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On October 04 2012 02:41 thenexusp wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2012 01:37 WhiteDog wrote:
My main problem with itemisation in LOL is that it's too obvious for mid and bot players. They really need to take the hat (rabaddon) off the game and add some ap items for diversity. I really hate the fact that whatever the ap you play, you will always ends up buying the rabaddon. +30% ap is pretty much the only stat other than CDR that stacks multiplicatively with AP so it becomes pretty required if you want to scale at all into the lategame. Trying to avoid the hat would be like trying to build an AD carry without buying crit chance. The only solution I can see is to make multiple items give +% AP, but make them not stack with each other or something.
Balance is in some ways reminiscent of, though not exactly the same as, a zero sum game. Let me give an example.
At one point an upcoming patch for WoW featured a new +50 stamina enchantment. It never saw the light of day, and many players asked why. Blizzard answered by noting that they have to balance bosses under the assumption that players have all enchants/gems/potions available to them. In practical terms, adding an new survivability enchant would also necessitate an increase in boss strength. In the end the players wouldn't have gained anything except another enchant to obtain; in terms of survivability relative to the boss nothing would have changed.
Deathcap can be viewed in a similar manner. AP champions, by simple necessity, are balanced with Deathcap taken into consideration. The existence of Deathcap therefore creates limits on everything from AP ratios to the strength of other AP items. Removing Deathcap wouldn't happen in a vacuum, but would have to involve substantial changes to maintain something close to the current state of balance.
Whether removing Deathcap is the correct path or not is a matter of debate, but the topic is more complicated than "without Deathcap AP champions can't scale into the lategame".
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On October 04 2012 02:49 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2012 02:41 thenexusp wrote:On October 04 2012 01:37 WhiteDog wrote:
My main problem with itemisation in LOL is that it's too obvious for mid and bot players. They really need to take the hat (rabaddon) off the game and add some ap items for diversity. I really hate the fact that whatever the ap you play, you will always ends up buying the rabaddon. +30% ap is pretty much the only stat other than CDR that stacks multiplicatively with AP so it becomes pretty required if you want to scale at all into the lategame. Trying to avoid the hat would be like trying to build an AD carry without buying crit chance. The only solution I can see is to make multiple items give +% AP, but make them not stack with each other or something. Why would you ever buy a +% ap item other than the one that gives the most +% ap? They just truthfully imo need to scrap like most items and redo them all.
Because one gives +30%, the other gives an active with +50% for x seconds
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On October 04 2012 03:03 TheKefka wrote:
Can someone explain to me what was the point of the stealth remake when every champion with stealth they put out since than has a leap or and a massive MS buff,so even when you see them coming in range it's already too late lol.
fixed.
Rengar can move like 2000 range at 500 MSpd in stealth and then jump at you, so ridiculous.
Also is it just me or has the rate of stealth champs increased dramatically ever since Riot said they don't like the stealth mechanic all that much?
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On October 04 2012 02:36 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2012 02:03 WhiteDog wrote:On October 04 2012 01:55 Implenia wrote:Sorry I posted it because of this guy: On October 04 2012 00:17 bokeevboke wrote:
why dota 2 has a delayed response time? I mean when you command a unit, it moves only after 0.5 sec, which is very irritating. I did some research, people say it was inherited from wc3 engine. But isn't it bad for newcomers. I mean there aren't any "new people" in dota 2, basically old dota players transfered and thats it. I think its one of the reasons why dota 2 isn't so popular. On October 04 2012 00:47 bokeevboke wrote:
I said dota 2 is not popular because many of my online mates tried it and left it coz it was too complex (learning curve). I'm definitely sure they would like it if they learned it more. But the fact that first impression made them stay away tells me many people will react similarly.
Also, I don't think its wise to make delays similar to old dota, for a very simple reason: Old dota was played mostly on Lan (or within same city) and its not that hard to time your last hits, but dota 2 is online and any tiny spike can fuckup everything.
User was warned for posting ignorantly On October 04 2012 00:57 bokeevboke wrote:On October 04 2012 00:54 LoLAdriankat wrote:On October 04 2012 00:53 bokeevboke wrote:On October 04 2012 00:50 Numy wrote:On October 04 2012 00:47 bokeevboke wrote:On October 04 2012 00:38 Firebolt145 wrote:On October 04 2012 00:28 bokeevboke wrote:
[quote]
I know about turnrate. I checked it. Delay exists even when you move forward.
