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On November 17 2012 04:11 VirgilSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2012 04:04 Numy wrote:
It doesn't do any of that since it gives everyone the same amount. It basically just makes the game reach mid/late etc. quicker. It doesn't penalize roaming less or losing lane less since the relative gold amounts will still be the same. I don't see how it makes camping lanes more effective either since you still losing out on money.
...what? Imagine if I handed you $10 every hour. Now imagine if on top of that, for every box of something you moved, you got an extra $2 and you're competing against someone else, also getting handed $10 every hour, and paid the same rate. Now, Imagine if I started handing you $13 every hour, and $1.50 per box moved. Your opponent now stays closer to you in money earned, regardless of how many more boxes you moved. That's what Riot is doing. Clearly all Obamas fault.
All I draw from that post is socialism.
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United States47024 Posts
Don't look at camping relative to the other jungler, because they don't even interact with the scenario.
Camping as a jungler sacrifices your farm in order to reduce the farm of the enemy laner while they're zoned off creeps while you're camping. In this scenario, you lose less gold for camping, but they also lose less gold for not being able to lasthit while being camped.
You come out comparatively more ahead now if your camping becomes a kill (because if kill bounties stay the same, the relative value of kills compared to farm went up), but in the case where the enemy laner is smart enough to not touch the creeps while you're there, it's more or less the same tradeoff.
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Remember also that banking is gone. Currently if you camp and the enemy jungler doesn't counter-jungle you get a little extra gold and experience back when you go back to the jungle. With banking gone you no longer get this windfall.
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The thing is the junglers do interact or will since the jungler is a big piece of your map control and having a weaker jungler limits your ability to influence the map. I don't see how it isn't a relative thing to the jungler. I don't see how this change lets failed camping be not as bad as before. The only way I see it influencing is if they cannot get an item advantage over you due to this change but I highly doubt that.
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On November 17 2012 04:02 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2012 00:21 Slayer91 wrote:
also lol@yango saying "saintvicious farming jungle works better in solo queue because of the selfish nature of it"
wtf bro? You ever jungled in solo queue in the last year? How many times you think your lanes are all going to feed and flame you if you play a farming style. Try to "carry" with extra 300 gold when every lane loses. Saintvicious has always had a shitty solo queue rating and oddone hit rank one with jungle nunu. Ganking is WAY stronger in solo queue because people ward less and play more agressively. Saintvicious farming style worked way better in arranged play when he could do work in the midgame.
As far as I remember, Saint was on the 1st page of solo queue rankings for the majority of the latter half of S1, while TOO wasn't.
Saint was also performing really well as jungler for CLG with his udyr for example around that time. I remember him carrying some games pretty hard.
Also S1 if you farmed a lot you had time to gank anyway. It's not the same in season 2 you have to constantly farm to keep up with the maximum income of gold and xp while in season one you did a full rotation and had time for at least 1 gank before needing to go back to farm.
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On November 17 2012 04:17 Seuss wrote:
Remember also that banking is gone. Currently if you camp and the enemy jungler doesn't counter-jungle you get a little extra gold and experience back when you go back to the jungle. With banking gone you no longer get this windfall.
Banking was initially included to encourage camping in the first place. I think they just want to encourage farming the jungle rather than just getting it between ganks, which is what this is doing. Camping is more of an chance investment than it is currently.
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On November 17 2012 04:18 Numy wrote:
The thing is the junglers do interact or will since the jungler is a big piece of your map control and having a weaker jungler limits your ability to influence the map. I don't see how it isn't a relative thing to the jungler. I don't see how this change lets failed camping be not as bad as before. The only way I see it influencing is if they cannot get an item advantage over you due to this change but I highly doubt that.
Honestly I give it a week before people have figured out which junglers can clear, gank, and be as terrifying as always, if that. If you're assuming junglers are never going to level 2/3/4 gank, and succeed, you're wrong.
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United States47024 Posts
On November 17 2012 04:18 Numy wrote:
The thing is the junglers do interact or will since the jungler is a big piece of your map control and having a weaker jungler limits your ability to influence the map. I don't see how it isn't a relative thing to the jungler. I don't see how this change lets failed camping be not as bad as before.
Because the enemy jungler doesn't directly gain or lose anything from you camping. YOU get weaker, but it doesn't affect them.
Camping boils down to: I make myself weaker to make an enemy laner weaker. You give up farm to make that laner sacrifice farm. That's it. Anything else is a secondary effect that follows from that in a domino effect fashion, and over-analyzing secondary effects makes the entire scenior much harder to analyze.
