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On August 17 2012 13:14 ketchup wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 13:11 UniversalSnip wrote:I also remember someone from PBE joining in here to explain why they felt Jax was strong, but their feedback was essentially ignored by TL. Actually ignored is putting it nicely. I believe there was animosity from people instead. You are referring to changes to his ult (not the champion remake), which A) was pretty much a wash in terms of power level (same patch, big buff to counterstrike and I think something else, that's what broke him) and B) I think like one person was rude and everyone else told him to pipe down. I'm relatively sure it was posted after the full remake was released(I admit my memory is bad though, so I'll go look it up). Otherwise that person might have gotten into some trouble. It was not just the ult change. Here it is: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=316556¤tpage=196#3909 (March 17th) Jax rework was announced early January and released around the same time: youtube.com/watch?v=B18qApcVCRg
I think you misunderstood what I said, that confirms my statements.
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On August 17 2012 13:43 UniversalSnip wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 13:14 ketchup wrote:On August 17 2012 13:11 UniversalSnip wrote:I also remember someone from PBE joining in here to explain why they felt Jax was strong, but their feedback was essentially ignored by TL. Actually ignored is putting it nicely. I believe there was animosity from people instead. You are referring to changes to his ult (not the champion remake), which A) was pretty much a wash in terms of power level (same patch, big buff to counterstrike and I think something else, that's what broke him) and B) I think like one person was rude and everyone else told him to pipe down. I'm relatively sure it was posted after the full remake was released(I admit my memory is bad though, so I'll go look it up). Otherwise that person might have gotten into some trouble. It was not just the ult change. Here it is: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=316556¤tpage=196#3909 (March 17th) Jax rework was announced early January and released around the same time: youtube.com/watch?v=B18qApcVCRg I think you misunderstood what I said, that confirms my statements.
Does it? It could be I misunderstood, but pretty sure he was talking about the rework as a whole, with emphasis on the ult. Mainly because the emphasis from TL and their thoughts were centric to Jax's ult at the time.
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On August 17 2012 13:45 ketchup wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 13:43 UniversalSnip wrote:On August 17 2012 13:14 ketchup wrote:On August 17 2012 13:11 UniversalSnip wrote:I also remember someone from PBE joining in here to explain why they felt Jax was strong, but their feedback was essentially ignored by TL. Actually ignored is putting it nicely. I believe there was animosity from people instead. You are referring to changes to his ult (not the champion remake), which A) was pretty much a wash in terms of power level (same patch, big buff to counterstrike and I think something else, that's what broke him) and B) I think like one person was rude and everyone else told him to pipe down. I'm relatively sure it was posted after the full remake was released(I admit my memory is bad though, so I'll go look it up). Otherwise that person might have gotten into some trouble. It was not just the ult change. Here it is: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=316556¤tpage=196#3909 (March 17th) Jax rework was announced early January and released around the same time: youtube.com/watch?v=B18qApcVCRg I think you misunderstood what I said, that confirms my statements. Does it? It could be I misunderstood, but pretty sure he was talking about the rework as a whole, with emphasis on the ult. Mainly because the emphasis from TL and their thoughts were centric to Jax's ult at the time.
He was specifically describing the ult change.
I mean, I'm right there on that page, I remember the discussion.
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On August 17 2012 13:05 ketchup wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 08:57 Seuss wrote:
For example, even though he isn't a frequent pick I find Zilean's kit amazingly cohesive and well designed. But you can be certain that if Riot remade him they'd shy away from abilities that act as pure utility. His Rewind might come paired with mana regen or CDR, and his Time Warp might gain damage over time when cast on an opponent. For whatever reason "pure" abilities are no longer kosher, which I find odd and saddening. I'd like to disagree here respectfully. I believe Riot knows the initial core design of a champion they've created, and attempt to keep those signature skills intact. There's a reason Jax still has his dodge even though they purposefully removed that mechanic entirely from the game. There's a reason Katarina still has her ult, even though it is way too difficult to properly balance the champion due to it. Same with Eve/Twitch reworks. I do not think they will touch a champion like Zilean in that manner. Also even though there's a lot of negativity towards reworks, they honestly do not do as bad a job as the overall community thinks. I still remember hearing the whine about Jax rework from TL especially, and seeing people cry about it here. Now, his design is considered very powerful. I also remember someone from PBE joining in here to explain why they felt Jax was strong, but their feedback was essentially ignored by TL. Actually ignored is putting it nicely. I believe there was animosity from people here instead.
