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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
On November 17 2012 03:34 Slayer91 wrote: Why anyone would prefer to talk about iG over Xin Zhao is beyond me. xin is a fucking beast Xin is already pretty good and underappreciated, the items are just going to be very effective on him and make him better. | ||
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
We had to slightly lower the gold on the first clear due to the increase of ambient GP10 we put on the map. It seems like we left that undocumented. I'll get back to you guys with the exact numbers, but once you factor that into the calculations early jungle gold should be very similar. We're not looking to buff the jungler early game in any way, shape, or form. If it's a nerf, then let's fix that. It sounds like the passive gp10 you start with has increased, but it's not perfectly clear from Statikk's post. At the very least I've managed to draw attention to the potential issue. | ||
onlywonderboy
United States23745 Posts
On November 17 2012 03:42 Seuss wrote: Good and slightly confusing news, Statikk responded to my post in the PBE forums: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=31492445#31492445 It sounds like the passive gp10 you start with has increased, but it's not perfectly clear from Statikk's post. At the very least I've managed to draw attention to the potential issue. Seems like a pretty big change that they just forgot to mention. Glad they took interest in your post though since the math checked out. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On November 17 2012 03:45 onlywonderboy wrote: Seems like a pretty big change that they just forgot to mention. Glad they took interest in your post though since the math checked out. Look at this: Hmm, I don't think you guys understand what I'm saying. On Summoner's Rift (and on any map for that matter of fact), there is an ambient gold flow that all champions get once the game begins spawning minions (1:30). This amount is independent of the GP10 items which further increase this value. This base value has been increased on the map in order to help out champions who don't get to kill tons of creeps. In order to keep overall gold flow relatively the same for the other champions, we simultaneously also slightly reduced the base value of both lane minions and jungle monsters to compensate. From what I hear, we may have not gotten the ambient gold increase onto the PBE build last night. I'll be looking into that. This makes camping lanes MORE EFFECTIVE, not less. | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
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MooMooMugi
United States10531 Posts
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zodde
Sweden1908 Posts
On November 17 2012 03:50 Requizen wrote: That still makes it a nerf, no? If everyone is getting more gp10, and the lane farm isn't decreasing in value, but the jungle mobs are, doesn't that relatively nerf the jungler's early game compared to laners? Or is there a variable I'm missing? This one: "we simultaneously also slightly reduced the base value of both lane minions and jungle monsters to compensate." | ||
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VirgilSC2
United States6151 Posts
On November 17 2012 03:50 Requizen wrote: That still makes it a nerf, no? If everyone is getting more gp10, and the lane farm isn't decreasing in value, but the jungle mobs are, doesn't that relatively nerf the jungler's early game compared to laners? Or is there a variable I'm missing? we simultaneously also slightly reduced the base value of both lane minions and jungle monsters to compensate. Also: I really don't like the change. It means you can't get as much of an advantage on your opponents. There's no way to out-passive gold generate your opponent or zone them from their passive gold generation. All it does is close the gap between good and bad players -_- | ||
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onlywonderboy
United States23745 Posts
On November 17 2012 03:50 Requizen wrote: That still makes it a nerf, no? If everyone is getting more gp10, and the lane farm isn't decreasing in value, but the jungle mobs are, doesn't that relatively nerf the jungler's early game compared to laners? Or is there a variable I'm missing? It says in the quote they have lowered the base value of both minions and jungle monsters. Edit: Double Ninja'd | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
On November 17 2012 03:50 cLutZ wrote: Look at this: This makes camping lanes MORE EFFECTIVE, not less. Oh, I missed that. However, saying camping is more effective may not be true. With the removal of HoG, and the difficulty of the jungle encouraging Hunter's Machete items (Wriggle's, Spirit Stone) over Philo, you won't make nearly as much standing in a bush as you would before with 2 gp10s. To keep up, you actually need to kill things, and I honestly don't think Philo will still be core on many Junglers anymore. | ||
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VirgilSC2
United States6151 Posts
It makes roaming less penalized. It makes losing lane less penalized. I can't think of a single positive other that "This is how supports get more gold" It just seems like a stupid decision IMO | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On November 17 2012 00:21 Slayer91 wrote: also lol@yango saying "saintvicious farming jungle works better in solo queue because of the selfish nature of it" wtf bro? You ever jungled in solo queue in the last year? How many times you think your lanes are all going to feed and flame you if you play a farming style. Try to "carry" with extra 300 gold when every lane loses. Saintvicious has always had a shitty solo queue rating and oddone hit rank one with jungle nunu. Ganking is WAY stronger in solo queue because people ward less and play more agressively. Saintvicious farming style worked way better in arranged play when he could do work in the midgame. As far as I remember, Saint was on the 1st page of solo queue rankings for the majority of the latter half of S1, while TOO wasn't. | ||
