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On September 18 2012 06:37 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 06:28 Shiv. wrote:On September 18 2012 06:01 wei2coolman wrote:
Biggest problem with Trist is how unresponsive her jump is.
Even with the supposed "e" problems, the way bot lane works, pushing is good 90% of the time, to deny enemy CS, that isn't even that big of a core issue on tristana. If you watch a lot of current bot lane meta in tourneys (where there's a regular 2v2 lane), pushing botlane is regular strat (assuming river is well warded). The problem is the way her jump works, even if you look at Corki's usage of his jump, it's either as an escape or as a gap closer for his gatling gun, but in either usage the valkarie is rarely a "source" of damage. The jump is completely counter-intuitive on Trist, it forces bad plays to be made from players because people think it does more damage than it actually does. Literally 3 posts before this you claimed her biggest issue is her steroid. What the fuck is wrong with you. Also, solo Q != tourneys. And no, you don't want to push 90% of the time in solo Q. Also, the problem with her jump isn't that it deals damage, it's that it's not actually a jump. No one forces you to use it for damage lol. If you decide to copycat people's thoughts, at least understand them beforehand. Her Q steroid is comparable to graves' but hers doesnt reset, if hers had the same CD scaling on it as graves i honestly think she'd be the most retarded ad carry. Her range alone is the mosts ridiculous thing, but her AS boost is so short and doesnt refreshi t really harms her usefulness. I mean she doesnt have an E like corkis or graves Q, no bullshit AS slow like ezreals W, so i think if you reworked her E into something like that, or maybe made it frontloaded instead of a dot she might be a bit better
I've always felt that the DoT on trist's E is really unintuitive. Why doesn't my big cannonball do any damage? I guess he's on fire or something
With Riot gradually making DoTs into frontloaded damages (e.g. Sona's ult) I feel like Trist's E could use the same treatment.
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how did we go from 2 pages of talking about Riot overbalancing the game to people making balance suggestions on AD carries of all things
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Trist is sort of unique in that she's a sort of early/midgame burst hero which she can use to snowball later with a great lategame which isn't the sort of standard ad carry than you can pick early into a generic teamcomp so I think she has a place but it's just you need a good spot to pick trist I suppose but she could become FoTM easily.
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On September 18 2012 06:41 Shiv. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 06:37 arb wrote:On September 18 2012 06:28 Shiv. wrote:On September 18 2012 06:01 wei2coolman wrote:
Biggest problem with Trist is how unresponsive her jump is.
Even with the supposed "e" problems, the way bot lane works, pushing is good 90% of the time, to deny enemy CS, that isn't even that big of a core issue on tristana. If you watch a lot of current bot lane meta in tourneys (where there's a regular 2v2 lane), pushing botlane is regular strat (assuming river is well warded). The problem is the way her jump works, even if you look at Corki's usage of his jump, it's either as an escape or as a gap closer for his gatling gun, but in either usage the valkarie is rarely a "source" of damage. The jump is completely counter-intuitive on Trist, it forces bad plays to be made from players because people think it does more damage than it actually does. Literally 3 posts before this you claimed her biggest issue is her steroid. What the fuck is wrong with you. Also, solo Q != tourneys. And no, you don't want to push 90% of the time in solo Q. Also, the problem with her jump isn't that it deals damage, it's that it's not actually a jump. No one forces you to use it for damage lol. If you decide to copycat people's thoughts, at least understand them beforehand. Her Q steroid is comparable to graves' but hers doesnt reset, if hers had the same CD scaling on it as graves i honestly think she'd be the most retarded ad carry. Her range alone is the mosts ridiculous thing, but her AS boost is so short and doesnt refreshi t really harms her usefulness. I mean she doesnt have an E like corkis or graves Q, no bullshit AS slow like ezreals W, so i think if you reworked her E into something like that, or maybe made it frontloaded instead of a dot she might be a bit better But then again, she has like twice the range of Graves come late game, and once you have IE/BT/LW/PD, steroids aren't as important any more (compared to early and mid game) because you melt everything anyway. Her late game already is ridiculously good, the problem is getting there, and I agree that changing or at least adjusting her E would be a good starting point to strenghten her mid game.
