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On September 10 2012 07:27 clickrush wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2012 06:47 Requizen wrote:On September 10 2012 06:43 Slayer91 wrote:On September 10 2012 06:40 Mondieu wrote:
just ban jayce. Don't nerf him. He's not that strong, it's just that he's a good poker. Good poker, good laner, good burst, good sustained damage, good utility, good mobility.. Think of how bad the press would be if the 100th champ was bad. I'm ok with Jayce being good. + Show Spoiler +Not an excuse for free wins. Also, while everyone bitches about Soraka and Blitz as OP supports, Janna continues to be fucking insane. I love it. the strongest support at the moment is taric. he just works well with virtually any champion and is effective in defensive and offensive lanes. he also works good with ez, corki and graves as well as against them because he hast the most reliable stun of all the supports. tarics lategame is probably one of the least amazing but shureilas into stun combo is still a strong initiation. I dont understand why blitz is considered the strongest offensive support. leona is tankier and deals more damage while her initiation is far less situational. what makes blitz strong is those teamfight hooks which are very situational while leona just allways gets her stuns on the right target in any fight. a good blitz play has more influence but is less reliable. I'd say out of the aggressive supports blitz and leona are equals. leona is not played as much though, but I don't know why actually.
when you go in with leona, you go IN. when you engage with blitzcrank, the enemy comes to you.
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On September 10 2012 07:27 clickrush wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2012 06:47 Requizen wrote:On September 10 2012 06:43 Slayer91 wrote:On September 10 2012 06:40 Mondieu wrote:
just ban jayce. Don't nerf him. He's not that strong, it's just that he's a good poker. Good poker, good laner, good burst, good sustained damage, good utility, good mobility.. Think of how bad the press would be if the 100th champ was bad. I'm ok with Jayce being good. + Show Spoiler +Not an excuse for free wins. Also, while everyone bitches about Soraka and Blitz as OP supports, Janna continues to be fucking insane. I love it. the strongest support at the moment is taric. he just works well with virtually any champion and is effective in defensive and offensive lanes. he also works good with ez, corki and graves as well as against them because he hast the most reliable stun of all the supports. tarics lategame is probably one of the least amazing but shureilas into stun combo is still a strong initiation. I dont understand why blitz is considered the strongest offensive support. leona is tankier and deals more damage while her initiation is far less situational. what makes blitz strong is those teamfight hooks which are very situational while leona just allways gets her stuns on the right target in any fight. a good blitz play has more influence but is less reliable. I'd say out of the aggressive supports blitz and leona are equals. leona is not played as much though, but I don't know why actually.
Taric has 0 late game though since most bruisers going for your carry will have merc threads and one 1 second stun won't help that much on peeling . So you have to seal the deal in mid game, and that's pretty hard these days when all the teams learned how to turtle once they see the opportunity they have if they wait for late game  Taric/Tristana for example; go 5/0 in lane and dominate, but if other 2 lanes aren't doing good there's no way Tristana can carry the mid game since she's so damn bad until level 18+ LW/PD/IE
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You aren't forced to use everything on a bruiser. Good Taric lategame is about finding ways to use abilities on the carries at the right moments.
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On September 10 2012 07:31 Mondieu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2012 07:27 clickrush wrote:On September 10 2012 06:47 Requizen wrote:On September 10 2012 06:43 Slayer91 wrote:On September 10 2012 06:40 Mondieu wrote:
just ban jayce. Don't nerf him. He's not that strong, it's just that he's a good poker. Good poker, good laner, good burst, good sustained damage, good utility, good mobility.. Think of how bad the press would be if the 100th champ was bad. I'm ok with Jayce being good. + Show Spoiler +Not an excuse for free wins. Also, while everyone bitches about Soraka and Blitz as OP supports, Janna continues to be fucking insane. I love it. the strongest support at the moment is taric. he just works well with virtually any champion and is effective in defensive and offensive lanes. he also works good with ez, corki and graves as well as against them because he hast the most reliable stun of all the supports. tarics lategame is probably one of the least amazing but shureilas into stun combo is still a strong initiation. I dont understand why blitz is considered the strongest offensive support. leona is tankier and deals more damage while her initiation is far less situational. what makes blitz strong is those teamfight hooks which are very situational while leona just allways gets her stuns on the right target in any fight. a good blitz play has more influence but is less reliable. I'd say out of the aggressive supports blitz and leona are equals. leona is not played as much though, but I don't know why actually. Taric has 0 late game though since most bruisers going for your carry will have merc threads and one 1 second stun won't help that much on peeling . So you have to seal the deal in mid game, and that's pretty hard these days when all the teams learned how to turtle once they see the opportunity they have if they wait for late game Taric/Tristana for example; go 5/0 in lane and dominate, but if other 2 lanes aren't doing good there's no way Tristana can carry the mid game since she's so damn bad until level 18+ LW/PD/IE
Call me crazy but I feel like a fed Tristana is like the easiest champion in the game to carry with.
o.o
So many jumps, can be a real bully with a good support, and she AD carry.
