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On October 24 2012 19:41 StateAlchemist wrote:
dont know how people still dont understand that a game doesnt need to be really hard to be good or enjoyable by the majority.
and i'm pretty sure the same guys who are raging about mechanics and stuff play football ! :p
w/e, we have mantoss, we win.
well to be fair it is actually extremely important for a competitive game to have enough of a skill cap to allow for really amazing dominant players and a separation of skill (and style) between the elite and just regular players that you need to create a fun narrative and interesting and impressive play for the viewer.
Obviously Leagues far exceeds this, but there are games where despite obviously nobody hitting the "skill cap" (which is impossible in all but very simple turn based games) there is not enough of an achievable difference in the skill of good players, and pretty much anyone who knows what they are doing can take games off of anyone else. This really kills the game as a sport, because its pretty much impossible to maintain interest when nobody has an identifiable style or significant strengths/weaknesses to create watchable entertainment or hook new players with dreams of achieving something amazing and unique.
The argument isn't over skill cap, but at what level of achievable skill severe diminishing returns kick in.
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Cant believe I used to be one of these elitist who wasnt very vocal on the forums but always thougth to my self: Damn Im part of sc2, Sc2>>>all fuck lol and Dota. But with whats going on not only r/sc but in our general sc2 forums is just super retarded, just finished watching the ITG Vod and while Destiny was also wrong kinda joining the shoutfest, idra, incontrol and DjWheat just behaved like retards
stopped following pro sc2 for almost a year now, how are guys like incontrol and idra still relevant
While the ingame experience of LoL can be very toxic because people get easily frustrated sometimes I dont think the LoL community is as bad as people claim it to be.
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On October 24 2012 19:54 Dandel Ion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 19:43 TwoToneTerran wrote:On October 24 2012 19:38 Dandel Ion wrote:
You could probably make a pretty large behaviouristical study on the attitude the SC2 forums have towards LoL.
The just lash out on lol because they have PTSD from being told the same things about their game from the BW ppl.
It's like kids that get hit by their parents are also very likely to hit their own kids.
BW abused SC2, and now they need to punch LoL to feel validated.
So conversely, this is all BW's fault, even tho BW ppl almost never flamed lol, ever. BW didn't really abuse SC2. The vast majority of the BW population here was incredibly hyped about SC2 and most of us got in on the Beta. When the game was released proper, the forums got fucking swarmed with, well, you know what happens when communities get too large on the internet -- the quality of discourse goes right down the shitter. After that it was all bitter feelings when a lot of the BW dudes didn't find SC2 to their liking (like me, though I did my best to stay away from SC2 topics). I sometimes slightly exaggerate in my posts. Deal with it.
There is a huge amount of irony in it though, that SC2 is throwing the same arguments against lol, that some BW people were throwing at SC2.
I guess a true BW elitist sees some sort of karmic retribution in this. I think it's sad because I like both games and I see no reason for this fight. SC2 isn't declining because of lol. I think lol is just filling a void that SC2 left, because people like to watch other people play computer games and not just as a competition, but got bored with SC2. Look for example at all the Minecraft/Let's play stuff.
I also think that no matter what, there will be huge influx and an upturn once HotS is released. The casuals will be back as soon as Blizz turns on their marketing machine. It might decline much faster this time, but there will be a renaissance for sure, despite all the complains about the competitiveness of the game... People still remember the first GSL? Compared to BW... I think Day9 said at some point that he pitied his brother for having to cast that.
I also think the pros need to be careful about putting to much pressure on Blizz, the more they influence HotS, the more it will feel like WoL I think. But for the game to succeed it needs to feel fresh and different, otherwise people will just play through it and go... Ah ok WoL 2.0, saw Kerrigans boobs, now lets move on. That might be a wrong sentiment, but I always think that a large group of people will usually push for some sort of status quo, while it takes individuals to create sth. truly unique. You can't create art by consensus.
Wow... I'm way off topic... I'll better stop here.
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Korea (South)11232 Posts
Why did DJ Wheat behave like incontrol and idra too?
I thought because of his appearence at the World Finals he was pro lol?
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On sC switching: When I saw the topic I was, for some reason, really convinced he'd be an ADC kinda guy.
ESFI article says he plays mid and AD carry.
I'm 50% awesome now.
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Korea (South)11232 Posts
OMG that teemo penta kill
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United States47024 Posts
On October 24 2012 20:03 sob3k wrote:
The argument isn't over skill cap, but at what level of achievable skill severe diminishing returns kick in.
That's arguably more dependent on the playerbase than on the mechanics of the game in many cases though. Naturally when knowledge of a game and it's mechanics are highly developed, there's much more to learn and the skill at the highest end is going to be more developed. Game A might not be an inherently deeper game than game B, but it can appear as such if game A has 10 years of knowledge and playerbase development behind it, simply as the amount of stuff you have to learn and perfect to compete at a base level is much higher, which in turn makes learning the game and improving your play seem like a deeper and longer experience.