I used Zilean as an example because he has multiple "pure" abilities. It's not that I think Riot will remake Zilean, but more that we haven't seen anything quite like those abilities in a long time. The closest thing, Zyra's W, was quickly changed to have a passive effect to make it more interesting. If Zilean were a new champion released today, his design would be very, very different.
I misspoke slightly when I singled out remakes. Aside from the original botched Kayle remake they've been fairly good. I just think that it's still possible to make interesting champions who have an ability which doesn't come with bells and whistles.
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On August 17 2012 14:13 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 13:05 ketchup wrote:On August 17 2012 08:57 Seuss wrote:
For example, even though he isn't a frequent pick I find Zilean's kit amazingly cohesive and well designed. But you can be certain that if Riot remade him they'd shy away from abilities that act as pure utility. His Rewind might come paired with mana regen or CDR, and his Time Warp might gain damage over time when cast on an opponent. For whatever reason "pure" abilities are no longer kosher, which I find odd and saddening. I'd like to disagree here respectfully. I believe Riot knows the initial core design of a champion they've created, and attempt to keep those signature skills intact. There's a reason Jax still has his dodge even though they purposefully removed that mechanic entirely from the game. There's a reason Katarina still has her ult, even though it is way too difficult to properly balance the champion due to it. Same with Eve/Twitch reworks. I do not think they will touch a champion like Zilean in that manner. Also even though there's a lot of negativity towards reworks, they honestly do not do as bad a job as the overall community thinks. I still remember hearing the whine about Jax rework from TL especially, and seeing people cry about it here. Now, his design is considered very powerful. I also remember someone from PBE joining in here to explain why they felt Jax was strong, but their feedback was essentially ignored by TL. Actually ignored is putting it nicely. I believe there was animosity from people here instead. I used Zilean as an example because he has multiple "pure" abilities. It's not that I think Riot will remake Zilean, but more that we haven't seen anything quite like those abilities in a long time. The closest thing, Zyra's W, was quickly changed to have a passive effect to make it more interesting. If Zilean were a new champion released today, his design would be very, very different. I misspoke slightly when I singled out remakes. Aside from the original botched Kayle remake they've been fairly good. I just think that it's still possible to make interesting champions who have an ability which doesn't come with bells and whistles.
What was so botched about the original Kayle remake that it sticks out to you? If it was because it turned out ridiculously strong, wouldn't you throw the first Eve remake in there with it? Just curious.
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On the topic of champion release cycles I'm really hoping that Riot will move to a model of alternating between a new champion and a new legendary skin/theme every two weeks (so down to one new champ per month). I feel like at that rate they could pretty much keep going indefinitely. Right now it just feels a little overwhelming.
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If Riot really want longevity, what they could do is make a new map (wasn't there concept art for a 5 player, 4 lane map?) and just release champions for that particular map. Repeat ad infinitum.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 17 2012 14:59 ChaoSbringer wrote:
If Riot really want longevity, what they could do is make a new map (wasn't there concept art for a 5 player, 4 lane map?) and just release champions for that particular map. Repeat ad infinitum.
As Chill said, sustainability in terms of purely being able to continue to make money, their current model is just fine.
The issue is building a model that's compatible in the long run with being a competitive E-sports game. Content addition ad infinitum unfortunately isn't. And bringing in a completely new map and flushing the champ pool repeatedly is WORSE than simply continuing to add champs for SR in that regard.