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Let's assume at 10 minutes into the game:
You
475 (Starting Gold) + 22x80 (Your CS) + 780 (Passive 13g/10 Seconds@10 Minutes) = 3015g
Your Opponent
475 (Starting Gold) + 22x65 (His CS) + 780 (Passive 13g/10 Seconds@10 Minutes) = 2685g
Difference: 330g
Now, lets change the numbers slightly
You
475 (Starting Gold [May have been changed]) + 20x80 (Your CS) + 900 (Passive 15g/10 Seconds@10 Minutes) = 2975g
Him
475 (Starting Gold [May have been changed]) + 20x65 (His CS) + 900 (Passive 15g/10 Seconds@10 Minutes) = 2675g
Difference? 300g
Keep in mind that these numbers a) Don't factor in that passive gold generation starts at 1:30 not 0:00 and b) half of the numbers are made up or approximations.
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How do you build Xin, both top and in the jungle btw? I clearly need to play more "diving" champs like him (I tend to wait for initiation as Irelia/Jax, and the lack of gap closer on Udyr just makes me way too reliant on how my teammates have fed their opponents) but since he's got so low ratios and he doesn't do enough base damage to warrant a full CDR tank build, I dunno what to build on him to still do damage past level 11.
As for the changes, another thing I noticed is the lack of flat ArPen.
So Riot wants to help "casters", "assassins", "AD mages", who rely on early flat ArPen, and later flat AD+LW, to do their damage. They also say that "chain vest totally counters them". Changes:
- flat ArPen reduced for runes and the brutalizer. Chainvest more expensive and gives less armor, but it reflects the lesser ArPen on brutalizer so only the cost changes anything anyway, and you're weaker early against people not buying armor.
- addition of Black Cleaver. Which requires stacking to be effective, ruling assassins' out of its use. No other ArPen item. Lies on the new itemization options.
- BFS is buffed (easier to buy, access to earlier AD) but BT is nerfed (sustain reduced, increased cost so harder to buy, though easier to maintain high AD).
- Pillager only grants 10% spellvamp for champs relying a lot on AoE (even Talon and Pantheon). Not much ArPen, and not much cdr either. Still builds out of brutalizer.
- LW nerfed. So the stacking of those items is better than before, but your ideal build before did not include bruta, which was an item you'd build when snowballing (you wanted your BFS the earliest possible otherwise), and his therefore more or less as effective as before, and you'll be a bit better with an unoptimal build.
I don't see how AD casters have been helped in the least so far. I'm waiting for a true AD-friggin'-caster item building out of brutalizer, and for other options for flat ArPen (even if they have to be costly so they can't be stacked early on with bruta to avoid balancing around that case).
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United States47024 Posts
On November 17 2012 04:20 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2012 04:18 Numy wrote:
The thing is the junglers do interact or will since the jungler is a big piece of your map control and having a weaker jungler limits your ability to influence the map. I don't see how it isn't a relative thing to the jungler. I don't see how this change lets failed camping be not as bad as before. The only way I see it influencing is if they cannot get an item advantage over you due to this change but I highly doubt that. Honestly I give it a week before people have figured out which junglers can clear, gank, and be as terrifying as always, if that. If you're assuming junglers are never going to level 2/3/4 gank, and succeed, you're wrong.
I honestly don't think it will change anything.
Right now the thing with camping is that there's a fundamental disconnect in what it accomplishes in solo queue vs. what it accomplishes in high level tournament play. In solo queue, you camp, because 90% of enemies are impatient fuckers and even if they know you're there, they'll eventually slip up and let you get a kill and make your camping worthwhile. In high level tournament play, there's never a guarantee that waiting in a brush like that will ever turn a kill, which means the only outcome of camping in that scenario is a farm trade-off between the jungler and that laner.
I'm not sure which of these it's supposed to address, but I don't see it affecting either scenario. In the former case, getting a kill still makes your camping worth it (and arguably more so, because a kill becomes equivalent to more creeps' worth of gold when you decrease the gold value of creeps), and in the latter case it's already not worth it to camp like that.
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On November 17 2012 04:20 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2012 04:18 Numy wrote:
The thing is the junglers do interact or will since the jungler is a big piece of your map control and having a weaker jungler limits your ability to influence the map. I don't see how it isn't a relative thing to the jungler. I don't see how this change lets failed camping be not as bad as before. The only way I see it influencing is if they cannot get an item advantage over you due to this change but I highly doubt that. Honestly I give it a week before people have figured out which junglers can clear, gank, and be as terrifying as always, if that. If you're assuming junglers are never going to level 2/3/4 gank, and succeed, you're wrong.