I mean, is there any AD carry that can really "carry" in the mid game? I think Taric good as a support because he reasonably effective without items and just has so much lane control both defensively and offensively. So binary too, you stun -> go in. No real miscommunications or even communication needed. Just stun and go in erry time.
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Eh, aside from ok burst and some decent auras, what are you doing late game? One single target stun on a super long cooldown and a pitiful heal, not much comparatively. His laning is great, I'll admit, though.
A well placed Janna tornado and/or ult can turn a teamfight around, and W and Shield can save a carry very, very easily.
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On September 10 2012 07:29 CeriseCherries wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2012 07:27 clickrush wrote:On September 10 2012 06:47 Requizen wrote:On September 10 2012 06:43 Slayer91 wrote:On September 10 2012 06:40 Mondieu wrote:
just ban jayce. Don't nerf him. He's not that strong, it's just that he's a good poker. Good poker, good laner, good burst, good sustained damage, good utility, good mobility.. Think of how bad the press would be if the 100th champ was bad. I'm ok with Jayce being good. + Show Spoiler +Not an excuse for free wins. Also, while everyone bitches about Soraka and Blitz as OP supports, Janna continues to be fucking insane. I love it. the strongest support at the moment is taric. he just works well with virtually any champion and is effective in defensive and offensive lanes. he also works good with ez, corki and graves as well as against them because he hast the most reliable stun of all the supports. tarics lategame is probably one of the least amazing but shureilas into stun combo is still a strong initiation. I dont understand why blitz is considered the strongest offensive support. leona is tankier and deals more damage while her initiation is far less situational. what makes blitz strong is those teamfight hooks which are very situational while leona just allways gets her stuns on the right target in any fight. a good blitz play has more influence but is less reliable. I'd say out of the aggressive supports blitz and leona are equals. leona is not played as much though, but I don't know why actually. when you go in with leona, you go IN. when you engage with blitzcrank, the enemy comes to you.
adding to this, nothing turns 5 pubbies into a coordinated team like forcing a 5v1
Leona on the other hand has the risk of finding yourself in a 1v5 if your team doesn't follow up. At least Alistar can survive with R which is why he's banned (and the in-lane sustain ofc)
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Pretty sure a leona in the right hands is the best support right now in a competitive environment.
Taric and blitz dominate soloq tho.
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On September 10 2012 07:43 Requizen wrote:
Eh, aside from ok burst and some decent auras, what are you doing late game? One single target stun on a super long cooldown and a pitiful heal, not much comparatively. His laning is great, I'll admit, though.
A well placed Janna tornado and/or ult can turn a teamfight around, and W and Shield can save a carry very, very easily.
The stun is better than you give it credit for... just dont use it to initiate, use it to peel later or disable a carry when they get ballsy/assume all your CC blown. Just being obnoxious with Reverie, tanky auras good enough, because especially in Solo Queue a good taric probably won lane for his AD hard.
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On September 10 2012 07:43 Flakes wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2012 07:29 CeriseCherries wrote:On September 10 2012 07:27 clickrush wrote:On September 10 2012 06:47 Requizen wrote:On September 10 2012 06:43 Slayer91 wrote:On September 10 2012 06:40 Mondieu wrote:
just ban jayce. Don't nerf him. He's not that strong, it's just that he's a good poker. Good poker, good laner, good burst, good sustained damage, good utility, good mobility.. Think of how bad the press would be if the 100th champ was bad. I'm ok with Jayce being good. + Show Spoiler +Not an excuse for free wins. Also, while everyone bitches about Soraka and Blitz as OP supports, Janna continues to be fucking insane. I love it. the strongest support at the moment is taric. he just works well with virtually any champion and is effective in defensive and offensive lanes. he also works good with ez, corki and graves as well as against them because he hast the most reliable stun of all the supports. tarics lategame is probably one of the least amazing but shureilas into stun combo is still a strong initiation. I dont understand why blitz is considered the strongest offensive support. leona is tankier and deals more damage while her initiation is far less situational. what makes blitz strong is those teamfight hooks which are very situational while leona just allways gets her stuns on the right target in any fight. a good blitz play has more influence but is less reliable. I'd say out of the aggressive supports blitz and leona are equals. leona is not played as much though, but I don't know why actually. when you go in with leona, you go IN. when you engage with blitzcrank, the enemy comes to you. adding to this, nothing turns 5 pubbies into a coordinated team like forcing a 5v1 Leona on the other hand has the risk of finding yourself in a 1v5 if your team doesn't follow up. At least Alistar can survive with R which is why he's banned (and the in-lane sustain ofc)
...no.