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Both jax and kayle were nerfed so hard compared to what they were. It's just literally everything else was changed/nerfed since then too. Like people even today say how lategame vayne's damage is retarded, but it's nothing compared to her release, and it's even less compared to the old twitch, jax, and kayle lategame before their reworks.
Kayle also was written off for so long partially due to people's laziness of finding new things thst work and partially due to how hard they hit her damage in comparison to pre-rework which caused a lot of people to say fuck it (they did need to buff her a bit and rework a lot of numbers after the rework, and that was when she got her new model too) Considering the old kayle could build fricken nashors tooth and still 3 shot you doesn't tell you just how retardedly strong she was in comparison to today? lol
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On August 17 2012 14:24 red_ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 14:13 Seuss wrote:On August 17 2012 13:05 ketchup wrote:On August 17 2012 08:57 Seuss wrote:
For example, even though he isn't a frequent pick I find Zilean's kit amazingly cohesive and well designed. But you can be certain that if Riot remade him they'd shy away from abilities that act as pure utility. His Rewind might come paired with mana regen or CDR, and his Time Warp might gain damage over time when cast on an opponent. For whatever reason "pure" abilities are no longer kosher, which I find odd and saddening. I'd like to disagree here respectfully. I believe Riot knows the initial core design of a champion they've created, and attempt to keep those signature skills intact. There's a reason Jax still has his dodge even though they purposefully removed that mechanic entirely from the game. There's a reason Katarina still has her ult, even though it is way too difficult to properly balance the champion due to it. Same with Eve/Twitch reworks. I do not think they will touch a champion like Zilean in that manner. Also even though there's a lot of negativity towards reworks, they honestly do not do as bad a job as the overall community thinks. I still remember hearing the whine about Jax rework from TL especially, and seeing people cry about it here. Now, his design is considered very powerful. I also remember someone from PBE joining in here to explain why they felt Jax was strong, but their feedback was essentially ignored by TL. Actually ignored is putting it nicely. I believe there was animosity from people here instead. I used Zilean as an example because he has multiple "pure" abilities. It's not that I think Riot will remake Zilean, but more that we haven't seen anything quite like those abilities in a long time. The closest thing, Zyra's W, was quickly changed to have a passive effect to make it more interesting. If Zilean were a new champion released today, his design would be very, very different. I misspoke slightly when I singled out remakes. Aside from the original botched Kayle remake they've been fairly good. I just think that it's still possible to make interesting champions who have an ability which doesn't come with bells and whistles. What was so botched about the original Kayle remake that it sticks out to you? If it was because it turned out ridiculously strong, wouldn't you throw the first Eve remake in there with it? Just curious.
Botched in the sense that what Kayle ended up being strayed very far from the stated vision. They were aiming for an AD carry or support, but ended up with a top lane or jungler. They also had to give her significant buffs in subsequent patches to fix issues. What we have now isn't bad, but it wasn't what we were given or intended when the remake was complete.
The Eve remake is too recent for me to really give a comment on, especially as a non-Eve player. I know she can work in the jungle at least, though there are questions about her late game there, so it's obviously not a complete wash.
