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Shiv.
3534 Posts
On November 24 2012 05:08 kongoline wrote: are you seriously going to argue that lee scales good late game when pretty much every pro player agrees he is shit Appeal to authority is a weak way of debating. Pro players used ArP reds on AD carries for ages because it was THE BEST OMG BBQ, now they use 15 AD because everything else would be too scrubby | ||
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OutlaW-
Czech Republic5053 Posts
No point continuing this. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
I meant that as "Lee is superior to Olaf in the mobility department", and by extension a "despite that I'd rather get Olaf". Because since disables inherently scale into the lategame (with the increase of general dps and the ability to 100-0 people, especially squishies, a single second of disable translates to more late game than early game, ususally ; the same can be said about utility in general when cdr becomes more prevalent so that 2s stun has more chance to buy time for another spell in go up in the meantime), Olaf's ult is particularly strong: great peelers like Cho, Maokai and Nautilus can't help against him like they could against Lee (Cho's silence would cripple Lee to no end; well, Cho's another case since he has Feast to help kill Olaf). It also makes Olaf a good splitpusher as he's harder to stop. The way his passive and W work also arguably make him a great duelist and can give him a lot of AD off of tanky stats (HP). He can't peel the way Lee can, but with a tanky build he's also a greater threat to the enemy team. Lee's harder to kill in 1v1 because of his mobility, but Olaf's harder to disable and focus down in teamfights, while being unignorable (Olaf's more vulnerable to escapes, while Lee is to roots/knock-backs: while the latter means Lee will stick better to targets, the sheer presence of Olaf can be enough to zone/split the enemy carry, which affects positioning too). Of course those 2 things work better in different team comps and tactics, so it's a kind of case-by-case basis. But I'd rather have Olaf than Lee in general, in the late game and with lane farm. | ||
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kongoline
6318 Posts
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NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
On November 24 2012 05:08 kongoline wrote: are you seriously going to argue that lee scales good late game when pretty much every pro player agrees he is shit Ease up on the hyperbole. I'm ok if we don't convince him. Lee is still good, even if he comparatively worse late game to other bruisers IMO. It does really boil down to the player. Most of us can't be froggen. If outlaw is playing froggen-esque at his elo, more power to him. It's working for him in his games | ||
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Shiv.
3534 Posts
On November 24 2012 05:11 OutlaW- wrote: You guys are funny. I'm probably the only one here who played lee top more than twice and you're all arguing based on flawed theory. Every pro player agrees that he's shit? Source? Context? Should we blindly follow what pros (we all know the NA scene is very deep and knowledgeable, especially the top laners. Wings who is probably the best top laner in NA plays him, by the way.) No point continuing this. You are being ridiculous. Even Wings said on multiple occasions that Lee doesn't carry and that he falls off late game. For the record, Lee has been my most played champion the last two months or so, and I don't jungle. | ||
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OutlaW-
Czech Republic5053 Posts
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Lounge
537 Posts
A) He's still stronger mid game. He tapers off, but it's not as dramatic as people are making it seem. B) You can't gank as much from top as you can from jungle, to abuse this mid game strength. I think that's why Froggen playing him mid was pretty cool. I mean, Froggen is much happier to farm than to gank, but it allows you to get farm on him and still abuse his mid-game ganks. Plus he's fun so screw you guys I'm still playing him top. | ||
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SagaZ
France3460 Posts
On November 24 2012 05:14 Shiv. wrote: You are being ridiculous. Even Wings said on multiple occasions that Lee doesn't carry and that he falls off late game. For the record, Lee has been my most played champion the last two months or so, and I don't jungle. gg wingsofdeathx said it | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
On November 24 2012 05:09 Shiv. wrote: Appeal to authority is a weak way of debating. Pro players used ArP reds on AD carries for ages because it was THE BEST OMG BBQ, now they use 15 AD because everything else would be too scrubby ? ArP marks are still better if you're planning on trading a lot in lane, and many of the high level AD carries still run ArP marks depending on what champion they're planning and the match up. The irony would here would be how many, many posters have talked about how Chaox's argument for AD marks being better than ArP marks was flawed since the very beginnings of the popular switch to AD marks. You're trying to argue against an appeal to authority but the example you used is grounded by an implicit appeal to authority anyway. | ||