Alistar is banned because he can gank and tower dive throughout lane phase with impunity. That he can live when his team is full retarding has nothing to do with why he's banned. Similarly, his (very low) sustain has nothing to do with it.
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I mean, is there any AD carry that can really "carry" in the mid game?
ezreal, if you build him right (I run a wierd brut>sheen>yo>brut>luci>trin>inf build that just fucks shit up midgame, it's terrifying) I think is strongest midgame, compared to graves in the early lategame and corki in the late-lategame.
he's not the sort of champ who can 1v3 a full health bruiser, AP carry and jungler if he gets fed, but he's certainly the kind who can go into a 4v4 at dragon around 20 mins and pull off a reliable quadrakill if nobody shuts him down quickly, fed or no. his kit just makes for a lot of reliable, safe damage in an extended skirmish and his W just outright wins a teamfight if you hit it right across 2/3 of yours and 2/3 of theirs.
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On September 10 2012 07:49 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2012 07:43 Requizen wrote:
Eh, aside from ok burst and some decent auras, what are you doing late game? One single target stun on a super long cooldown and a pitiful heal, not much comparatively. His laning is great, I'll admit, though.
A well placed Janna tornado and/or ult can turn a teamfight around, and W and Shield can save a carry very, very easily. The stun is better than you give it credit for... just dont use it to initiate, use it to peel later or disable a carry when they get ballsy/assume all your CC blown. Just being obnoxious with Reverie, tanky auras good enough, because especially in Solo Queue a good taric probably won lane for his AD hard.
The assumption you did well early isn't a good justification for Taric's mediocre lategame. The point is if Janna or Nunu's AD lost the laning phase, their skill let them come back 20 mins later. If Taric's AD loses laning, then he has a much harder way to recover.
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On September 10 2012 07:51 Craton wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2012 07:43 Flakes wrote:On September 10 2012 07:29 CeriseCherries wrote:On September 10 2012 07:27 clickrush wrote:On September 10 2012 06:47 Requizen wrote:On September 10 2012 06:43 Slayer91 wrote:On September 10 2012 06:40 Mondieu wrote:
just ban jayce. Don't nerf him. He's not that strong, it's just that he's a good poker. Good poker, good laner, good burst, good sustained damage, good utility, good mobility.. Think of how bad the press would be if the 100th champ was bad. I'm ok with Jayce being good. + Show Spoiler +Not an excuse for free wins. Also, while everyone bitches about Soraka and Blitz as OP supports, Janna continues to be fucking insane. I love it. the strongest support at the moment is taric. he just works well with virtually any champion and is effective in defensive and offensive lanes. he also works good with ez, corki and graves as well as against them because he hast the most reliable stun of all the supports. tarics lategame is probably one of the least amazing but shureilas into stun combo is still a strong initiation. I dont understand why blitz is considered the strongest offensive support. leona is tankier and deals more damage while her initiation is far less situational. what makes blitz strong is those teamfight hooks which are very situational while leona just allways gets her stuns on the right target in any fight. a good blitz play has more influence but is less reliable. I'd say out of the aggressive supports blitz and leona are equals. leona is not played as much though, but I don't know why actually. when you go in with leona, you go IN. when you engage with blitzcrank, the enemy comes to you. adding to this, nothing turns 5 pubbies into a coordinated team like forcing a 5v1 Leona on the other hand has the risk of finding yourself in a 1v5 if your team doesn't follow up. At least Alistar can survive with R which is why he's banned (and the in-lane sustain ofc) ...no. Alistar is banned because he can gank and tower dive throughout lane phase with impunity. That he can live when his team is full retarding has nothing to do with why he's banned. Similarly, his (very low) sustain has nothing to do with it.
oh right.