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On August 17 2012 15:25 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 14:24 red_ wrote:On August 17 2012 14:13 Seuss wrote:On August 17 2012 13:05 ketchup wrote:On August 17 2012 08:57 Seuss wrote:
For example, even though he isn't a frequent pick I find Zilean's kit amazingly cohesive and well designed. But you can be certain that if Riot remade him they'd shy away from abilities that act as pure utility. His Rewind might come paired with mana regen or CDR, and his Time Warp might gain damage over time when cast on an opponent. For whatever reason "pure" abilities are no longer kosher, which I find odd and saddening. I'd like to disagree here respectfully. I believe Riot knows the initial core design of a champion they've created, and attempt to keep those signature skills intact. There's a reason Jax still has his dodge even though they purposefully removed that mechanic entirely from the game. There's a reason Katarina still has her ult, even though it is way too difficult to properly balance the champion due to it. Same with Eve/Twitch reworks. I do not think they will touch a champion like Zilean in that manner. Also even though there's a lot of negativity towards reworks, they honestly do not do as bad a job as the overall community thinks. I still remember hearing the whine about Jax rework from TL especially, and seeing people cry about it here. Now, his design is considered very powerful. I also remember someone from PBE joining in here to explain why they felt Jax was strong, but their feedback was essentially ignored by TL. Actually ignored is putting it nicely. I believe there was animosity from people here instead. I used Zilean as an example because he has multiple "pure" abilities. It's not that I think Riot will remake Zilean, but more that we haven't seen anything quite like those abilities in a long time. The closest thing, Zyra's W, was quickly changed to have a passive effect to make it more interesting. If Zilean were a new champion released today, his design would be very, very different. I misspoke slightly when I singled out remakes. Aside from the original botched Kayle remake they've been fairly good. I just think that it's still possible to make interesting champions who have an ability which doesn't come with bells and whistles. What was so botched about the original Kayle remake that it sticks out to you? If it was because it turned out ridiculously strong, wouldn't you throw the first Eve remake in there with it? Just curious. Botched in the sense that what Kayle ended up being strayed very far from the stated vision. They were aiming for an AD carry or support, but ended up with a top lane or jungler. They also had to give her significant buffs in subsequent patches to fix issues. What we have now isn't bad, but it wasn't what we were given or intended when the remake was complete. The Eve remake is too recent for me to really give a comment on, especially as a non-Eve player. I know she can work in the jungle at least, though there are questions about her late game there, so it's obviously not a complete wash.
You're actually talking about Kayle's 2nd remake, which is where the confusion is(I agree her 2nd remake was pretty eh). Kayle's first remake took her from one of the least played(maybe the least) champs in the game, that had one of the clunkiest and least coherent kits ever, and made her temporarily into a god; which obviously got her nerfed, where she wallowed around for a bit until Riot decided stat in->stat out passives were something they didn't like and remade her again. I thought you were calling that a botched remake because for 2 weeks before they patched her immediately again, she absolutely wrecked towers, and accidentally killed champions with the splash(and vice versa).
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wasn't that the era of rageblade + ie kayle?
that shit was nuts. I think ppl did rageblade + dcap as well if i remember correctly
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On August 17 2012 15:36 red_ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 15:25 Seuss wrote:On August 17 2012 14:24 red_ wrote:On August 17 2012 14:13 Seuss wrote:On August 17 2012 13:05 ketchup wrote:On August 17 2012 08:57 Seuss wrote:
For example, even though he isn't a frequent pick I find Zilean's kit amazingly cohesive and well designed. But you can be certain that if Riot remade him they'd shy away from abilities that act as pure utility. His Rewind might come paired with mana regen or CDR, and his Time Warp might gain damage over time when cast on an opponent. For whatever reason "pure" abilities are no longer kosher, which I find odd and saddening. I'd like to disagree here respectfully. I believe Riot knows the initial core design of a champion they've created, and attempt to keep those signature skills intact. There's a reason Jax still has his dodge even though they purposefully removed that mechanic entirely from the game. There's a reason Katarina still has her ult, even though it is way too difficult to properly balance the champion due to it. Same with Eve/Twitch reworks. I do not think they will touch a champion like Zilean in that manner. Also even though there's a lot of