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On August 09 2012 01:21 Mondeezy wrote:
So what's the general consensus on jungle quints for Diana? I can't decide between AP Quints or MS Quints.
Also, are you guys building tanky jungle(Udyana), straight damage, or a hybrid?
I really like AP. Haven't messed around with MS yet.
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On August 09 2012 01:27 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 01:21 Mondeezy wrote:
So what's the general consensus on jungle quints for Diana? I can't decide between AP Quints or MS Quints.
Also, are you guys building tanky jungle(Udyana), straight damage, or a hybrid? I really like AP. Haven't messed around with MS yet.
I also like AP. but I only have two rune pages so my options are rather limited unless I decide AD or Diana as my only choice going into a game.
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On August 09 2012 01:24 NEOtheONE wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 01:22 Requizen wrote:On August 09 2012 01:21 NEOtheONE wrote:On August 09 2012 01:18 Requizen wrote:On August 09 2012 01:16 NEOtheONE wrote:On August 09 2012 01:11 Requizen wrote:On August 09 2012 00:31 Seuss wrote:On August 08 2012 23:42 Requizen wrote:
Yeah, I'd really only consider Zhonya if I'm getting fed, because at that point there isn't a huge call for armor (since the enemy's damage will be crap), and you can just snowball with the AP. That would be my "we're winning by quite a bit, let's keep winning" item.
I just don't like Randuin's over FH on her. You already have a good AoE slow on E, so I can see stacking the active with it, but I'd rather have the CDR to get more Es out and have more damage. Plus, I don't think any part of Randuin's is as good of a mid game item as Glacial is, unless you really really need Warden's Mail because they're AD carry is out of control and kiting you, but post-6 kiting should be a non-issue. Glacial definitely stands out as the best armor item for jungle Diana because it's cheap, provides critical stats for Diana, and builds into one of the most important auras in the game. Even if I was fed, I'd rather have Glacial and work my way toward Abyssal or Aegis than grab Zhonya's (which is incidentally exactly what I did last night in the one game where I actually got to jungle Diana). On August 09 2012 00:18 NEOtheONE wrote:On August 09 2012 00:07 AsmodeusXI wrote:On August 09 2012 00:01 NEOtheONE wrote:
[quote]
I honestly use 12/17/1 masteries (after trying multiple different mastery setups) to achieve maximum tankiness in the jungle (armor, MR, minion DR and DR+2, reflect 6 damage to minions, etc.) and still get all the magic pen masteries. I run my mage rune page with magic pen marks (but these could switch), armor seals (in place of the usual mana regen), flat AP glyphs and flat AP quints (you could swap out the AP for MR and HP or something else I just like having more starting shield and damage). It lets me start regrowth pendant+potion and never get low hp in the jungle. I run her jungle very similar to my speed level Shyvana jungle going wraiths > wolves > blue > wraiths > golems > red > gank. Assuming you don't get bogged down in a 3v3 teamfight bot, you can go right back to jungling after your gank or you can back and buy.
She is a little blue buff dependent until she gets 2 mana regen items. I grab philostone and then codex or catalyst, you could do philo and kage's then codex or pick up a haunting guise for maximum magic pen. Catalyst really helps her with the mana issues early on. I do recommend getting max CDR on her if you can because her ult gets down to a 7.5 ish second CD on its own and her Q gets down to a 3.6 second CD, meaning you can jump on people all day with enough mana regen. Boots should probably either be Sorcs or Mercs.