Her Q may not need to scale off attacks like graves, but making her E frontloaded would be a change that imo could propel her to a really good place. Realistically now her W(her main nuke) is hard to use since eating 3 bullets from buckshot, phos bomb and all of a gatling gun isnt really what you wanna be doing botlane. When you get her ultimate its not nearly as bad, but still trying to trade with any of the big 3 early leads to some pretty bad results.
Yeah her lategame is absolutely brutal, but her getting completely shit on by everything in midgame is just blah esp since shes easily my favorite ADC to play -_-
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If you're going to buff any aspect of Trist's kit, you're going to nerf some other aspect.
If you want to make W "smoother" then you nerf her damage. If you want to make W do more damage (lolwtf?) then you nerf her Q and E. If you want to make E do more damage, then you nerf her Q and W.
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On September 18 2012 06:55 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 06:41 Shiv. wrote:On September 18 2012 06:37 arb wrote:On September 18 2012 06:28 Shiv. wrote:On September 18 2012 06:01 wei2coolman wrote:
Biggest problem with Trist is how unresponsive her jump is.
Even with the supposed "e" problems, the way bot lane works, pushing is good 90% of the time, to deny enemy CS, that isn't even that big of a core issue on tristana. If you watch a lot of current bot lane meta in tourneys (where there's a regular 2v2 lane), pushing botlane is regular strat (assuming river is well warded). The problem is the way her jump works, even if you look at Corki's usage of his jump, it's either as an escape or as a gap closer for his gatling gun, but in either usage the valkarie is rarely a "source" of damage. The jump is completely counter-intuitive on Trist, it forces bad plays to be made from players because people think it does more damage than it actually does. Literally 3 posts before this you claimed her biggest issue is her steroid. What the fuck is wrong with you. Also, solo Q != tourneys. And no, you don't want to push 90% of the time in solo Q. Also, the problem with her jump isn't that it deals damage, it's that it's not actually a jump. No one forces you to use it for damage lol. If you decide to copycat people's thoughts, at least understand them beforehand. Her Q steroid is comparable to graves' but hers doesnt reset, if hers had the same CD scaling on it as graves i honestly think she'd be the most retarded ad carry. Her range alone is the mosts ridiculous thing, but her AS boost is so short and doesnt refreshi t really harms her usefulness. I mean she doesnt have an E like corkis or graves Q, no bullshit AS slow like ezreals W, so i think if you reworked her E into something like that, or maybe made it frontloaded instead of a dot she might be a bit better But then again, she has like twice the range of Graves come late game, and once you have IE/BT/LW/PD, steroids aren't as important any more (compared to early and mid game) because you melt everything anyway. Her late game already is ridiculously good, the problem is getting there, and I agree that changing or at least adjusting her E would be a good starting point to strenghten her mid game. Her Q may not need to scale off attacks like graves, but making her E frontloaded would be a change that imo could propel her to a really good place. Realistically now her W(her main nuke) is hard to use since eating 3 bullets from buckshot, phos bomb and all of a gatling gun isnt really what you wanna be doing botlane. When you get her ultimate its not nearly as bad, but still trying to trade with any of the big 3 early leads to some pretty bad results. Yeah her lategame is absolutely brutal, but her getting completely shit on by everything in midgame is just blah esp since shes easily my favorite ADC to play -_-
I feel you - Trist was the first champion I ever played and I wish I could make her work right now, but I'm just too bad. The /ff at 20 mentality in SoloQ doesn't really help either.
On September 18 2012 06:59 Craton wrote:
If you're going to buff any aspect of Trist's kit, you're going to nerf some other aspect.