negativity towards reworks, they honestly do not do as bad a job as the overall community thinks. I still remember hearing the whine about Jax rework from TL especially, and seeing people cry about it here. Now, his design is considered very powerful. I also remember someone from PBE joining in here to explain why they felt Jax was strong, but their feedback was essentially ignored by TL. Actually ignored is putting it nicely. I believe there was animosity from people here instead. I used Zilean as an example because he has multiple "pure" abilities. It's not that I think Riot will remake Zilean, but more that we haven't seen anything quite like those abilities in a long time. The closest thing, Zyra's W, was quickly changed to have a passive effect to make it more interesting. If Zilean were a new champion released today, his design would be very, very different. I misspoke slightly when I singled out remakes. Aside from the original botched Kayle remake they've been fairly good. I just think that it's still possible to make interesting champions who have an ability which doesn't come with bells and whistles. What was so botched about the original Kayle remake that it sticks out to you? If it was because it turned out ridiculously strong, wouldn't you throw the first Eve remake in there with it? Just curious. Botched in the sense that what Kayle ended up being strayed very far from the stated vision. They were aiming for an AD carry or support, but ended up with a top lane or jungler. They also had to give her significant buffs in subsequent patches to fix issues. What we have now isn't bad, but it wasn't what we were given or intended when the remake was complete. The Eve remake is too recent for me to really give a comment on, especially as a non-Eve player. I know she can work in the jungle at least, though there are questions about her late game there, so it's obviously not a complete wash. You're actually talking about Kayle's 2nd remake, which is where the confusion is(I agree her 2nd remake was pretty eh). Kayle's first remake took her from one of the least played(maybe the least) champs in the game, that had one of the clunkiest and least coherent kits ever, and made her temporarily into a god; which obviously got her nerfed, where she wallowed around for a bit until Riot decided stat in->stat out passives were something they didn't like and remade her again. I thought you were calling that a botched remake because for 2 weeks before they patched her immediately again, she absolutely wrecked towers, and accidentally killed champions with the splash(and vice versa).
Whoops, you're right. D:
I knew there were two, and I knew that was the more recent one. No idea why I called it the first. XD
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Why do mid laners always think blue buff is theirs? Like you take the first blue and it's always OMG WHERE"S MY BLUE I HAVEN"T HAD A BLUE YET instead of, could I please have the next blue? Or threatening to go afk because they don't have a blue.
If they're shit, they don't need a blue. If they don't ward and die to the enemy jungler every minute, they won't need the blue.
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Baa?21243 Posts
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On August 17 2012 15:36 red_ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 15:25 Seuss wrote:On August 17 2012 14:24 red_ wrote:On August 17 2012 14:13 Seuss wrote:On August 17 2012 13:05 ketchup wrote:On August 17 2012 08:57 Seuss wrote:
For example, even though he isn't a frequent pick I find Zilean's kit amazingly cohesive and well designed. But you can be certain that if Riot remade him they'd shy away from abilities that act as pure utility. His Rewind might come paired with mana regen or CDR, and his Time Warp might gain damage over time when cast on an opponent. For whatever reason "pure" abilities are no longer kosher, which I find odd and saddening. I'd like to disagree here respectfully. I believe Riot knows the initial core design of a champion they've created, and attempt to keep those signature skills intact. There's a reason Jax still has his dodge even though they purposefully removed that mechanic entirely from the game. There's a reason Katarina still has her ult, even though it is way too difficult to properly balance the champion due to it. Same with Eve/Twitch reworks. I do not think they will touch a champion like Zilean in that manner. Also even though there's a lot of negativity towards reworks, they honestly do not do as bad a job as the overall community thinks. I still remember hearing the whine about Jax rework from TL especially, and seeing people cry about it here. Now, his design is considered very powerful. I also remember someone from PBE joining in here to explain why they felt Jax was strong, but their feedback was essentially ignored by TL. Actually ignored is putting it nicely. I believe there was animosity from people here instead. I used Zilean as an example because he has multiple "pure" abilities. It's not that I think Riot will remake Zilean, but more that we haven't seen anything quite like those abilities in a long time. The closest thing, Zyra's W, was quickly changed to have a passive effect to make it more interesting. If