Also, what I hate about dota 2 is that when you last hit, you have to consider the swing before hit which is usually 0.33 sec. Thats why most new players cant last hit properly. I understand that these are all important aspects of "Dota" and valve tries to stay with it. But c'mon, its not appealing for casual players. There is no way game will be popular if such difficult (frustrating) mechanics exist in it. Why are they scared of improving game mechanics? I think they should focus more on strategic/teamwork aspects of the game. Because dota players enjoy those mechanics. The minute difference between heroes even in attack/cast animations is vital in game balance. For example, in the next patch coming (6.75), one of the most popular heroes called Leshrac has one of his skills changed from being an instant cast to requiring a cast time of ?0.25 seconds. That doesn't seem like much to a newbie to the scene but for many people it is a considerable nerf. What's wrong if new players can't last hit properly? It takes a while for them to learn how to last hit, that's fine with me. Not every new player in the world wants to be spoonfed the easiest game in the world. 'There is no way game will be popular if such difficult (frustrating) mechanics exist in it.' It is still in beta yet The International had 500,000 concurrent viewers. It is already popular. I said dota 2 is not popular because many of my online mates tried it and left it coz it was too complex (learning curve). I'm definitely sure they would like it if they learned it more. But the fact that first impression made them stay away tells me many people will react similarly. Also, I don't think its wise to make delays similar to old dota, for a very simple reason: Old dota was played mostly on Lan (or within same city) and its not that hard to time your last hits, but dota 2 is online and any tiny spike can fuckup everything. Dota was played online.... just stop trying to flamebait. WTF?! I am not flambaiting and I am not trolling. Stop it please or gtfo. Why should he stop? It's pretty apparent that you're grasping at straws here. LoL, what exacltly qualifies me as a flamebaiter? Care to explain? Why I thought Dota 2 is not popular. Look at viewcount of games here twitch.tv.Its my last post in this thread. bye. Just for the people who say that Dota player are always bashing lol and not vice versa  . So thanks to lol for keeping people like him away from dota. Cheers guys! What the hell ? I don't see him saying LOL is better than dota2 so why is it relevant to post it here ? You're just quoting a guy who has some frustration against dota2 because he seems bad at the game and not improving, it has nothing to do with LOL and the fact that you feel the urge to come here posting for such a meaningful reason really says a lot on dota2's community behavior toward the LOL community. lol if you read the DotA 2 general discussion, that flamebait went on for like 3 pages. LoL General Discussion is used to it enough that everyone ignored him after half a page, haha.
He clearly wasn't trying hard enough
RAWR IM JAKIRO AND DOTA ANIMATIONS ARE CLEARLY SUPERIOR TO LEAGUE OF LEGENDS
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/PCJGi.png)
WAIT WHAT'S THAT BEHIND ME
...
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/WfUDO.png)
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Disclaimer: I have never played DotA, and I have picked up that what I suggest below might exist within DotA.
What does everyone think about items with minimal or no stats, but strong actives? For instance, what if there was an item that had an active which let you reset all your cooldowns...say once every 4 minutes? What about an item that increases the range of your auto-attacks and skills by 50% for a few seconds?
Sure, a cooldown reset sounds extremely OP on certain champs, but say it costs 1600 gold - that Fiddlesticks traded a NLR for it, or that Amumu bought it at the expense of a giants belt and null magic mantle.
Is this way too crazy? It seems like it could be balanced via cost and cooldown to a certain extent.
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United States47024 Posts
Of all the items I'd want to port from DotA, Refresher Orb is the least likely because the item is fucking worthless in 90% of cases even in DotA. It's an awkward design to have even in the context of DotA, and conceptually, porting something that's not well tweaked there makes no sense.
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On October 04 2012 03:35 TheYango wrote:
Of all the items I'd want to port from DotA, Refresher Orb is the least likely because the item is fucking worthless in 90% of cases even in DotA. It's an awkward design to have even in the context of DotA, and conceptually, porting something that's not well tweaked there makes no sense.
Warlock with Necronomicon and Refresher Orb stomps teamfights though. 5v5? SAY HELLO TO MY ARMY! Also double stuns from the ult and the huge ass aoe aura. DotAs version of Tibbers.
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On October 04 2012 03:31 StrigHT wrote:
Disclaimer: I have never played DotA, and I have picked up that what I suggest below might exist within DotA.
What does everyone think about items with minimal or no stats, but strong actives? For instance, what if there was an item that had an active which let you reset all your cooldowns...say once every 4 minutes? What about an item that increases the range of your auto-attacks and skills by 50% for a few seconds?