You don't find AS marks to be important at all? I feel like (with my super limited experience) they are really nice to have, especially with her passive. Also, and this may just be a general jungle question, but how do you go wraiths -> wolves -> blue without getting super low, even with the shield? That seems like you're not getting much of a leash at all and will be painful. Well the masteries I use help a ton with that. Actually, I never make use of any sort of leash when doing this route. My health never gets below half for more than a second because I use shield twice on wolves, and I start my potion right before going into blue. Also, I auto attack wraiths before using my shield so my regrowth is recovering my HP while shielded. By the time I get to wolves I am back at full HP. I do this same exact route with shyvana using cloth + 5 pots with very similar results. And I have been doing that route with her (shyvana) for probably a good 50 games by now. I don't think Regrowth start is remotely necessary on Diana. If you did Wolves -> Blue and got a leash from your team you could easily start Boots + 3p and have a much greater chance of actually accomplishing something with that early gank. I'm also leaning toward completely eschewing gp10s on Diana. She has a super-strong mid-game and investing in gp10s undermines that, especially as Philo is insufficient in and of itself to maintain your mana. Chalice alone can fill the role that Philo + Catalyst/Codex is doing for you now at a significantly lower cost. I can understand skipping Philo, but I still think Kage is a good item to get on her. GP10s are generally not as strong as normal items, but 25 AP that pays for itself and opens up 2 decently considerable build paths is nothing to scoff at. 25 AP is pretty good considering it buffs 3 out of 4 abilities and your passive, so you get faster clears, more defense, and stronger ganks out of it. Kage's is such a good item in general because of what it builds into. I'm still partial to my regrowth start because I hate depending on people to leash for me because of all the crazy shit that happens when you try to leash. Also, no one will expect a "blue dependent" jungler to start somewhere other than blue, which means less chance of getting slaughtered at level 1 by an invade. I'd argue that she doesn't even require Regrowth, even without a leash. With a Boots3 or even Amp Tome (not recommended, but for comparison) start, she'll come out at level 4 with >70% health ezpz. Okay, I want replay proof of this because right now I call BS. And remember in order to get to 4 you have to go wraiths > wolves > blue > wraiths > golems > red and come out with > 70% health. Good luck with that. Wolves > Blue > Wraiths > Wolves > Red > Wraiths gets you 4 as well, and feels a lot safer, especially because you don't fight golems. Right because fighting blue at level 1 without a leash is safer than fighting golems at level 3. I'm still calling BS.
Probably not with Amp opening, but with boots3 I'd say sure. W start kills wolves before taking too much damage, chug potions and spam W at blue. With blue up and level 2, Wraiths > Wolves goes down stupid fast, you hit 3. WQW -> Red maybe gets you a bit low, depending on how much damage you took, but you'll kill it way too fast to notice, and there's no issue clearing Wraiths after.
Comparatively, Golems are much stronger than Wolves or Wraiths, so why pick a route where you have to fight the strongest non-buff camp at all?
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On August 09 2012 01:24 NEOtheONE wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 01:22 Requizen wrote:On August 09 2012 01:21 NEOtheONE wrote:On August 09 2012 01:18 Requizen wrote:On August 09 2012 01:16 NEOtheONE wrote:On August 09 2012 01:11 Requizen wrote:On August 09 2012 00:31 Seuss wrote:On August 08 2012 23:42 Requizen wrote:
Yeah, I'd really only consider Zhonya if I'm getting fed, because at that point there isn't a huge call for armor (since the enemy's damage will be crap), and you can just snowball with the AP. That would be my "we're winning by quite a bit, let's keep winning" item.
I just don't like Randuin's over FH on her. You already have a good AoE slow on E, so I can see stacking the active with it, but I'd rather have the CDR to get more Es out and have more damage. Plus, I don't think any part of Randuin's is as good of a mid game item as Glacial is, unless you really really need Warden's Mail because they're AD carry is out of control and kiting you, but post-6 kiting should be a non-issue. Glacial definitely stands out as the best armor item for jungle Diana because it's cheap, provides critical stats for Diana, and builds into one of the most important auras in the game. Even if I was fed, I'd rather have Glacial and work my way toward Abyssal or Aegis than grab Zhonya's (which is incidentally exactly what I did last night in the one game where I actually got to jungle Diana). On August 09 2012 00:18 NEOtheONE wrote:On August 09 2012 00:07 AsmodeusXI wrote:On August 09 2012 00:01 NEOtheONE wrote:
[quote]
I honestly use 12/17/1 masteries (after trying multiple different mastery setups) to achieve maximum tankiness in the jungle (armor, MR, minion DR and DR+2, reflect 6 damage to minions, etc.) and still get all the magic pen masteries. I run my mage rune page with magic pen marks (but these could switch), armor seals (in place of the usual mana regen), flat AP glyphs and flat AP quints (you could swap out the AP for MR and HP or something else I just like having more starting shield and damage). It lets me start regrowth pendant+potion and never get low hp in the jungle. I run her jungle very similar to my speed level Shyvana jungle going wraiths > wolves > blue > wraiths > golems > red > gank. Assuming you don't get bogged down in a 3v3 teamfight bot, you can go right back to jungling after your gank or you can back and buy.
She is a little blue buff dependent until she gets 2 mana regen items. I grab philostone and then codex or catalyst, you could do philo and kage's then codex or pick up a haunting guise for maximum magic pen. Catalyst really helps her with the mana issues early on. I do recommend getting max CDR on her if you can because her ult gets down to a 7.5 ish second CD on its own and her Q gets down to a 3.6 second CD, meaning you can jump on people all day with enough mana regen. Boots should probably either be Sorcs or Mercs.