Zilean were a new champion released today, his design would be very, very different. I misspoke slightly when I singled out remakes. Aside from the original botched Kayle remake they've been fairly good. I just think that it's still possible to make interesting champions who have an ability which doesn't come with bells and whistles. What was so botched about the original Kayle remake that it sticks out to you? If it was because it turned out ridiculously strong, wouldn't you throw the first Eve remake in there with it? Just curious. Botched in the sense that what Kayle ended up being strayed very far from the stated vision. They were aiming for an AD carry or support, but ended up with a top lane or jungler. They also had to give her significant buffs in subsequent patches to fix issues. What we have now isn't bad, but it wasn't what we were given or intended when the remake was complete. The Eve remake is too recent for me to really give a comment on, especially as a non-Eve player. I know she can work in the jungle at least, though there are questions about her late game there, so it's obviously not a complete wash. You're actually talking about Kayle's 2nd remake, which is where the confusion is(I agree her 2nd remake was pretty eh). Kayle's first remake took her from one of the least played(maybe the least) champs in the game, that had one of the clunkiest and least coherent kits ever, and made her temporarily into a god; which obviously got her nerfed, where she wallowed around for a bit until Riot decided stat in->stat out passives were something they didn't like and remade her again. I thought you were calling that a botched remake because for 2 weeks before they patched her immediately again, she absolutely wrecked towers, and accidentally killed champions with the splash(and vice versa). That was also back when kayles e magic damage did damage to turrets. I remember a kayle 3 shotting turrets. Hilarious.
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On August 17 2012 15:02 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 14:59 ChaoSbringer wrote:
If Riot really want longevity, what they could do is make a new map (wasn't there concept art for a 5 player, 4 lane map?) and just release champions for that particular map. Repeat ad infinitum. As Chill said, sustainability in terms of purely being able to continue to make money, their current model is just fine. The issue is building a model that's compatible in the long run with being a competitive E-sports game. Content addition ad infinitum unfortunately isn't. And bringing in a completely new map and flushing the champ pool repeatedly is WORSE than simply continuing to add champs for SR in that regard.
I'd assume they'd just go Magic style and slowly ban out older champions as new ones get released.
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Played my first LoL game yesterday, cause a friend asked me too.. (3/7/9)  at least we won...
Well I'm used to DotA so I hope someone would be so kind to help me. Is there a list of LoL heros which are more or less copies of Dota ones? Thanks in advance.
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On August 17 2012 17:08 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 15:02 TheYango wrote:On August 17 2012 14:59 ChaoSbringer wrote:
If Riot really want longevity, what they could do is make a new map (wasn't there concept art for a 5 player, 4 lane map?) and just release champions for that particular map. Repeat ad infinitum. As Chill said, sustainability in terms of purely being able to continue to make money, their current model is just fine. The issue is building a model that's compatible in the long run with being a competitive E-sports game. Content addition ad infinitum unfortunately isn't. And bringing in a completely new map and flushing the champ pool repeatedly is WORSE than simply continuing to add champs for SR in that regard. I'd assume they'd just go Magic style and slowly ban out older champions as new ones get released.
if chogath is ever legacy i will hate you for the rest of my natural life
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On August 17 2012 17:41 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 17:08 iCanada wrote:On August 17 2012 15:02 TheYango wrote:On August 17 2012 14:59 ChaoSbringer wrote:
If Riot really want longevity, what they could do is make a new map (wasn't there concept art for a 5 player, 4 lane map?) and just release champions for that particular map. Repeat ad infinitum. As Chill said, sustainability in terms of purely being able to continue to make money, their current model is just fine. The issue is building a model that's compatible in the long run with being a competitive E-sports game. Content addition ad infinitum unfortunately isn't. And bringing in a completely new map and flushing the champ pool repeatedly is WORSE than simply continuing to add champs for SR in that regard. I'd assume they'd just go Magic style and slowly ban out older champions as new ones get released. if chogath is ever legacy i will hate you for the rest of my natural life
Its okay, eventually Chogath would come back, just need to wait for the reprint in LoL14: Return of the Void.
<_<
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EPT