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vicariouscheese
United States589 Posts
On November 24 2012 05:09 Shiv. wrote: Appeal to authority is a weak way of debating. Pro players used ArP reds on AD carries for ages because it was THE BEST OMG BBQ, now they use 15 AD because everything else would be too scrubby ehhh it was more like support heals got nerfed, which caused more "early game" ad carries to get picked up + higher mobility carries for other reasons, which meant less farming bot until 3 items and then teamfight, so ad marks became better because of emphasis on early game, easier farming and trading. They will still say that arpen better for late game (which previously it was like, you don't need ad runes for early game because you won't die or have problems farming so just put these in for the extra 20 damage late game) and for trading and for certain champions (chaox likes to go arpen on graves according to phreak, draven does well with arpen as well because of how their abilities work). It's kind of how some ad's will go 19-11 now for early dueling and sacrifice that 1% damage late game But in general you're right, people generally just follow what they see top players do, and I do think some pros don't theory enough to pick up on things as fast as they could. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
On November 24 2012 05:20 vicariouscheese wrote: But in general you're right, people generally just follow what they see top players do, and I do think some pros don't theory enough to pick up on things as fast as they could. Which is gonna make early S3 fun as hell.  | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
His early game can be completely devastating though, probably one of the strongest gankers in the game, especially at level 2 (though it is a bit cheezy) | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
Falling off lategame applies to so many champs. Wickd says irelia sucks lategame, but most people here don't say irelia falls off lategame, it's just the transition to the AP and AD carry power periods. | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
When Froggen carries with Lee Sin that's usually how the games go. He starts rolling pretty early on and starts carrying by not allowing the enemy team get past the midgame unscathed. The games that I've seen him lose with Lee Sin it's when he gets screwed in lane or the enemy team doesn't get caught by him either due to Froggen misplaying or the enemy team outplaying him. To say that Lee Sin can't carry seems like a really disingenuous polemic that doesn't have much founding on reality (unless we are to consider Froggen as some kind of fantastical mirage). But it also seems more than obvious that Lee Sin does fall off in the lategame like many other bruisers, and worse than some. | ||
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shinarit
Hungary900 Posts
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Craton
United States17294 Posts
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
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OutlaW-
Czech Republic5053 Posts
On November 24 2012 05:38 koreasilver wrote: Also, with the Lee Sin debate, I think it's pretty apparent that Lee Sin does fall off late game, doesn't scale as strongly into the lategame as some other comparable "bruisers", but I feel that talking about merits of one of the supreme early game champions in the game (both in lane and in jungle) is a bit of a red herring. Now, I think that Outlaw's defense of Lee Sin by conjuring up some kind of lategame dream scenario where you are somehow able to get to the opposing carry with ease is pretty silly. But if you start rolling as Lee Sin then isn't it more than possible to carry the game by killing the enemy team from early on and not allowing them to reach a really farmed state? When Froggen carries with Lee Sin that's usually how the games go. He starts rolling pretty early on and starts carrying by not allowing the enemy team get past the midgame unscathed. The games that I've seen him lose with Lee Sin it's when he gets screwed in lane or the enemy team doesn't get caught by him either due to Froggen misplaying or the enemy team outplaying him. To say that Lee Sin can't carry seems like a really disingenuous polemic that doesn't have much founding on reality (unless we are to consider Froggen as some kind of fantastical mirage). But it also seems more than obvious that Lee Sin does fall off in the lategame like many other bruisers, and worse than some. The type of lee sin that you have in mind and that froggen plays is a completely different lee sin than from what I'm talking about. Basicalyl there are 2 ways to play lee. (3rd being jungler) You're talking about AD caster Lee who maxes Q first and goes damage items (BT, LW, maw, GA, your standard AD caster build) that lee sin is like a fire that burns extremely hot in the mid game (basically he's a fucking monster in terms of damage) but falls off late game very hard. I was talking about full tank Lee who maxes W first (in some match ups E) and then E, going 6 tanky items (only damage item sunfire cape) Just to clear up the confusion. Anyhow, here's exclusive camera footage of the wild beast known as hashinshit http://www.twitch.tv/hashinshin | ||
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
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