If you want to make W "smoother" then you nerf her damage. If you want to make W do more damage (lolwtf?) then you nerf her Q and E. If you want to make E do more damage, then you nerf her Q and W.
care to elaborate? I don't get how, say, making her E do frontload damage weakens the effectiveness of Q as a steroid and W as an escape. Honest question, not dicking around.
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Because if you buff one aspect, you have to nerf another to balance her. Her lategame presence is only rivaled by Vayne and Kog'Maw and neither have her 1000 range get out of jail free card. She also is only rivaled by Kog'Maw for max range.
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20? That'd be nice.
FF at 5 mentality.
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On September 18 2012 06:59 Craton wrote:
If you're going to buff any aspect of Trist's kit, you're going to nerf some other aspect.
If you want to make W "smoother" then you nerf her damage. If you want to make W do more damage (lolwtf?) then you nerf her Q and E. If you want to make E do more damage, then you nerf her Q and W.
Hell hit Q's attack speed and lower W's damage a bit if E became a frontloaded nuke instead of a stupid dot.
I'd take it.
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Trist is really dependent on certain supports because she is an all-in champ. Her burst is definitely not worse than Ez or Graves but it really relies on her to get a kill to get that refresh. She can't go aggressive and still disengage unless she secures the kill. If a jungler ganks Ez, he'd arcane shift away but still land a free poke or two on his pursuers but when Trist gets ganked, she'd use her main damage tool to escape. She's a purely all-in champion levels 2-6 and is easy to get baited.
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On September 18 2012 07:02 Craton wrote:
Because if you buff one aspect, you have to nerf another to balance her. Her lategame presence is only rivaled by Vayne and Kog'Maw and neither have her 1000 range get out of jail free card. She also is only rivaled by Kog'Maw for max range.
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20? That'd be nice.
FF at 5 mentality.
Aww, okay, I just misunderstood your original point - I thought by buffing one skill you would inherently nerf others without touching them, which just blatantly confused me. I agree that Trist is at a very interesting spot now and that the tiniest buff without negative adjustments might make her too strong. I mean, the champion is fine, it's just that the nature of SoloQ takes a dump on her power curve. Not sure if that makes sense.
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She is not an all-in champ.
She can choose to dive in for early kills, or she can sit back and farm and use her 1000 range escape if she feels threatened. In late game fights she can sit at 700 range away and shoot at 2+ aspd.
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On September 18 2012 06:28 Shiv. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 06:01 wei2coolman wrote:
Biggest problem with Trist is how unresponsive her jump is.
Even with the supposed "e" problems, the way bot lane works, pushing is good 90% of the time, to deny enemy CS, that isn't even that big of a core issue on tristana. If you watch a lot of current bot lane meta in tourneys (where there's a regular 2v2 lane), pushing botlane is regular strat (assuming river is well warded). The problem is the way her jump works, even if you look at Corki's usage of his jump, it's either as an escape or as a gap closer for his gatling gun, but in either usage the valkarie is rarely a "source" of damage. The jump is completely counter-intuitive on Trist, it forces bad plays to be made from players because people think it does more damage than it actually does. Literally 3 posts before this you claimed her biggest issue is her steroid. What the fuck is wrong with you. Also, solo Q != tourneys. And no, you don't want to push 90% of the time in solo Q. Also, the problem with her jump isn't that it deals damage, it's that it's not actually a jump. No one forces you to use it for damage lol. If you decide to copycat people's thoughts, at least understand them beforehand. The more I read your post the worse it gets. ''It forces bad plays from players because people think it deals more damage than it actually does.'' Dude, that's gold. So the problem of the champion is that people don't know the damage of her abilities? Fuck yeah, we finally know how to fix Trist.
I claimed that she wasn't as fit as graves or ez because of her steroid, which is a separate issue than talking about QoL issues with trist. Also if you read carefully I was more so making the point that giving it an AD ratio is completely pointless on the jump, the issue isn't necessarily jump damage it's its clunky mechanics.