This is part of why I don't like arguments of "X player in game A was able to get to Y level in game B". If a player in a predecessor game (be it BW, DotA, etc.) is able to perform extremely well at a high level in another game (be it LoL, SC2, etc.), that speaks more to the "high-level" players in the latter game just being bad, not to the game being inherently easier.
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On October 24 2012 20:11 AsnSensation wrote:
Cant believe I used to be one of these elitist who wasnt very vocal on the forums but always thougth to my self: Damn Im part of sc2, Sc2>>>all fuck lol and Dota. But with whats going on not only r/sc but in our general sc2 forums is just super retarded, just finished watching the ITG Vod and while Destiny was also wrong kinda joining the shoutfest, idra, incontrol and DjWheat just behaved like retards
stopped following pro sc2 for almost a year now, how are guys like incontrol and idra still relevant
While the ingame experience of LoL can be very toxic because people get easily frustrated sometimes I dont think the LoL community is as bad as people claim it to be.
The forum/subreddit community of LoL is vastly better than SC2, which is pretty odd, considering that normally the bigger the community the worse it gets.
I've been doing my liquibets and shit, but this kind of stuff just makes me flip the bird to the SC2 pro-scene and just watch LoL. The drama and shit-talking of LoL is just too much. It's not just the game not being fun that turned me away from SC2. It's the community too. The NA scene is the worst at this. Especially the figureheads of EG.
I loved watching GSL and the Western tournaments. Thorzain's DH win, HuK in Code S, NesTea vs sC, Foxer vs Kyrix, I've seen it all live. It's sad that I won't watch such moments anymore, but I'm not willing to trade those instances of glory for the drama generator that SC2 has become.
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On October 24 2012 20:03 sob3k wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 19:41 StateAlchemist wrote:
dont know how people still dont understand that a game doesnt need to be really hard to be good or enjoyable by the majority.
and i'm pretty sure the same guys who are raging about mechanics and stuff play football ! :p
w/e, we have mantoss, we win. well to be fair it is actually extremely important for a competitive game to have enough of a skill cap to allow for really amazing dominant players and a separation of skill (and style) between the elite and just regular players that you need to create a fun narrative and interesting and impressive play for the viewer. Obviously Leagues far exceeds this, but there are games where despite obviously nobody hitting the "skill cap" (which is impossible in all but very simple turn based games) there is not enough of an achievable difference in the skill of good players, and pretty much anyone who knows what they are doing can take games off of anyone else. This really kills the game as a sport, because its pretty much impossible to maintain interest when nobody has an identifiable style or significant strengths/weaknesses to create watchable entertainment or hook new players with dreams of achieving something amazing and unique. The argument isn't over skill cap, but at what level of achievable skill severe diminishing returns kick in.
yup, i completely agree about the skill cap and how you attract viewers with the impressive plays that pro can pull off.
My point was just that if you want to attract a lot of people your game has to be easy. And i dont mean easy in a bad way, just the fact that the more people can understand it and actually play and enjoy the game, the better.
If you had to learn how to build every champion in a specific way in every match up possible and if you had to know how to last hit perfectly well to play the game, then LoL would be bad and boring for a lot.
Lots of people in normals have completely retarded builds and cant even go to 50cs in 15min, does it matter in the fun part ? no, hell you can still win the game by going ap vayne ! It makes no sense and yet some of my friends feel like there is the competitive part of the game going on, even if they're like lvl 20 and have no clue about what's going on.
Add up the fact that its a team game and you can chill with your friends, and it helps even more.
But like i said, i've seen some people complaining about how easy LoL is compared to games like sc2, its true to a certain extent but does it make the gaming experience better ? i dont think so.
Is it even more competitive ? thats a personnal opinion, but i'd say they both are.
To be honest i dont even see why people are getting mad about the issue, i mean ok you can be a part of "your" community and feel proud about your game. but being actually mad for a game...
I was taking the exemple of football because its a team game, its really easy to understand and you can play it without really knowing what you're doing and having tons of fun but its still really competitive because its hard to master, you have to practice a lot to get better. That's a successful team game.
Sc2 is like your 1v1 duel between 2 guys, you could compare it to chess for some reason, with boxing for others. (hell playing chess without knowing the rules is... hard? ^^)
For obvious reasons, team games are more popular than duels. I think thats why its a shame that the teamgame part of sc2 is non existent, blizzard only values 1v1. 
sorry guise my english sucks and i'm tired >.<
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just read some pages from the inside the game thread and found this haha, wtf I when i was playing sc2 casually 1-2 hours a day i was still mid masters and isnt he supposed to be a professional with a good contract under EG haha
+ Show Spoiler +
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Meh, the SC2 community is shit. We know that now.
Back to talking about LoL plz.
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On October 24 2012 20:38 Dandel Ion wrote:
Meh, the SC2 community is shit. We know that now.
Back to talking about LoL plz.
inc gp/10 discussion
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On October 24 2012 20:40 StateAlchemist wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 20:38 Dandel Ion wrote:
Meh, the SC2 community is shit. We know that now.