bans are where I'm guilty of being a metasheep since I just copy everyone else's
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/flamewheel/sadsheep.gif)
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On September 10 2012 07:31 Mondieu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2012 07:27 clickrush wrote:On September 10 2012 06:47 Requizen wrote:On September 10 2012 06:43 Slayer91 wrote:On September 10 2012 06:40 Mondieu wrote:
just ban jayce. Don't nerf him. He's not that strong, it's just that he's a good poker. Good poker, good laner, good burst, good sustained damage, good utility, good mobility.. Think of how bad the press would be if the 100th champ was bad. I'm ok with Jayce being good. + Show Spoiler +Not an excuse for free wins. Also, while everyone bitches about Soraka and Blitz as OP supports, Janna continues to be fucking insane. I love it. the strongest support at the moment is taric. he just works well with virtually any champion and is effective in defensive and offensive lanes. he also works good with ez, corki and graves as well as against them because he hast the most reliable stun of all the supports. tarics lategame is probably one of the least amazing but shureilas into stun combo is still a strong initiation. I dont understand why blitz is considered the strongest offensive support. leona is tankier and deals more damage while her initiation is far less situational. what makes blitz strong is those teamfight hooks which are very situational while leona just allways gets her stuns on the right target in any fight. a good blitz play has more influence but is less reliable. I'd say out of the aggressive supports blitz and leona are equals. leona is not played as much though, but I don't know why actually. Taric has 0 late game though since most bruisers going for your carry will have merc threads and one 1 second stun won't help that much on peeling . So you have to seal the deal in mid game, and that's pretty hard these days when all the teams learned how to turtle once they see the opportunity they have if they wait for late game Taric/Tristana for example; go 5/0 in lane and dominate, but if other 2 lanes aren't doing good there's no way Tristana can carry the mid game since she's so damn bad until level 18+ LW/PD/IE
Which is why you go sivir or graves taric (hell, even mf)
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In my opinion the only thing holding Leona back from being as popular as Taric in solo q is the fact that she's harder to play properly.
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On September 10 2012 08:06 Twinmold wrote:
In my opinion the only thing holding Leona back from being as popular as Taric in solo q is the fact that it's harder to play her properly.
And when I get behind as Leona, it is the most miserable thing ever.
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On September 10 2012 07:27 clickrush wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2012 06:47 Requizen wrote:On September 10 2012 06:43 Slayer91 wrote:On September 10 2012 06:40 Mondieu wrote:
just ban jayce. Don't nerf him. He's not that strong, it's just that he's a good poker. Good poker, good laner, good burst, good sustained damage, good utility, good mobility.. Think of how bad the press would be if the 100th champ was bad. I'm ok with Jayce being good. + Show Spoiler +Not an excuse for free wins. Also, while everyone bitches about Soraka and Blitz as OP supports, Janna continues to be fucking insane. I love it. the strongest support at the moment is taric. he just works well with virtually any champion and is effective in defensive and offensive lanes. he also works good with ez, corki and graves as well as against them because he hast the most reliable stun of all the supports. tarics lategame is probably one of the least amazing but shureilas into stun combo is still a strong initiation. I dont understand why blitz is considered the strongest offensive support. leona is tankier and deals more damage while her initiation is far less situational. what makes blitz strong is those teamfight hooks which are very situational while leona just allways gets her stuns on the right target in any fight. a good blitz play has more influence but is less reliable. I'd say out of the aggressive supports blitz and leona are equals. leona is not played as much though, but I don't know why actually.
I'd still say Alistar or Janna are better than Taric. I find that they're a lot more versatile, being able to go from offense to defense fairly easily. Alistar also has the option to go jungle and do really well, and has the ability to go into a fight with his ult and survive on limited items. Janna has great cc along with a passive useful all the time, not to mention great damage mitigation.
Leona suffers a bit from going into the team instead of having the enemy go to your team. Because of the low amount of items Leona will have, it's a lot more dangerous. Still, I'd probably say Leona is better because of her damage output with her team and her ranged stun.
On another note, WTF IS UP WITH JAYCE!!!!!! I just faced him vs Renekton, and there was pretty much nothing I could do. That knockback just took chunks out of me. What happened was I was managing to stay on even terms of cs and harassing more than he could harass me. He slowly started being able to trade a bit better, but I managed to get him to fight under my tower. We killed each other, and came back to lane with the same items. Then there was just no contest.
He could take away a fifth of my health with that knockback, and he started zoning me. He managed to kill me again, and after that I got a gank on him, so I got back to even kills. IT DIDN'T MAKE ANY F***ING DIFFERENCE! He could still keep me from doing anything, and he could build tanky while doing great damage.
My question isn't really: how do I deal with Jayce. My question is: WHY IS EVERYBODY NOT PLAYING JAYCE!
P.S: Am I the only one who has a problem with Renekton's animations? I for some reason had my moves be delayed compared to Jayce's, making trading even more impossible. His ult wouldn't activate until a bit after pressing, making saving myself from the killing blow and turning around the fight completely impossible.
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On September 10 2012 08:06 Twinmold wrote:
In my opinion the only thing holding Leona back from being as popular as Taric in solo q is the fact that she's harder to play properly.