You don't find AS marks to be important at all? I feel like (with my super limited experience) they are really nice to have, especially with her passive. Also, and this may just be a general jungle question, but how do you go wraiths -> wolves -> blue without getting super low, even with the shield? That seems like you're not getting much of a leash at all and will be painful. Well the masteries I use help a ton with that. Actually, I never make use of any sort of leash when doing this route. My health never gets below half for more than a second because I use shield twice on wolves, and I start my potion right before going into blue. Also, I auto attack wraiths before using my shield so my regrowth is recovering my HP while shielded. By the time I get to wolves I am back at full HP. I do this same exact route with shyvana using cloth + 5 pots with very similar results. And I have been doing that route with her (shyvana) for probably a good 50 games by now. I don't think Regrowth start is remotely necessary on Diana. If you did Wolves -> Blue and got a leash from your team you could easily start Boots + 3p and have a much greater chance of actually accomplishing something with that early gank. I'm also leaning toward completely eschewing gp10s on Diana. She has a super-strong mid-game and investing in gp10s undermines that, especially as Philo is insufficient in and of itself to maintain your mana. Chalice alone can fill the role that Philo + Catalyst/Codex is doing for you now at a significantly lower cost. I can understand skipping Philo, but I still think Kage is a good item to get on her. GP10s are generally not as strong as normal items, but 25 AP that pays for itself and opens up 2 decently considerable build paths is nothing to scoff at. 25 AP is pretty good considering it buffs 3 out of 4 abilities and your passive, so you get faster clears, more defense, and stronger ganks out of it. Kage's is such a good item in general because of what it builds into. I'm still partial to my regrowth start because I hate depending on people to leash for me because of all the crazy shit that happens when you try to leash. Also, no one will expect a "blue dependent" jungler to start somewhere other than blue, which means less chance of getting slaughtered at level 1 by an invade. I'd argue that she doesn't even require Regrowth, even without a leash. With a Boots3 or even Amp Tome (not recommended, but for comparison) start, she'll come out at level 4 with >70% health ezpz. Okay, I want replay proof of this because right now I call BS. And remember in order to get to 4 you have to go wraiths > wolves > blue > wraiths > golems > red and come out with > 70% health. Good luck with that. Wolves > Blue > Wraiths > Wolves > Red > Wraiths gets you 4 as well, and feels a lot safer, especially because you don't fight golems. Right because fighting blue at level 1 without a leash is safer than fighting golems at level 3. I'm still calling BS.
Double golems is pretty strong, within 3dps of blue camp. Also, since the two small lizards are two targets you don't target with less health than Little Brother Golem, they get taken out faster by passive+shield orbs than small golem does, their damage is cleared off faster. In addition, the health difference between A.Golem and Big Brother Golem is ~= to the damage of a level1 smite. Take into account things like reduced minion damage from 3 sources instead of two and it gets even closer.
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On August 09 2012 01:30 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 01:24 NEOtheONE wrote:On August 09 2012 01:22 Requizen wrote:On August 09 2012 01:21 NEOtheONE wrote:On August 09 2012 01:18 Requizen wrote:On August 09 2012 01:16 NEOtheONE wrote:On August 09 2012 01:11 Requizen wrote:On August 09 2012 00:31 Seuss wrote:On August 08 2012 23:42 Requizen wrote:
Yeah, I'd really only consider Zhonya if I'm getting fed, because at that point there isn't a huge call for armor (since the enemy's damage will be crap), and you can just snowball with the AP. That would be my "we're winning by quite a bit, let's keep winning" item.
I just don't like Randuin's over FH on her. You already have a good AoE slow on E, so I can see stacking the active with it, but I'd rather have the CDR to get more Es out and have more damage. Plus, I don't think any part of Randuin's is as good of a mid game item as Glacial is, unless you really really need Warden's Mail because they're AD carry is out of control and kiting you, but post-6 kiting should be a non-issue. Glacial definitely stands out as the best armor item for jungle Diana because it's cheap, provides critical stats for Diana, and builds into one of the most important auras in the game. Even if I was fed, I'd rather have Glacial and work my way toward Abyssal or Aegis than grab Zhonya's (which is incidentally exactly what I did last night in the one game where I actually got to jungle Diana). On August 09 2012 00:18 NEOtheONE wrote:On August 09 2012 00:07 AsmodeusXI wrote:
[quote]
You don't find AS marks to be important at all? I feel like (with my super limited experience) they are really nice to have, especially with her passive. Also, and this may just be a general jungle question, but how do you go wraiths -> wolves -> blue without getting super low, even with the shield? That seems like you're not getting much of a leash at all and will be painful.