Sure, a cooldown reset sounds extremely OP on certain champs, but say it costs 1600 gold - that Fiddlesticks traded a NLR for it, or that Amumu bought it at the expense of a giants belt and null magic mantle.
Is this way too crazy? It seems like it could be balanced via cost and cooldown to a certain extent.
I would gladly trade 1600 gold for double Amumu ultimate. It would be the most obvious buy ever. Same goes for every single high burst high cooldown caster. Double LB Gragas Kat Annie etc combo means you're dead no matter what. Who cares about 80 AP when it's only worth 20% of your base damage?
For example, Annie's combo deals about 1000 damage at lvl 16. At an AP ratio of 2.5-3.0 (tibbers AoE hard to factor in of course) you need 300-400 AP to deal another 1000 damage. Of course you would rather take 80 AP less and an extra 1000 damage instead.
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Good ol' Tidehunters who rush Refresher...
"I got Refresher for double ravage!"
Uses ravage, then refresh.
"I don't have enough mana for the second ravage!"
If I could only pick one item from DotA to be in League just to see what happens, it would be TP Scroll.
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I'd buy a reset cooldowns item on udyr when I'm ahead because I'm a fucking beast.
Seriously It'd be broken as fuck on karthus
Actually It'd be broken as fuck in general
-malphite
-galio
-poppy
-cass
-zilean
-mumu
-sona
and that's only the ult reset. maybe if it only reset non ults? Would be abused by shit that uses QWE to burst though. e.g leblanc or kass something.
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On October 04 2012 03:40 Celial wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2012 03:35 TheYango wrote:
Of all the items I'd want to port from DotA, Refresher Orb is the least likely because the item is fucking worthless in 90% of cases even in DotA. It's an awkward design to have even in the context of DotA, and conceptually, porting something that's not well tweaked there makes no sense. Warlock with Necronomicon and Refresher Orb stomps teamfights though. 5v5? SAY HELLO TO MY ARMY! Also double stuns from the ult and the huge ass aoe aura. DotAs version of Tibbers.
you forgot with Agahnims and the massive cleave warlock summon has over tibbers......a good warlock terrifies me to no end
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I want them to port BKB to LoL just to see the mayhem it would cause.
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On October 04 2012 03:31 StrigHT wrote:
Disclaimer: I have never played DotA, and I have picked up that what I suggest below might exist within DotA.
What does everyone think about items with minimal or no stats, but strong actives? For instance, what if there was an item that had an active which let you reset all your cooldowns...say once every 4 minutes? What about an item that increases the range of your auto-attacks and skills by 50% for a few seconds?
Sure, a cooldown reset sounds extremely OP on certain champs, but say it costs 1600 gold - that Fiddlesticks traded a NLR for it, or that Amumu bought it at the expense of a giants belt and null magic mantle.
Is this way too crazy? It seems like it could be balanced via cost and cooldown to a certain extent.
Who needs a giants belt when you can keep the enemy team aoe stunned for like 5 seconds? is that even a question? Not to mention fiddles ult at 16 with no ap does 1600 damage(before magic resist) not that id buy a refresher item on fiddles since the chances of channeling another ult in the middle of their team is low in the first place
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On October 04 2012 03:45 TheKefka wrote:
I want them to port BKB to LoL just to see the mayhem it would cause.
I too would want to see Karthus never played again.
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United States47024 Posts
On October 04 2012 03:45 Kyhron wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2012 03:40 Celial wrote:On October 04 2012 03:35 TheYango wrote:
Of all the items I'd want to port from DotA, Refresher Orb is the least likely because the item is fucking worthless in 90% of cases even in DotA. It's an awkward design to have even in the context of DotA, and conceptually, porting something that's not well tweaked there makes no sense. Warlock with Necronomicon and Refresher Orb stomps teamfights though. 5v5? SAY HELLO TO MY ARMY! Also double stuns from the ult and the huge ass aoe aura. DotAs version of Tibbers. you forgot with Agahnims and the massive cleave warlock summon has over tibbers......a good warlock terrifies me to no end
Nobody farms a Warlock that hard, and even if you do, you get team items.
Refresher is only relevant in those cases where you're stomping so hard that you can afford to buy 3500 gold worth of components items that give you virtually NOTHING useful, and not get punished for it. This is true on virtually ALL heroes that consider the item, which is why it's such a terrible design. If you made it give useful stats in buildup it would be disgustingly good, but balancing it by having shit stats makes it terrible because you get punished so hard during the buildup or when its on CD.
On October 04 2012 03:49 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2012 03:45 TheKefka wrote:
I want them to port BKB to LoL just to see the mayhem it would cause.