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Zdrastochye
Ivory Coast6262 Posts
On November 17 2012 04:02 TheYango wrote: As far as I remember, Saint was on the 1st page of solo queue rankings for the majority of the latter half of S1, while TOO wasn't. Afaik Saint's never been #1 while TOO has. | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
On November 17 2012 03:59 VirgilSC2 wrote: I really really don't like this change at all. It makes roaming less penalized. It makes losing lane less penalized. I can't think of a single positive other that "This is how supports get more gold" It just seems like a stupid decision IMO I like it, personally. Items are fun, especially a lot of the new ones. Enabling people to buy items is a good thing. Even if it closes the distance, it's personally no fun being so far behind all you have is a cloth armor and boots (or whatever). The people ahead are still going to have more stuff, so there shouldn't be that much of an issue. And I want to see more roaming from non-junglers. You see mids do it (tops not as often, but they do I guess), but I'd be really happy if we saw more supports or specific ADs (like Graves or Varus, who have decent gank support) roam. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On November 17 2012 04:04 Zdrastochye wrote: Afaik Saint's never been #1 while TOO has. He said 1st page not #1. | ||
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Zdrastochye
Ivory Coast6262 Posts
On November 17 2012 04:04 Numy wrote: It doesn't do any of that since it gives everyone the same amount. It basically just makes the game reach mid/late etc. quicker. It doesn't penalize roaming less or losing lane less since the relative gold amounts will still be the same. I don't see how it makes camping lanes more effective either since you still losing out on money. He said 1st page not #1. Right but he's making an argument as to why Saint > TOO. I'm countering that argument. | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
On November 17 2012 04:04 Numy wrote: It doesn't do any of that since it gives everyone the same amount. It basically just makes the game reach mid/late etc. quicker. It doesn't penalize roaming less or losing lane less since the relative gold amounts will still be the same. I don't see how it makes camping lanes more effective either since you still losing out on money. ...it does. It makes zero-gp10 item camping stronger than it is currently, since you get more gold sitting in the brush than you do now. Of course, right now most camping from jungles is done with 1-2 gp10 items, so it probably averages out to about the same. It really is just more for support than anything. It also helps 1v2 lanes, since losing a handful of farm under tower is less penalizing. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On November 17 2012 03:55 Requizen wrote: Oh, I missed that. However, saying camping is more effective may not be true. With the removal of HoG, and the difficulty of the jungle encouraging Hunter's Machete items (Wriggle's, Spirit Stone) over Philo, you won't make nearly as much standing in a bush as you would before with 2 gp10s. To keep up, you actually need to kill things, and I honestly don't think Philo will still be core on many Junglers anymore. I still say, "All hail king Maokai." Unless he simply cannot farm at all in the new jungle. IMO the jungle changes really change nothing in the way Riot says they were going to (making Jungle a 4th lane, stopping early game jungle ganks from having huge impact). Instead, the impact just changes who can jungle (maybe we see more WW and other champs with terrible early game ganks, thus reducing earlygame ganking), and makes laners less able to tax the jungle (overall reduction in team gold, because most mids take wraiths while the jungler is away). | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On November 17 2012 04:07 Requizen wrote: ...it does. It makes zero-gp10 item camping stronger than it is currently, since you get more gold sitting in the brush than you do now. Of course, right now most camping from jungles is done with 1-2 gp10 items, so it probably averages out to about the same. It really is just more for support than anything. It also helps 1v2 lanes, since losing a handful of farm under tower is less penalizing. You have to look at it relative to other people in the game. Camping issue was that the enemy jungler would just get ahead and thus be more effective later on if you failed. The same still applies so the effectiveness of camping doesn't change just because you get slightly more gold. The enemy still gets that more gold and if he can be effective while not camping you are still losing out. As for the 1v2 it's still relative. If you are losing farm under tower while the other guy isn't you are still losing. Ambient gold just shifts the phases earlier because there's more gold in the map. | ||
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VirgilSC2
United States6151 Posts
On November 17 2012 04:04 Numy wrote: It doesn't do any of that since it gives everyone the same amount. It basically just makes the game reach mid/late etc. quicker. It doesn't penalize roaming less or losing lane less since the relative gold amounts will still be the same. I don't see how it makes camping lanes more effective either since you still losing out on money. ...what? Imagine if I handed you $10 every hour. Now imagine if on top of that, for every box of something you moved, you got an extra $2 and you're competing against someone else, also getting handed $10 every hour, and paid the same rate. Now, Imagine if I started handing you $13 every hour, and $1.50 per box moved. Your opponent now stays closer to you in money earned, regardless of how many more boxes you moved. That's what Riot is doing. Clearly all Obamas fault. | ||
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