Well the masteries I use help a ton with that. Actually, I never make use of any sort of leash when doing this route. My health never gets below half for more than a second because I use shield twice on wolves, and I start my potion right before going into blue. Also, I auto attack wraiths before using my shield so my regrowth is recovering my HP while shielded. By the time I get to wolves I am back at full HP. I do this same exact route with shyvana using cloth + 5 pots with very similar results. And I have been doing that route with her (shyvana) for probably a good 50 games by now. I don't think Regrowth start is remotely necessary on Diana. If you did Wolves -> Blue and got a leash from your team you could easily start Boots + 3p and have a much greater chance of actually accomplishing something with that early gank. I'm also leaning toward completely eschewing gp10s on Diana. She has a super-strong mid-game and investing in gp10s undermines that, especially as Philo is insufficient in and of itself to maintain your mana. Chalice alone can fill the role that Philo + Catalyst/Codex is doing for you now at a significantly lower cost. I can understand skipping Philo, but I still think Kage is a good item to get on her. GP10s are generally not as strong as normal items, but 25 AP that pays for itself and opens up 2 decently considerable build paths is nothing to scoff at. 25 AP is pretty good considering it buffs 3 out of 4 abilities and your passive, so you get faster clears, more defense, and stronger ganks out of it. Kage's is such a good item in general because of what it builds into. I'm still partial to my regrowth start because I hate depending on people to leash for me because of all the crazy shit that happens when you try to leash. Also, no one will expect a "blue dependent" jungler to start somewhere other than blue, which means less chance of getting slaughtered at level 1 by an invade. I'd argue that she doesn't even require Regrowth, even without a leash. With a Boots3 or even Amp Tome (not recommended, but for comparison) start, she'll come out at level 4 with >70% health ezpz. Okay, I want replay proof of this because right now I call BS. And remember in order to get to 4 you have to go wraiths > wolves > blue > wraiths > golems > red and come out with > 70% health. Good luck with that. Wolves > Blue > Wraiths > Wolves > Red > Wraiths gets you 4 as well, and feels a lot safer, especially because you don't fight golems. Right because fighting blue at level 1 without a leash is safer than fighting golems at level 3. I'm still calling BS. Probably not with Amp opening, but with boots3 I'd say sure. W start kills wolves before taking too much damage, chug potions and spam W at blue. With blue up and level 2, Wraiths > Wolves goes down stupid fast, you hit 3. WQW -> Red maybe gets you a bit low, depending on how much damage you took, but you'll kill it way too fast to notice, and there's no issue clearing Wraiths after. Comparatively, Golems are much stronger than Wolves or Wraiths, so why pick a route where you have to fight the strongest non-buff camp at all?
Honestly, I consider wolves to be the roughest camp because golems at level 3 are easy mode. Lol, my HP is at its lowest after wolves for my route. Golems barely hurt as I always focus the weaker one first so I get the bonus HP before going into red. Also golems don't crit correct? I swear I cannot go through wolves without getting critted at least 2 times. Also, W doesn't kill wolves before you take a good chunk of damage. Like I said my hp is lowest after/during wolves. And I have done this route 100+ times already between Nocturne, Diana, and Shyvana, and golems is never ever the problem area.
Also total route time is a big consideration. I do the entire route with Shyvana in under 4 minutes into the game. I'm not entirely sure what my clear time for Diana was but I think it was around 4:10.
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I don't know why you're jungling with the assumption that you're not getting a leash. I don't get it at all.
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On August 09 2012 01:24 NEOtheONE wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 01:22 Requizen wrote:On August 09 2012 01:21 NEOtheONE wrote:On August 09 2012 01:18 Requizen wrote:On August 09 2012 01:16 NEOtheONE wrote:On August 09 2012 01:11 Requizen wrote:On August 09 2012 00:31 Seuss wrote:On August 08 2012 23:42 Requizen wrote:
Yeah, I'd really only consider Zhonya if I'm getting fed, because at that point there isn't a huge call for armor (since the enemy's damage will be crap), and you can just snowball with the AP. That would be my "we're winning by quite a bit, let's keep winning" item.