I assume that I'm not going to get 2/3/4 ganked by every jungler, and now I'll start to be able to figure out which junglers those are at the loading screen. For example, I doubt Shy/Naut/Sej, for example, will be able to gank after/during first clear.
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What do people think of the new jungler items. I could see you maybe getting the elder lizard spirit stone if you got early kills, but straight pickaxe seems really risky. The golem one just seems better because of the stats you're getting help so much more for ganking and presence.
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With all this talk about camping. Does anyone know what they doing to "address the toxic nature of top lane". Is this part of the mastery/item changes?
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United States47024 Posts
On November 17 2012 04:26 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2012 04:20 Seuss wrote:On November 17 2012 04:18 Numy wrote:
The thing is the junglers do interact or will since the jungler is a big piece of your map control and having a weaker jungler limits your ability to influence the map. I don't see how it isn't a relative thing to the jungler. I don't see how this change lets failed camping be not as bad as before. The only way I see it influencing is if they cannot get an item advantage over you due to this change but I highly doubt that. Honestly I give it a week before people have figured out which junglers can clear, gank, and be as terrifying as always, if that. If you're assuming junglers are never going to level 2/3/4 gank, and succeed, you're wrong. I assume that I'm not going to get 2/3/4 ganked by every jungler, and now I'll start to be able to figure out which junglers those are at the loading screen. For example, I doubt Shy/Naut/Sej, for example, will be able to gank after/during first clear.
The only reason that it's "every jungler" right now is because the ones that can't do it aren't played lol. And it will be the same in the new jungle when people stop playing the junglers that are ineffective in the new jungle.
Sure you won't get 2/3/4 ganked by WW in the current jungle, but that's because WW sucks in the current jungle.
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Also noted that Aegis had a MR upgrade in the notes, but no armor upgrade. I wonder if it was intentional.
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On November 17 2012 04:29 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2012 04:26 Requizen wrote:On November 17 2012 04:20 Seuss wrote:On November 17 2012 04:18 Numy wrote:
The thing is the junglers do interact or will since the jungler is a big piece of your map control and having a weaker jungler limits your ability to influence the map. I don't see how it isn't a relative thing to the jungler. I don't see how this change lets failed camping be not as bad as before. The only way I see it influencing is if they cannot get an item advantage over you due to this change but I highly doubt that. Honestly I give it a week before people have figured out which junglers can clear, gank, and be as terrifying as always, if that. If you're assuming junglers are never going to level 2/3/4 gank, and succeed, you're wrong. I assume that I'm not going to get 2/3/4 ganked by every jungler, and now I'll start to be able to figure out which junglers those are at the loading screen. For example, I doubt Shy/Naut/Sej, for example, will be able to gank after/during first clear. The only reason that it's "every jungler" right now is because the ones that can't do it aren't played lol. And it will be the same in the new jungle when people stop playing the junglers that are ineffective in the new jungle. Sure you won't get 2/3/4 ganked by WW in the current jungle, but that's because WW sucks in the current jungle.
Hopefully (and this may be wishful thinking) "who is a jungler" will no longer be determined by "can they gank after a first clear?" and will be more along the lines of "can they survive the first clear and turn that into more farm OR gank effectively?". I'd be very happy if we had a split of "farm junglers who can survive and work well with the farm" and "gank junglers who can survive the jungle and also gank".
On November 17 2012 04:28 Amui wrote:
What do people think of the new jungler items. I could see you maybe getting the elder lizard spirit stone if you got early kills, but straight pickaxe seems really risky. The golem one just seems better because of the stats you're getting help so much more for ganking and presence.
The tank one seems really fucking good. The AD caster one is meh, I think. I don't play enough AP junglers to comment on the spellvamp one.
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On xin you build some mix of offensive and defensive items
so you have
brualizer-->ghostblade
or
phage---trinity for offensive
Wits and hexdrinker if need mr
and defensive you have
-sunfire cape (vs armour stackers)
-randuins
-ga
-warmogs
Smash reccommended frozen heart but I feel like always going max cdr on xin is gimmicky because his main role right now functions as an initiator and he already gets a huge armour/mr steriod so not building lots of hp doesn't make much sense.
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it doesn't seem like they are gonna make a jungler like ww suck less in the new jungle, they are just going to make all the other junglers suck more so they can be on the same useless power level too.
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EPT