Back to talking about LoL plz. inc gp/10 discussion
bring it on
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Wow just played a kinda trollish game as Ashe maxing Hawkshot before volley and having tf mid. Had nunu support so I just had to farm farm farm, 7 extra gold per minion lol and since I had nunu support, finishing IE+PD was already real terror for the enemy team
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On October 24 2012 20:42 Dandel Ion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 20:40 StateAlchemist wrote:On October 24 2012 20:38 Dandel Ion wrote:
Meh, the SC2 community is shit. We know that now.
Back to talking about LoL plz. inc gp/10 discussion bring it on
i'm not manly enough
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On October 24 2012 20:45 StateAlchemist wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 20:42 Dandel Ion wrote:On October 24 2012 20:40 StateAlchemist wrote:On October 24 2012 20:38 Dandel Ion wrote:
Meh, the SC2 community is shit. We know that now.
Back to talking about LoL plz. inc gp/10 discussion bring it on i'm not manly enough
Implying gp/10 is only for Pantheon and J4?
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On October 24 2012 20:46 Doctorbeat wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 20:45 StateAlchemist wrote:On October 24 2012 20:42 Dandel Ion wrote:On October 24 2012 20:40 StateAlchemist wrote:On October 24 2012 20:38 Dandel Ion wrote:
Meh, the SC2 community is shit. We know that now.
Back to talking about LoL plz. inc gp/10 discussion bring it on i'm not manly enough Implying gp/10 is only for Pantheon and J4?
Averice blade man mode
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Meh if SC2 doesn't want to be a part of e-sports then thats up to SC2. I am disappointed to hear DJwheat apparently unable to keep an open mind though. I had respect for Brood War as the most difficult game in e-sports, I'm happy to respect SC2 as the new "most difficult game", after all LoL is pretty piss-easy but hey, apparently this is a one-horse show.
EDIT: woah, apparently that took me a while to post, ok will move on.
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On October 24 2012 20:46 Doctorbeat wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 20:45 StateAlchemist wrote:On October 24 2012 20:42 Dandel Ion wrote:On October 24 2012 20:40 StateAlchemist wrote:On October 24 2012 20:38 Dandel Ion wrote:
Meh, the SC2 community is shit. We know that now.
Back to talking about LoL plz. inc gp/10 discussion bring it on i'm not manly enough Implying gp/10 is only for Pantheon and J4?
Hey, I have doubts whether Mantheon and Jarman benefit more from ad runes or arpen runes. Can you help me out?
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On October 24 2012 20:24 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 20:03 sob3k wrote:
The argument isn't over skill cap, but at what level of achievable skill severe diminishing returns kick in.
That's arguably more dependent on the playerbase than on the mechanics of the game in many cases though. Naturally when knowledge of a game and it's mechanics are highly developed, there's much more to learn and the skill at the highest end is going to be more developed. Game A might not be an inherently deeper game than game B, but it can appear as such if game A has 10 years of knowledge and playerbase development behind it, simply as the amount of stuff you have to learn and perfect to compete at a base level is much higher, which in turn makes learning the game and improving your play seem like a deeper and longer experience. This is part of why I don't like arguments of "X player in game A was able to get to Y level in game B". If a player in a predecessor game (be it BW, DotA, etc.) is able to perform extremely well at a high level in another game (be it LoL, SC2, etc.), that speaks more to the "high-level" players in the latter game just being bad, not to the game being inherently easier.
In my opinion there are two aspects to computer games as a sport. There is the "mind part" which is similar to poker/chess and there is the "athletic part" which is related to your reaction time and basically finger dexterity. People like to call that mechanics, although I think it is confusing, because good mechanics also require to have a good plan in the first place to execute, but semantics are not really important here.
Games will fall on different ends of this spectrum. Fast-based shooters like teamfortress obviously require less mind and more athletic while a turn-based strategy game will require almost only mind. This by the way is not either or. A game can be extremely challenging from an atheletic point of view and still require a lot of the mind part. Games which require neither tend to be shitty/dumb games, although these games are hugely popular (FarmWhateverVille).
You can't quantitatively measure the mind part but you can evaluate to a certain extent the athletic part by measuring how many input actions are required in certain amount of time in order to compete (APM in SC2/BW). This is not a 100% reliable metric though since smashing a single button repeatedly is less complex than executing a sequence of commands requiring several keys.
From that point of view I think one can argue that BW is a more athletic game as it seems to require more APM at a high level than SC2, although I've never seen a rigorous study of this. The question is also how relevant that really is. At the end of the day that doesn't say anything about the competitiveness of the game, because that is as Yango pointed out shaped by the player pool.
Comparing Lol/Dota to SC2/BW in this regard will also be complicated I think because in Lol/Dota timing is much more important overall than in SC2. And yes I'm aware of how critical timing is when it comes to placing forcefields for example. And to avoid confusion I don't mean build order timings, but actually hitting the right button at exactly the right moment.
I think the athletic part transfers extremely well between games, having quick reaction times and being able to execute complex keyboard sequences is relevant in all strategy games. The mind part though is very game specific and apart from maybe the approach on how to analyze a game, there is little transfer in my opinion.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/iEUXh.jpg)
