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On November 24 2012 04:23 Shiv. wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2012 04:08 CompX wrote:
I was just thinking about cc during my walk, I figured out that there are only a hand full of champions (Kass, Talon, Raka, Lulu, Fid, etc) have silence as their primary/secondary disable. Is it because silence is such a weak disable that Riot think that stun, snare and slow> silence/they just totally forgot about such disable exist? But, in my opinion, silence is pretty strong, especially fid's darkwind in teamfights
I think it's because Riot doesn't want to have people feel too helplessly and useless during a teamfight. Most silences have a duration upwards of two seconds (Fiddle being the big exception, but he is capable of silencing a single target for more than most people, at least in theory), Cho can silence you for 3 seconds straight. Getting stunned sucks, sure, but stuns usually last a second or maybe 1,5. Getting silenced is soooo much more infuriating for some reason, though. I guess it's ''unfun'' not being able to cast your abilites, and so Riot took a balancing approach where they didn't nerf the individual skills into the ground but rather branched out on forms of hard CC, resulting in less available sources of silences which last longer as a result. Show nested quote +On November 24 2012 04:19 OutlaW- wrote:
Irelia Jax and Udyr are like the only heroes that lee loses to - and he even beats jax for the first 9 or so levels. I think it's a bit ridiculous. Or maybe my Lee is just much better than my elo
It's true Lee has an easy time against basically everything but Irelia (Udyr isn't relevant enough any more to be considered imo), but that's doesn't mean he wins his lanes in a hard enough fashion for it to matter. If you manage not to be more than 20-30 CS behind a Lee as Jax, you will be a much much bigger threat than Lee, and that goes for a lot of top laners. Lee is AWESOME in lane and I plan on maining him this season, but you have to do some serious work to take this advantage into the later stages of the game.
ye as i said jax outscales him very hard but thats 3 heroes out of like 100, he straight up dominates so many people its not even funny
the notion that lee scales badly is also just a hoax, if you say that you're just playing it wrong
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On November 24 2012 04:17 NeoIllusions wrote:
Noob teams really.
Ad support top. Bruiser (think lee sin) mid. TP galio bot. Win hard or break even in all lanes. Crush every team objective and team fight. Wat enemy dew?
This knowledge bomb brought to you by Yango.
This is just a complicated lane swap if you lane your ap bot bruiser mid and ad support top it's basically exactly the same.
And galio is meh at taking objectives, if you want dragon control you want a top with TP and if you want gank control you want your mid with tp.
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Well LB played correctly is terrifying late game, but you still can't really say that she "scales" well as, even if it's true regarding her ratios, scaling can't be summarized to this.
Lee, Nocturne, Pantheon get hurt badly by how their damage drop in the lategame if they want to live more than 2s (and even built glass-cannon they're too susceptible to dying during disables before they can finish off anyone).
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On November 24 2012 04:30 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2012 04:17 NeoIllusions wrote:
Noob teams really.
Ad support top. Bruiser (think lee sin) mid. TP galio bot. Win hard or break even in all lanes. Crush every team objective and team fight. Wat enemy dew?
This knowledge bomb brought to you by Yango. Why run TP on Galio bot lane? Can't quite get my head around that.
I guess so you can dominate mid with your bruiser and top with ADC+support without falling behind. Add a mummy in the jungle and you have a neat setup right there.