Also the fact that she costs 6300 IP and can only be played as a support. Not many people are willing to pony up that much IP for a support champion.
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On September 10 2012 08:17 Dark_Chill wrote:
Leona suffers a bit from going into the team instead of having the enemy go to your team. Because of the low amount of items Leona will have, it's a lot more dangerous. Still, I'd probably say Leona is better because of her damage output with her team and her ranged stun.
It's not really that risky to engage with her because of how her W gives her a ton of free armor and magic resist. You just got to be prepared to back off once you've used your combo.
On September 10 2012 08:19 Lmui wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2012 08:06 Twinmold wrote:
In my opinion the only thing holding Leona back from being as popular as Taric in solo q is the fact that she's harder to play properly. Also the fact that she costs 6300 IP and can only be played as a support. Not many people are willing to pony up that much IP for a support champion.
Which is a shame considering how fun she is
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On September 10 2012 08:26 Twinmold wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2012 08:17 Dark_Chill wrote:
Leona suffers a bit from going into the team instead of having the enemy go to your team. Because of the low amount of items Leona will have, it's a lot more dangerous. Still, I'd probably say Leona is better because of her damage output with her team and her ranged stun.
It's not really that risky to engage with her because of how her W gives her a ton of free armor and magic resist. You just got to be prepared to back off once you've used your combo. Show nested quote +On September 10 2012 08:19 Lmui wrote:On September 10 2012 08:06 Twinmold wrote:
In my opinion the only thing holding Leona back from being as popular as Taric in solo q is the fact that she's harder to play properly. Also the fact that she costs 6300 IP and can only be played as a support. Not many people are willing to pony up that much IP for a support champion. Which is a shame considering how fun she is
The problem with trying to escape with Leona is you ideally want to initiate on someone other than the tank, which means you're on the back line where the damage is. The deal with most supports is you generally are underleveled compared to your ADC, which means you're much less than Top/Mid and maybe evenish with jungle. Unless you're ahead Leona is generally pretty low level so that cuts the ranks of W and your HP in relation to the DPS a ton. It's great when you do well in lane because you can snowball the advantage, but much more painful when you're behind.
A good Blitzcrank technically only needs to survive the initial AoE burst from the enemy team if he lands a good hook. The problem for the most part is most teams kinda just throw him in without getting a very strong team synergy going. Morg/Blitz is very good as evidenced by TSM.
Supports are more like the icing and extra zing to your cake of team comps. You need good complementary things for one another, not just the greatest ingredients you can find.
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On September 10 2012 08:39 Celestial wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2012 08:26 Twinmold wrote:On September 10 2012 08:17 Dark_Chill wrote:
Leona suffers a bit from going into the team instead of having the enemy go to your team. Because of the low amount of items Leona will have, it's a lot more dangerous. Still, I'd probably say Leona is better because of her damage output with her team and her ranged stun.
It's not really that risky to engage with her because of how her W gives her a ton of free armor and magic resist. You just got to be prepared to back off once you've used your combo. On September 10 2012 08:19 Lmui wrote:On September 10 2012 08:06 Twinmold wrote:
In my opinion the only thing holding Leona back from being as popular as Taric in solo q is the fact that she's harder to play properly. Also the fact that she costs 6300 IP and can only be played as a support. Not many people are willing to pony up that much IP for a support champion. Which is a shame considering how fun she is The problem with trying to escape with Leona is you ideally want to initiate on someone other than the tank, which means you're on the back line where the damage is. The deal with most supports is you generally are underleveled compared to your ADC, which means you're much less than Top/Mid and maybe evenish with jungle. Unless you're ahead Leona is generally pretty low level so that cuts the ranks of W and your HP in relation to the DPS a ton. It's great when you do well in lane because you can snowball the advantage, but much more painful when you're behind. A good Blitzcrank technically only needs to survive the initial AoE burst from the enemy team if he lands a good hook. The problem for the most part is most teams kinda just throw him in without getting a very strong team synergy going. Morg/Blitz is very good as evidenced by TSM. Supports are more like the icing and extra zing to your cake of team comps. You need good complementary things for one another, not just the greatest ingredients you can find.
You only really need to be in the middle of the teamfight for the time it takes your W to pop (if even for that long). After that's done you try to partially disengage by either using flash or simply running. If they follow you then they're spending alot of resources they could be using to actually kill stuff on chasing the support. And your W ranks should never really be "cut" either considering how it's maxed by lvl 9 and most teamfights will happen after this point.
If you're really behind as Leona you should be prioritizing cheap survivability items so that you don't get instagibbed in teamfights and simply use your kit to peel instead.
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EPT
