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On December 01 2012 05:29 OutlaW- wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2012 05:27 BlackPaladin wrote:On December 01 2012 05:21 arb wrote:On December 01 2012 05:00 thenexusp wrote:On December 01 2012 04:20 kainzero wrote:
i'm kind of sick of people complaining about NA teams being substandard and suggesting what they should do to get better
when i see teams doing poorly, it inspires me to make my own team and compete instead of complaining on the internet about why another team sucks and armchairing it up. You don't have to be a professional player to realize that a professional player is worse than another People do take armchair coaching too far a lot of the time but for 99.9% of people that wish NA had a more competitive scene, getting good enough to form their own team is nowhere near a viable option. When someone says "oh man star wars episode 2 absolutely sucked" you don't respond with "why don't you make your own movie then" atleast it had that really cool battle scene Do you mean 500 jedi who can cut through droids like butter, when in episode 1 we were shown just how useless the droids are against jedi? Or do you mean the completely expendable droids vs the completely expendable clone troopers, both of which are shown to be mass produced so we feel nothing for their loss? i guess he means either the dooku fight or the animal fight
i'd forgotten they named a major villian dooku...
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On December 01 2012 05:41 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2012 05:36 OutlaW- wrote:
You still think maknoon is the best? And how does doublelift compare to weixiao? Lilac is better, but Maknoon deserves a certain amount of credit for how he plays top lane in a way that directs the tempo of the game in a way unlike most other top laners. Doublelift has flashy plays, but Weixiao's fundamentals are simply unmatched. Go back and look at the way Weixiao lasthits and harasses in lane. He's never waiting for a lasthit. He's making use of every autoattack CD but he's still getting every lasthit, while getting off every autoattack virtually on CD (often on enemy champs). He doesn't wait for lasthits--he makes it seem like the lasthits are just coming to him.
I 100% agree - it's almost laughable when anyone try to claim that any AD other than Weixiao is the best.
I gotta say that I don't feel like Maknoon/Lilac are as far apart from other great top laners as Weixiao is from other great AD's though.
Edit: http://leaguepedia.com/wiki/A_Lilac here you go
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On December 01 2012 05:29 OutlaW- wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2012 05:27 BlackPaladin wrote:On December 01 2012 05:21 arb wrote:On December 01 2012 05:00 thenexusp wrote:On December 01 2012 04:20 kainzero wrote:
i'm kind of sick of people complaining about NA teams being substandard and suggesting what they should do to get better
when i see teams doing poorly, it inspires me to make my own team and compete instead of complaining on the internet about why another team sucks and armchairing it up. You don't have to be a professional player to realize that a professional player is worse than another People do take armchair coaching too far a lot of the time but for 99.9% of people that wish NA had a more competitive scene, getting good enough to form their own team is nowhere near a viable option. When someone says "oh man star wars episode 2 absolutely sucked" you don't respond with "why don't you make your own movie then" atleast it had that really cool battle scene Do you mean 500 jedi who can cut through droids like butter, when in episode 1 we were shown just how useless the droids are against jedi? Or do you mean the completely expendable droids vs the completely expendable clone troopers, both of which are shown to be mass produced so we feel nothing for their loss? i guess he means either the dooku fight or the animal fight
animal fight and dooku fight was kinda cool yeah.