On November 24 2012 04:36 OutlaW- wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2012 04:23 Shiv. wrote:On November 24 2012 04:08 CompX wrote:
I was just thinking about cc during my walk, I figured out that there are only a hand full of champions (Kass, Talon, Raka, Lulu, Fid, etc) have silence as their primary/secondary disable. Is it because silence is such a weak disable that Riot think that stun, snare and slow> silence/they just totally forgot about such disable exist? But, in my opinion, silence is pretty strong, especially fid's darkwind in teamfights
I think it's because Riot doesn't want to have people feel too helplessly and useless during a teamfight. Most silences have a duration upwards of two seconds (Fiddle being the big exception, but he is capable of silencing a single target for more than most people, at least in theory), Cho can silence you for 3 seconds straight. Getting stunned sucks, sure, but stuns usually last a second or maybe 1,5. Getting silenced is soooo much more infuriating for some reason, though. I guess it's ''unfun'' not being able to cast your abilites, and so Riot took a balancing approach where they didn't nerf the individual skills into the ground but rather branched out on forms of hard CC, resulting in less available sources of silences which last longer as a result. On November 24 2012 04:19 OutlaW- wrote:
Irelia Jax and Udyr are like the only heroes that lee loses to - and he even beats jax for the first 9 or so levels. I think it's a bit ridiculous. Or maybe my Lee is just much better than my elo
It's true Lee has an easy time against basically everything but Irelia (Udyr isn't relevant enough any more to be considered imo), but that's doesn't mean he wins his lanes in a hard enough fashion for it to matter. If you manage not to be more than 20-30 CS behind a Lee as Jax, you will be a much much bigger threat than Lee, and that goes for a lot of top laners. Lee is AWESOME in lane and I plan on maining him this season, but you have to do some serious work to take this advantage into the later stages of the game. ye as i said jax outscales him very hard but thats 3 heroes out of like 100, he straight up dominates so many people its not even funny the notion that lee scales badly is also just a hoax, if you say that you're just playing it wrong
Then please enlighten me how Lee is supposed to do much but peeling come late game without dropping to anyone with CC like a fly. He can kamikaze initiate with flash, sure, but there's people better suited for that. Lee has similar issues Panth is struggling with later in the game, and there's no way around that really. I mean, sure, you can build TF BT LW, but you will simply die really really quickly if you do so.
On November 24 2012 04:44 OutlaW- wrote:
I'm sorry but what I'm saying is that you're wrong. You can literally go full tank (only damage item being sunfire cape) leesin and still be able to 1v1 their AD when you're both 6 items. Not to mention that you can 60% slow 5 people for 2 seconds, interrupt important shit with kick or just straight up kick somebody out of the fight. Late game lee is amazing utility unless you build like a retard.
Sorry, but that's just plain wrong. You cannot 1v1 a 6 item AD carry unless he's utterly dumb, and even if, so what? Who the fuck cares about 1v1s, you need to teamfight and there will be 4 people potentially protecting said carry. Lee does not have the same means to deal with that like other champs do.
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I'm sorry but what I'm saying is that you're wrong. You can literally go full tank (only damage item being sunfire cape) leesin and still be able to 1v1 their AD when you're both 6 items. Not to mention that you can 60% slow 5 people for 2 seconds, interrupt important shit with kick or just straight up kick somebody out of the fight. Late game lee is amazing utility unless you build like a retard.
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Speaking of Jax, whom exactly does he beat top pre-level 6? I feel like I have been getting beaten by pretty much everyone other than Irelia before level 6. He just doesn't trade very well, particularly against anyone that relies upon anything other than autoattacks for their harassment. Even if I land my counterstrike with Q and W, I still feel like a lot of heroes simply out-damage me. If I don't have counterstrike available, then I simply lose. Am I doing something wrong?