I too would want to see Karthus never played again.
Actually, Karthus is one of the heroes that stands to benefit the most from BKB being in the game.
Who cares that you can't kill people with ultimate--your first BKB teamfight would be absolutely nuts.
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Looks like BKB would be legit on nasus instead of trinity force
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On October 04 2012 03:44 Slayer91 wrote:
I'd buy a reset cooldowns item on udyr when I'm ahead because I'm a fucking beast.
Seriously It'd be broken as fuck on karthus
Actually It'd be broken as fuck in general
-malphite
-galio
-poppy
-cass
-zilean
-mumu
-sona
and that's only the ult reset. maybe if it only reset non ults? Would be abused by shit that uses QWE to burst though. e.g leblanc or kass something.
Well it sounds broken but then when you look at it's stats and price tag it's just worthless 90% of the time. Think that's what Yango is getting at.
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On October 04 2012 03:50 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2012 03:45 Kyhron wrote:On October 04 2012 03:40 Celial wrote:On October 04 2012 03:35 TheYango wrote:
Of all the items I'd want to port from DotA, Refresher Orb is the least likely because the item is fucking worthless in 90% of cases even in DotA. It's an awkward design to have even in the context of DotA, and conceptually, porting something that's not well tweaked there makes no sense. Warlock with Necronomicon and Refresher Orb stomps teamfights though. 5v5? SAY HELLO TO MY ARMY! Also double stuns from the ult and the huge ass aoe aura. DotAs version of Tibbers. you forgot with Agahnims and the massive cleave warlock summon has over tibbers......a good warlock terrifies me to no end Nobody farms a Warlock that hard, and even if you do, you get team items. Refresher is only relevant in those cases where you're stomping so hard that you can afford to buy 3500 gold worth of components items that give you virtually NOTHING useful, and not get punished for it. This is true on virtually ALL heroes that consider the item, which is why it's such a terrible design. If you made it give useful stats in buildup it would be disgustingly good, but balancing it by having shit stats makes it terrible because you get punished so hard during the buildup or when its on CD. Show nested quote +On October 04 2012 03:49 wei2coolman wrote:On October 04 2012 03:45 TheKefka wrote:
I want them to port BKB to LoL just to see the mayhem it would cause.
I too would want to see Karthus never played again. Actually, Karthus is one of the heroes that stands to benefit the most from BKB being in the game. Who cares that you can't kill people with ultimate--your first BKB teamfight would be absolutely nuts.
I think BKB would be super effective against karthus, considering he does continous amounts of damage over a good chunk of time, so a bruiser could essentially dive against Karthus with all his Q's and his AoE, and take absolutely no damage.
Karthus with BKB would be pretty ridic as well, now that you mention it.
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Probably on malph mumu and zil you don't care about the price your item scaling isn't that amazing anyways.
Wait magic immunity is CC immunity or all spells? All spells would be retarded just buy BKB and randuins and rape everything
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United States47024 Posts
Porting BKB has the potential to simply just wreck the AP/AD carry archetypes unless also accompanied by an appropriate revamp to their itemization. One of the major effects of BKB is that any diving threat having the possibility to be come unpeelable for 5-10 seconds is that it forces ranged carries to itemize much more similarly to melees. This in turn means their multiplicative scaling is kept in check by the necessity of buying survivability itemization.
LoL AP/AD carry itemization has been balanced for years now around the possibility of AP/AD carries being able to build fully glass cannon for the majority of the game. Look at the equivalent items to IE/etc. in DotA--Buriza and Desolator are generally worthless compared to their LoL counterparts because an item that commits so much gold purely to offense is an enormous liability.
On October 04 2012 03:54 Numy wrote:
Well it sounds broken but then when you look at it's stats and price tag it's just worthless 90% of the time. Think that's what Yango is getting at.
Exactly. It's just too damn hard to get the balance point right. The item's been in DotA for YEARS and Icefrog hasn't found a way to pin it somewhere sensible between the points of "OP" and "worthless" because of how much the power of the item swings between buildup and completion, and how much its value changes when it's on or off CD.
On October 04 2012 03:56 Slayer91 wrote:
Probably on malph mumu and zil you don't care about the price your item scaling isn't that amazing anyways.
Wait magic immunity is CC immunity or all spells? All spells would be retarded just buy BKB and randuins and rape everything
Immunity to most forms of CC and magic damage. Generally ults have one or more effects that go through it though (e.g. if ported to LoL, all suppression effects still function through it).
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EPT