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why can i never get queued up with a tler instead of against lolol
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On December 01 2012 05:34 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2012 03:31 obesechicken13 wrote:On December 01 2012 03:17 SoulSever wrote:On November 30 2012 05:40 TheYango wrote:On November 30 2012 05:25 Sandster wrote:On November 30 2012 05:18 PrinceXizor wrote:On November 30 2012 05:14 Pooshlmer wrote:
I'm saying that people are deluding themselves into thinking that, for example, Lustboy is godlike just because he practices SO much harder than all the other supports. ....? that IS why he's so good. because he works so hard at it? he didn't just decide to play LoL one day and win a tournament. all genetics does for LoL it set you at a different starting level. your individual skill cap isn't the limiting factor in LoL. I'd argue that genetics affects the *rate* as which you improve with practice. The best practice really really hard, and improves just a bit more than the really good people who practice really really hard. But the overall level of LoL play isn't so high that is a limiting factor yet. BW only really hit that point after like 7-8 years (at the point where you could say TBLS were dominating on the basis of their talent AND their practice). LoL isn't anywhere close to that yet. The day we have anything comparable to TBLS is the day I'll have t find an easier game to feel good about  On March 10 2011 00:38 e_i_pi_1_0 wrote:On March 10 2011 00:32 Krallin wrote:
Thanks a lot for that translation!
On a sidenote, could anyone tell me what TBLS means? TBLS = Taekbangleessang Taek = Bisu Bang = Stork Leessang = Jaedong/Flash On topic: Thanks for the translation. Pretty cool interview. Looking forward to more hive tech ZvZs. We have Froggen. And hotshot is a mini boxer? Absolutely laughable that you'd compare Froggen to TBLS. On form, TBLS basically don't lose series games to anyone except each other. Froggen's nowhere near that good at AP given the significant number of world class APs at the moment that can all win or lose against each other. The only players you could even make an argument for having that level of mastery over their role are Weixiao on AD or Maknoon/Lilac on top lane.
He obviously doesn't make up both Flash and Jaedong and doesn't show the level of dominance, but when I watch him I'm always in awe at his plays.
Except when he plays Lee Sin. He misses too many Qs as Lee Sin.
Back in the BW days I'd watch a vod just because it had "Flash vs" or "Jaedong vs" in the name. I think if Froggen had vods I'd watch his too.
We may never see Flash level dominance in a team game.
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On December 01 2012 02:27 Requizen wrote:
Kayle's a tricky laner in general. A lot of times, I feel the only way to really keep her from messing you up is to bait out the QE combo, back off, and then try to abuse her while they're on CD. When they're not up, she does no damage, but be aware that they're both on a (relatively) short cooldown. Q is a big nuke that also increases her damage on you by 6/7/8/9/10%, so never ever fight her while it's active on you.
If she spams Q and W, she'll be oom sooner than later, so try to force her to use abilities and then re-engage when they're down and she has no mana. She also pushes really hard if she's trying to harass with E, so freeze the lane and take advantage of that.
Her biggest weakness (from what I hear from better Kayle players) is ganks. Because she has only an expensive, long cd, somewhat minimal sprint to rely on for escape, and she pushes if she's harassing (which is a lot), she's often very vulnerable. Yeah, you can't rely on competent junglers in solo queue, but it's something to keep in mind.
If you're melee (as Shen is), you can't really punish her that hard during QE downtime unless she's wasting it on minion waves or something. If she uses QE at the same time, there is no period where her Q is down and her E is inactive and on cooldown. (Q comes back up before E range modifier expires.)
Getting her to run OOM seems like your best bet; abusing bushes helps to make her waste her E.
Aasking for ganks when she is pushed is good too, though certain junglers will have trouble catching her if she warded.
I don't see how freezing the lane would help if she has mana; you're just asking to be harrassed to death. She can still farm just fine even if you freeze.
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On December 01 2012 05:00 thenexusp wrote:
People do take armchair coaching too far a lot of the time but for 99.9% of people that wish NA had a more competitive scene, getting good enough to form their own team is nowhere near a viable option. When someone says "oh man star wars episode 2 absolutely sucked" you don't respond with "why don't you make your own movie then"
we can always analyze plays in game. hotshot gets caught, what the heck is nhat doing in that position, etc., sick Caomei play, etc., doublelift OMG, i get that. that makes sense.
what i don't get is these sweeping scene change mentalities that people propose. "team X should move into a gaming house." "team Y should hire a coach." "team Z should stop streaming and scrim all day." not only does the general public not have accurate information as to what a team is doing, they want to propose solutions based on that inaccurate information. i remember when after worlds, people were shitting on dignitas saying they didn't practice that hard until scarra was saying that they busted their ass every day in scrims or trying to look for them.