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On November 24 2012 04:36 OutlaW- wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2012 04:23 Shiv. wrote:On November 24 2012 04:08 CompX wrote:
I was just thinking about cc during my walk, I figured out that there are only a hand full of champions (Kass, Talon, Raka, Lulu, Fid, etc) have silence as their primary/secondary disable. Is it because silence is such a weak disable that Riot think that stun, snare and slow> silence/they just totally forgot about such disable exist? But, in my opinion, silence is pretty strong, especially fid's darkwind in teamfights
I think it's because Riot doesn't want to have people feel too helplessly and useless during a teamfight. Most silences have a duration upwards of two seconds (Fiddle being the big exception, but he is capable of silencing a single target for more than most people, at least in theory), Cho can silence you for 3 seconds straight. Getting stunned sucks, sure, but stuns usually last a second or maybe 1,5. Getting silenced is soooo much more infuriating for some reason, though. I guess it's ''unfun'' not being able to cast your abilites, and so Riot took a balancing approach where they didn't nerf the individual skills into the ground but rather branched out on forms of hard CC, resulting in less available sources of silences which last longer as a result. On November 24 2012 04:19 OutlaW- wrote:
Irelia Jax and Udyr are like the only heroes that lee loses to - and he even beats jax for the first 9 or so levels. I think it's a bit ridiculous. Or maybe my Lee is just much better than my elo
It's true Lee has an easy time against basically everything but Irelia (Udyr isn't relevant enough any more to be considered imo), but that's doesn't mean he wins his lanes in a hard enough fashion for it to matter. If you manage not to be more than 20-30 CS behind a Lee as Jax, you will be a much much bigger threat than Lee, and that goes for a lot of top laners. Lee is AWESOME in lane and I plan on maining him this season, but you have to do some serious work to take this advantage into the later stages of the game. ye as i said jax outscales him very hard but thats 3 heroes out of like 100, he straight up dominates so many people its not even funny the notion that lee scales badly is also just a hoax, if you say that you're just playing it wrong
its retarded how much better jax and irelia scale than any other bruiser, theres literally no point in playing anything else unless its some kind of utility tank like malphite or shen
tbh im mad it takes riot so much time to notice theres problem with those champions -.-
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its a farm thing if you've seen 95% of lees go jungle they suck lategame because he's farm dependent. Imagine how bad darius would be late if he was jungled
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On November 24 2012 04:44 xDaunt wrote:
Speaking of Jax, whom exactly does he beat top pre-level 6? I feel like I have been getting beaten by pretty much everyone other than Irelia before level 6. He just doesn't trade very well, particularly against anyone that relies upon anything other than autoattacks for their harassment. Even if I land my counterstrike with Q and W, I still feel like a lot of heroes simply out-damage me. If I don't have counterstrike available, then I simply lose. Am I doing something wrong?
I don't think you're doing anything wrong unless you full-on engage without your E. Jax is supposed to work like this.
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On November 24 2012 04:47 Slayer91 wrote:
its a farm thing if you've seen 95% of lees go jungle they suck lategame because he's farm dependent. Imagine how bad darius would be late if he was jungled
its other way around, farmed lee isnt much stronger than under-farmed one, thats why jungle suits him better, i feel like top farm is getting wasted on him and its better to use it on something which scales better he is great jungler because he rapes everything early-mid with low gold income
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except when it comes to the fact that you can't do anything to their ad carry
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On November 24 2012 04:52 kongoline wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2012 04:47 Slayer91 wrote:
its a farm thing if you've seen 95% of lees go jungle they suck lategame because he's farm dependent. Imagine how bad darius would be late if he was jungled its other way around, farmed lee isnt much stronger than under-farmed one, thats why jungle suits him better, i feel like top farm is getting wasted on him and its better to use it on something which scales better he is great jungler because he rapes everything early-mid with low gold income
Yeah, I agree with this. Even fully farmed, I've never felt like Lee has a great presence in the late game.
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You have first hand experience? Because I do. Naturally it matters how much you farm, but I hope that saying how much gold you have is important is obvious. Aegis, GA, merc, Sunfire, Randuin and Warmog/Thornmail Lee is a powerhouse no matter how you look at it. Y'all underestimate it, fine. I hope I meet you in soloq 1 day.
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On November 24 2012 04:52 kongoline wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2012 04:47 Slayer91 wrote:
its a farm thing if you've seen 95% of lees go jungle they suck lategame because he's farm dependent. Imagine how bad darius would be late if he was jungled its other way around, farmed lee isnt much stronger than under-farmed one, thats why jungle suits him better, i feel like top farm is getting wasted on him and its better to use it on something which scales better he is great jungler because he rapes everything early-mid with low gold income
I disagree, a farmed Lee is actually pretty good, and as Teut said, you can't touch their AD coming from the jungle once he has a certain item threshold. The problem is that once the real late game hits, he cannot touch ADs regardless and what he is supposed to do (mainly utility stuff) works wether he got farmed or not. He will always have a kick, he will always have a 60% AoE slow, regardless of your items. His utility doesn't scale with items, only his damage, and if I wanted to 1v1 carries, I would have picked Jarvan in the first place.
On November 24 2012 04:56 OutlaW- wrote:
You have first hand experience? Because I do. Naturally it matters how much you farm, but I hope that saying how much gold you have is important is obvious. Aegis, GA, merc, Sunfire, Randuin and Warmog/Thornmail Lee is a powerhouse no matter how you look at it. Y'all underestimate it, fine. I hope I meet you in soloq 1 day.
