear if you have Liandry's?
Sounds awfully like teemo had red buff (aka proc'd off the autoattack)
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Man watching Chauster completely carry CLG with Sej in this game gives me the goosebumps. She seems legit good. Also think either Nhat is having off game or this highlights some of his weaknesses :<
ps: I need an ADC to buy since I have known. Don't really like Ez or Graves but had fun with Cait/Vayne. Think Cait is safe buy?
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Doublelift "I can't believe everybody always ganks me, I never have fucking wards" as he's pushed past enemy tower with absolutely no friendlies in sight.
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On December 13 2012 09:53 Amui wrote:
Doublelift "I can't believe everybody always ganks me, I never have fucking wards" as he's pushed past enemy tower with absolutely no friendlies in sight.
Its okay, Legendary Chauster Sejuani carry hard
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On December 13 2012 09:42 101toss wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2012 09:40 Seuss wrote:
On-hit passives like Toxic Shot and Titan's Wrath don't proc Liandry's. Only magic damage from abilities which involve actual casting do (which, confusingly, includes Kayle E because of how it's coded).
Is the "Burning" debuff something you're seeing in addition to Teemo's Toxic Shot damage, and does it only appear if you have Liandry's? Sounds awfully like teemo had red buff (aka proc'd off the autoattack)
Could have also been blinding dart, which looks a lot like an auto in the thick of battle.
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On December 13 2012 09:53 Amui wrote:
Doublelift "I can't believe everybody always ganks me, I never have fucking wards" as he's pushed past enemy tower with absolutely no friendlies in sight.
Well that's what he does always. AFK farm lane and relies on vision. Problem is nhat is relying on sightstone only whole game so he hasn't actually had any vision.
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EPT