another reason why i feel strongly about this is the focus on solo queue ELO throughout the scene. have you ever seen anyone complaining about ELO hell in arranged 5s? you can call out NA for not having any "real" competition but then these same people idolize solo queue and do absolutely nothing to contribute to the arranged 5s scene.
there are ways to improve the competitive LoL scene in NA that you and i can do. proposing silly things like coaching changes or metagame breakers for top teams is not one of them.
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On December 01 2012 06:35 bmn wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2012 02:27 Requizen wrote:
Kayle's a tricky laner in general. A lot of times, I feel the only way to really keep her from messing you up is to bait out the QE combo, back off, and then try to abuse her while they're on CD. When they're not up, she does no damage, but be aware that they're both on a (relatively) short cooldown. Q is a big nuke that also increases her damage on you by 6/7/8/9/10%, so never ever fight her while it's active on you.
If she spams Q and W, she'll be oom sooner than later, so try to force her to use abilities and then re-engage when they're down and she has no mana. She also pushes really hard if she's trying to harass with E, so freeze the lane and take advantage of that.
Her biggest weakness (from what I hear from better Kayle players) is ganks. Because she has only an expensive, long cd, somewhat minimal sprint to rely on for escape, and she pushes if she's harassing (which is a lot), she's often very vulnerable. Yeah, you can't rely on competent junglers in solo queue, but it's something to keep in mind. If you're melee (as Shen is), you can't really punish her that hard during QE downtime unless she's wasting it on minion waves or something. If she uses QE at the same time, there is no period where her Q is down and her E is inactive and on cooldown. (Q comes back up before E range modifier expires.) Getting her to run OOM seems like your best bet; abusing bushes helps to make her waste her E. Aasking for ganks when she is pushed is good too, though certain junglers will have trouble catching her if she warded. I don't see how freezing the lane would help if she has mana; you're just asking to be harrassed to death. She can still farm just fine even if you freeze.
As I said, you can still engage when E is up fairly safely, just not while you have Q on you. The on hit is decent damage, sure, but it's really that 10% extra damage to you when you're slowed that makes her randomly hit like a truck. So with Q having 8 second CD and 4 second uptime, you just kind of have to force it, run and hide, try to make something happen when it's down, and after she uses it ~5-6 times she's oom. I think playing hit and run style aggression on her is a good way, but only certain champs can really pull it off. Kayle just dumps on people that don't have decent enough mobility to either get in range and fight or get away from her onslaught.
Freezing lane is more to keep her in a holding pattern until your mid or jungle comes up. Better to have it frozen near your tower where you can farm semi-safely and she's vulnerable than in the middle of the lane.
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On December 01 2012 06:39 kainzero wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2012 05:00 thenexusp wrote:
People do take armchair coaching too far a lot of the time but for 99.9% of people that wish NA had a more competitive scene, getting good enough to form their own team is nowhere near a viable option. When someone says "oh man star wars episode 2 absolutely sucked" you don't respond with "why don't you make your own movie then" we can always analyze plays in game. hotshot gets caught, what the heck is nhat doing in that position, etc., sick Caomei play, etc., doublelift OMG, i get that. that makes sense. what i don't get is these sweeping scene change mentalities that people propose. "team X should move into a gaming house." "team Y should hire a coach." "team Z should stop streaming and scrim all day." not only does the general public not have accurate information as to what a team is doing, they want to propose solutions based on that inaccurate information. i remember when after worlds, people were shitting on dignitas saying they didn't practice that hard until scarra was saying that they busted their ass every day in scrims or trying to look for them.
I'm not sure what your point is here. Every CLG fan had a right to be irate after seeing them do nothing but stream soloQ for the ENTIRE 2 weeks before World Champs. Not to say that what CLG does is a great representation of every NA team's work ethic, it certainly says something about the scene as a whole when the #2 team clearly don't give a fuck about the biggest touney of their lives and have the audacity to blame a coin flip...