Fuck yeah I have experience, and so has probably everyone arguing here. It's not that Lee doesn't scale well with items, but what he brings to the table (and YOU stated that his biggest assets are his kick and his slow late game) doesn't. Your build is designed to 1v1 their ADC and be obnoxious in a teamfight. Okay, you can do that, but you could also have a Mundo from the jungle do roughly the same thing and have a top laner that is an actual threat. I mean, I'm not sure what we're arguing about, Lee doesn't scale as well as other top laners, and that's fine because of his ridiculous laning presence. Saying he's capable of doing what Rumble, Jax, Kayle, Jayce, Irelia&co can do late game is just plain wrong.
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I'd drop the GA for a shurelya and give that build to Olaf instead anyday, despite the huge mobility discrepancies.
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United States37500 Posts
If lee carries in solo q, it's probably the fact that he snowballed early and the enemy team is peeling incredibly poorly. Against a competent team, he can be effectively neutered. He has immense utility if played correctly but he doesn't have the damage. A competent ADC wont let lee connect his combo in team fights
Compare that to jax.
Edit: typing on phone stronk
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oh yeah and how exactly is olaf better with 6 items? just because mobility doesn't transfer into any hard stats doesn't mean it's useless. It's useless if you're not creative with it and let it sit. You can gtfo/kite/re-engage fights so easily with lee and often it's game breaking, especially because a farmed lee pushes his advantages around the map so easily. I'd prefer Lee. It helps that he's 2x more fun to play, but honestly I believe that he's better.
On November 24 2012 05:01 NeoIllusions wrote:
If lee carries in solo q, it's probably the fact that he snowballed early and the enemy team is peeling incredibly poorly. Against a competent team, he can be effectively neutered. He has immense utility if played correctly but he doesn't have the damage. A competent wont let lee connect his combo in team fights
Compare that to jax.
Nobody is saying that Lee scales worse than Jax. But Lee is a complete monster in the laning phase and can force objectives more easily. Saying that somebody competent won't let Lee connect his combo is something I definitely don't agree with. It's really not hard hitting a q once in a while, and most of the time you don't even have to. Being the first initiator with Lee is doable but often you can just follow your team or wait for the other team to engage. Saying he doesn't have the damage is true, if you compare him to jax, but his damage is easily comparable to malphite's. He's just harder
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On November 24 2012 05:03 OutlaW- wrote:
oh yeah and how exactly is olaf better with 6 items? just because mobility doesn't transfer into any hard stats doesn't mean it's useless. It's useless if you're not creative with it and let it sit. You can gtfo/kite/re-engage fights so easily with lee and often it's game breaking, especially because a farmed lee pushes his advantages around the map so easily. I'd prefer Lee. It helps that he's 2x more fun to play, but honestly I believe that he's better.
Can't be stopped by hard CC which is the bane of Lee late game, can 1v1 carries easily until very very late into the game due to the way his kit works. (Q reset, true damage, lifesteal, more AS the lower you get). These are the tools designed to kill a AD carry that Lee lacks.
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On November 24 2012 04:44 xDaunt wrote:
Speaking of Jax, whom exactly does he beat top pre-level 6? I feel like I have been getting beaten by pretty much everyone other than Irelia before level 6. He just doesn't trade very well, particularly against anyone that relies upon anything other than autoattacks for their harassment. Even if I land my counterstrike with Q and W, I still feel like a lot of heroes simply out-damage me. If I don't have counterstrike available, then I simply lose. Am I doing something wrong?
you can trade in a lot of lanes, in a few you can kill but not most. when they go for cs auto reset. If they're ranged and move into your creepline at all Q to them, otherwise you haven't got much to do until 6. Using your counterstrike is almost always a mistake. It opens you to jungle ganks and the cooldown is longgggg. If you can be aggressive without using it, save it, if you can't, consider whether you really want to be aggressive right now. The core of jax's laning is the reset and after six the ult proc, counterstrike is there to facilitate it.
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are you seriously going to argue that lee scales good late game when pretty much every pro player agrees he is shit
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EPT