TL:DR my actual thoughts on trist. she's fine where she's at, only change I want is QoL change on her jump. lack of steroid presence, and strong burst, makes her weak in midgame. But considering her lategame long range, she's just fine where she's at. It's just like cait has no real steroid, but she definitely still has a spot in LoL. If I didn't make that clear enough in earlier posts, sorry. No need to be an asshole about it.
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On September 18 2012 07:08 Craton wrote:
She is not an all-in champ.
She can choose to dive in for early kills, or she can sit back and farm and use her 1000 range escape if she feels threatened. In late game fights she can sit at 700 range away and shoot at 2+ aspd.
Sure you can choose not to utilize her burst and use rocket jump purely as an escape tool. But you're still choosing one over the other. It's not as versatile as Ezreal who could trade with Q + W and let things play out a bit first before choosing whether to use E to chase or to escape. Trist's rocket jump must land for her to deal her burst and if she had already used it then she must secure a kill or assist in order to get back to safety.Also, when Ez gets ganked, he could return quite a bit of damage while retreating.
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On September 18 2012 06:17 TheYango wrote:
The metagame favors AD carries with strong midgame teamfight right now. Midgame teamfight pre-BF item is Trist's weakest aspect.
It's not a mystery that she's not played that much right now, nor is it a problem, as the game is bound to move in another direction over time.
Eventually maybe, but it's likely we'll be stuck with the holy trinity of Ez/Graves/Corki for a while. Positioning is such an important aspect of AD carries and the vast majority of players suck at it (including me!). The heavy reliance on those three champions is not only letting players get away with poor positioning skills, but is also letting other players get away with poor peel. That's a double-dose of inertia, and it'll take a lot of time or another round of nerfs for things to change.
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On September 18 2012 07:17 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 06:28 Shiv. wrote:On September 18 2012 06:01 wei2coolman wrote:
Biggest problem with Trist is how unresponsive her jump is.
Even with the supposed "e" problems, the way bot lane works, pushing is good 90% of the time, to deny enemy CS, that isn't even that big of a core issue on tristana. If you watch a lot of current bot lane meta in tourneys (where there's a regular 2v2 lane), pushing botlane is regular strat (assuming river is well warded). The problem is the way her jump works, even if you look at Corki's usage of his jump, it's either as an escape or as a gap closer for his gatling gun, but in either usage the valkarie is rarely a "source" of damage. The jump is completely counter-intuitive on Trist, it forces bad plays to be made from players because people think it does more damage than it actually does. Literally 3 posts before this you claimed her biggest issue is her steroid. What the fuck is wrong with you. Also, solo Q != tourneys. And no, you don't want to push 90% of the time in solo Q. Also, the problem with her jump isn't that it deals damage, it's that it's not actually a jump. No one forces you to use it for damage lol. If you decide to copycat people's thoughts, at least understand them beforehand. The more I read your post the worse it gets. ''It forces bad plays from players because people think it deals more damage than it actually does.'' Dude, that's gold. So the problem of the champion is that people don't know the damage of her abilities? Fuck yeah, we finally know how to fix Trist. I claimed that she wasn't as fit as graves or ez because of her steroid, which is a separate issue than talking about QoL issues with trist. Also if you read carefully I was more so making the point that giving it an AD ratio is completely pointless on the jump, the issue isn't necessarily jump damage it's its clunky mechanics. TL:DR my actual thoughts on trist. she's fine where she's at, only change I want is QoL change on her jump. lack of steroid presence, and strong burst, makes her weak in midgame. But considering her lategame long range, she's just fine where she's at. It's just like cait has no real steroid, but she definitely still has a spot in LoL. If I didn't make that clear enough in earlier posts, sorry. No need to be an asshole about it.
I am not mistaken, Caitlyn's steroid accounts for ~8% extra damage... it's free (requires no mana) and always on.