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On December 01 2012 06:42 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2012 06:35 bmn wrote:On December 01 2012 02:27 Requizen wrote:
Kayle's a tricky laner in general. A lot of times, I feel the only way to really keep her from messing you up is to bait out the QE combo, back off, and then try to abuse her while they're on CD. When they're not up, she does no damage, but be aware that they're both on a (relatively) short cooldown. Q is a big nuke that also increases her damage on you by 6/7/8/9/10%, so never ever fight her while it's active on you.
If she spams Q and W, she'll be oom sooner than later, so try to force her to use abilities and then re-engage when they're down and she has no mana. She also pushes really hard if she's trying to harass with E, so freeze the lane and take advantage of that.
Her biggest weakness (from what I hear from better Kayle players) is ganks. Because she has only an expensive, long cd, somewhat minimal sprint to rely on for escape, and she pushes if she's harassing (which is a lot), she's often very vulnerable. Yeah, you can't rely on competent junglers in solo queue, but it's something to keep in mind. If you're melee (as Shen is), you can't really punish her that hard during QE downtime unless she's wasting it on minion waves or something. If she uses QE at the same time, there is no period where her Q is down and her E is inactive and on cooldown. (Q comes back up before E range modifier expires.) Getting her to run OOM seems like your best bet; abusing bushes helps to make her waste her E. Aasking for ganks when she is pushed is good too, though certain junglers will have trouble catching her if she warded. I don't see how freezing the lane would help if she has mana; you're just asking to be harrassed to death. She can still farm just fine even if you freeze. As I said, you can still engage when E is up fairly safely, just not while you have Q on you. The on hit is decent damage, sure, but it's really that 10% extra damage to you when you're slowed that makes her randomly hit like a truck. So with Q having 8 second CD and 4 second uptime, you just kind of have to force it, run and hide, try to make something happen when it's down, and after she uses it ~5-6 times she's oom.
I don't see how you'd conclude that it's the 10% amplifier that makes her win trades (and not the damage of Q/E itself) during the laning phase.
10% extra damage is only once she has level 5 Q. By then the Q itself does 260 magic damage without any AP or AD ratios taken into account.
You'd have to do 2600 damage in 4 seconds to make the 10% amplifier exceed the amount of damage that the Q itself did. And you can't dodge the Q's burst damage either.
Granted, I'm not taking resistances into account, but those don't change numbers that dramatically early on -- we are talking about the laning phase, after all.
And that's not even taking the E on-hit damage into account. At level 1, E adds 20 magic damage; you'd need to do over 200 damage per hit to make the 10% bonus increase stronger than the on-hit E increase.
(Again, resistances do change it somewhat, but it's far from obvious that it's the damage amplification that makes her hit "like a truck".)
If she maxes E before Q the numbers are even stronger in favor of E. Level 5 E with level 1 Q means the on-hit damage is 60 with a 6% damage amplification on Q. I don't see how you'll realistically do more damage by fighting while her E is up (but Q is on cd and the debuff has worn off) than you would by fighting when her Q is up (but hre E is down).
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United States47024 Posts
On December 01 2012 06:35 obesechicken13 wrote:
We may never see Flash level dominance in a team game.
DotA begs to differ.
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On December 01 2012 06:49 SoulSever wrote:
I'm not sure what your point is here. Every CLG fan had a right to be irate after seeing them do nothing but stream soloQ for the ENTIRE 2 weeks before World Champs. Not to say that what CLG does is a great representation of every NA team's work ethic, it certainly says something about the scene as a whole when the #2 team clearly don't give a fuck about the biggest touney of their lives and have the audacity to blame a coin flip...
maybe the CLG fans shouldn't have watched their streams and put money in CLG's pockets instead of bitching about it later.
the infamous chauster interview didn't blame a coin flip. just a tendency of the internets to go overboard on something easy to grasp.
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On December 01 2012 07:03 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2012 06:35 obesechicken13 wrote:
We may never see Flash level dominance in a team game. DotA begs to differ.
It's definitely going to take a long time until we see it. The number of possible interactions in LoL is enormous. It would take the utmost dedication from a player to a) know everything there is to know about every strategy, comp, match-up and scenario; and b) have the correct decision making to play like a TBLS. Think about how long it took for BW to produce Dinotoss, Beesuit, God and Tyrant
On December 01 2012 07:07 kainzero wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2012 06:49 SoulSever wrote:
I'm not sure what your point is here. Every CLG fan had a right to be irate after seeing them do nothing but stream soloQ for the ENTIRE 2 weeks before World Champs. Not to say that what CLG does is a great representation of every NA team's work ethic, it certainly says something about the scene as a whole when the #2 team clearly don't give a fuck about the biggest touney of their lives and have the audacity to blame a coin flip... maybe the CLG fans shouldn't have watched their streams and put money in CLG's pockets instead of bitching about it later. the infamous chauster interview didn't blame a coin flip. just a tendency of the internets to go overboard on something easy to grasp.
He basically said not getting the right side is auto-loss. I'm not sure but I think that may have been an actual quote...
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On December 01 2012 07:03 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2012 06:35 obesechicken13 wrote:
We may never see Flash level dominance in a team game. DotA begs to differ.
What team is currently very dominant in DotA?
I never really followed the DotA scene that much, but I've always had somewhat of an interest, and I caught som games in TI2 as well.
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Even if you have a god tier player you're still playing a team game, you'll need the whole team to be dominant and you almost never see the best all on one team because of disagreements, ego's and personalities conflicting with each other.
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On December 01 2012 07:13 EquilasH wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2012 07:03 TheYango wrote:On December 01 2012 06:35 obesechicken13 wrote:
We may never see Flash level dominance in a team game. DotA begs to differ. What team is currently very dominant in DotA? I never really followed the DotA scene that much, but I've always had somewhat of an interest, and I caught som games in TI2 as well.
Well dota 2 seems a bit unstable but for awhile it was basically LGD/iG/DK > Everyone. It's still kind of like that now but there's a few teams that could maybe make an upset giving right conditions.
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United States47024 Posts
On December 01 2012 07:19 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2012 07:13 EquilasH wrote:On December 01 2012 07:03 TheYango wrote:On December 01 2012 06:35 obesechicken13 wrote:
We may never see Flash level dominance in a team game. DotA begs to differ. What team is currently very dominant in DotA? I never really followed the DotA scene that much, but I've always had somewhat of an interest, and I caught som games in TI2 as well. Well dota 2 seems a bit unstable but for awhile it was basically LGD/iG/DK > Everyone. It's still kind of like that now but there's a few teams that could maybe make an upset giving right conditions.
There's also EHOME 2010 and DK 2011 that basically just won everything during their heyday.
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On December 01 2012 07:23 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2012 07:19 Numy wrote:On December 01 2012 07:13 EquilasH wrote:On December 01 2012 07:03 TheYango wrote:On December 01 2012 06:35 obesechicken13 wrote:
We may never see Flash level dominance in a team game. DotA begs to differ. What team is currently very dominant in DotA? I never really followed the DotA scene that much, but I've always had somewhat of an interest, and I caught som games in TI2 as well. Well dota 2 seems a bit unstable but for awhile it was basically LGD/iG/DK > Everyone. It's still kind of like that now but there's a few teams that could maybe make an upset giving right conditions. There's also EHOME 2010 and DK 2011 that basically just won everything during their heyday.
Hes being modest. in 2010 there was 10 major tournaments in china dota. EHOME won them all. ALL of them.
then they lost to navi in dota 2  .
The truth is that if you want to know the future of lol you're going to find it in dota.
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EPT