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On September 18 2012 07:17 wei2coolman wrote:
I think the big problem with trist is that her steroid doesn't refresh
On September 18 2012 07:17 wei2coolman wrote:
Biggest problem with Trist is how unresponsive her jump is.
On September 18 2012 07:17 wei2coolman wrote:
The jump is completely counter-intuitive on Trist, it forces bad plays to be made from players because people think it does more damage than it actually does.
And now, you're just backpaddling. You explicitly said how you felt about her problems, changed your mind 3 posts later and then randomly threw in stuff about her jump, the two biggest arguments being that it's not responsive (while the actual problem is that it's technically a dash) and that people think it does more damage than it does, hence forcing people to make bad plays. Now, all of a sudden, her problem is the lack of steroid presence mid game, which is also wrong because her steroid gets maxed out mid game, it's not stronger or weaker than at level 18, what she lacks is the items to fully utilize it. I'm sorry dude, it's just that if you don't have anything to contribute, don't just post for the sake of posting. Nothing terrible about being wrong, it's only human, but you literally had three different opinions in three posts now and that's just silly.
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All that Tristana needs to be ok is a way to turn off her passive explosion on her 'E' because once you get a lane advantage there is no way you can actually freeze the lane unless you don't take points in E which is kind of retarded ^^
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On September 18 2012 06:45 thenexusp wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 06:37 arb wrote:On September 18 2012 06:28 Shiv. wrote:On September 18 2012 06:01 wei2coolman wrote:
Biggest problem with Trist is how unresponsive her jump is.
Even with the supposed "e" problems, the way bot lane works, pushing is good 90% of the time, to deny enemy CS, that isn't even that big of a core issue on tristana. If you watch a lot of current bot lane meta in tourneys (where there's a regular 2v2 lane), pushing botlane is regular strat (assuming river is well warded). The problem is the way her jump works, even if you look at Corki's usage of his jump, it's either as an escape or as a gap closer for his gatling gun, but in either usage the valkarie is rarely a "source" of damage. The jump is completely counter-intuitive on Trist, it forces bad plays to be made from players because people think it does more damage than it actually does. Literally 3 posts before this you claimed her biggest issue is her steroid. What the fuck is wrong with you. Also, solo Q != tourneys. And no, you don't want to push 90% of the time in solo Q. Also, the problem with her jump isn't that it deals damage, it's that it's not actually a jump. No one forces you to use it for damage lol. If you decide to copycat people's thoughts, at least understand them beforehand. Her Q steroid is comparable to graves' but hers doesnt reset, if hers had the same CD scaling on it as graves i honestly think she'd be the most retarded ad carry. Her range alone is the mosts ridiculous thing, but her AS boost is so short and doesnt refreshi t really harms her usefulness. I mean she doesnt have an E like corkis or graves Q, no bullshit AS slow like ezreals W, so i think if you reworked her E into something like that, or maybe made it frontloaded instead of a dot she might be a bit better I've always felt that the DoT on trist's E is really unintuitive. Why doesn't my big cannonball do any damage? I guess he's on fire or something With Riot gradually making DoTs into frontloaded damages (e.g. Sona's ult) I feel like Trist's E could use the same treatment.
E is really good lvl 1 cus you can do a auto -> E -> auto and deal tons of damage!
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United States47024 Posts
The funny thing about this to me is that Tristana's power curve is very similar to the way Morphling's looked in DotA prior to his recent set of buffs. Strong laning, powerful endgame, huge dip in power midgame before first major damage item.
Anyone who watched the International knows what a midgame teamfight monster Icefrog turned Morphling into.
Let's see what Riot does to Tristana.
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To be honest, at the moment I feel that the 3 big AD's atm just have way to much burst damage early on. This is why they outclass the other AD's so badly, they have caster'ish amounts of burst combined with a generally good skillset and a good escape. I think if they tone down the burst till at least later game it should be a lot more balanced.
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EPT