I just don't like Randuin's over FH on her. You already have a good AoE slow on E, so I can see stacking the active with it, but I'd rather have the CDR to get more Es out and have more damage. Plus, I don't think any part of Randuin's is as good of a mid game item as Glacial is, unless you really really need Warden's Mail because they're AD carry is out of control and kiting you, but post-6 kiting should be a non-issue. Glacial definitely stands out as the best armor item for jungle Diana because it's cheap, provides critical stats for Diana, and builds into one of the most important auras in the game. Even if I was fed, I'd rather have Glacial and work my way toward Abyssal or Aegis than grab Zhonya's (which is incidentally exactly what I did last night in the one game where I actually got to jungle Diana). On August 09 2012 00:18 NEOtheONE wrote:On August 09 2012 00:07 AsmodeusXI wrote:On August 09 2012 00:01 NEOtheONE wrote:
[quote]
I honestly use 12/17/1 masteries (after trying multiple different mastery setups) to achieve maximum tankiness in the jungle (armor, MR, minion DR and DR+2, reflect 6 damage to minions, etc.) and still get all the magic pen masteries. I run my mage rune page with magic pen marks (but these could switch), armor seals (in place of the usual mana regen), flat AP glyphs and flat AP quints (you could swap out the AP for MR and HP or something else I just like having more starting shield and damage). It lets me start regrowth pendant+potion and never get low hp in the jungle. I run her jungle very similar to my speed level Shyvana jungle going wraiths > wolves > blue > wraiths > golems > red > gank. Assuming you don't get bogged down in a 3v3 teamfight bot, you can go right back to jungling after your gank or you can back and buy.
She is a little blue buff dependent until she gets 2 mana regen items. I grab philostone and then codex or catalyst, you could do philo and kage's then codex or pick up a haunting guise for maximum magic pen. Catalyst really helps her with the mana issues early on. I do recommend getting max CDR on her if you can because her ult gets down to a 7.5 ish second CD on its own and her Q gets down to a 3.6 second CD, meaning you can jump on people all day with enough mana regen. Boots should probably either be Sorcs or Mercs.
You don't find AS marks to be important at all? I feel like (with my super limited experience) they are really nice to have, especially with her passive. Also, and this may just be a general jungle question, but how do you go wraiths -> wolves -> blue without getting super low, even with the shield? That seems like you're not getting much of a leash at all and will be painful. Well the masteries I use help a ton with that. Actually, I never make use of any sort of leash when doing this route. My health never gets below half for more than a second because I use shield twice on wolves, and I start my potion right before going into blue. Also, I auto attack wraiths before using my shield so my regrowth is recovering my HP while shielded. By the time I get to wolves I am back at full HP. I do this same exact route with shyvana using cloth + 5 pots with very similar results. And I have been doing that route with her (shyvana) for probably a good 50 games by now. I don't think Regrowth start is remotely necessary on Diana. If you did Wolves -> Blue and got a leash from your team you could easily start Boots + 3p and have a much greater chance of actually accomplishing something with that early gank. I'm also leaning toward completely eschewing gp10s on Diana. She has a super-strong mid-game and investing in gp10s undermines that, especially as Philo is insufficient in and of itself to maintain your mana. Chalice alone can fill the role that Philo + Catalyst/Codex is doing for you now at a significantly lower cost. I can understand skipping Philo, but I still think Kage is a good item to get on her. GP10s are generally not as strong as normal items, but 25 AP that pays for itself and opens up 2 decently considerable build paths is nothing to scoff at. 25 AP is pretty good considering it buffs 3 out of 4 abilities and your passive, so you get faster clears, more defense, and stronger ganks out of it. Kage's is such a good item in general because of what it builds into. I'm still partial to my regrowth start because I hate depending on people to leash for me because of all the crazy shit that happens when you try to leash. Also, no one will expect a "blue dependent" jungler to start somewhere other than blue, which means less chance of getting slaughtered at level 1 by an invade. I'd argue that she doesn't even require Regrowth, even without a leash. With a Boots3 or even Amp Tome (not recommended, but for comparison) start, she'll come out at level 4 with >70% health ezpz. Okay, I want replay proof of this because right now I call BS. And remember in order to get to 4 you have to go wraiths > wolves > blue > wraiths > golems > red and come out with > 70% health. Good luck with that. Wolves > Blue > Wraiths > Wolves > Red > Wraiths gets you 4 as well, and feels a lot safer, especially because you don't fight golems. Right because fighting blue at level 1 after fighting wolves without a leash for either is safer than fighting golems at level 3. I'm still calling BS.
Golems do more damage than the buffs, anytime i can avoid doing golems on my first clear i do it.
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On August 09 2012 01:45 koreasilver wrote:
I don't know why you're jungling with the assumption that you're not getting a leash. I don't get it at all.
Because Solo Queue, enough said.
On August 09 2012 01:46 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 01:24 NEOtheONE wrote:On August 09 2012 01:22 Requizen wrote:On August 09 2012 01:21 NEOtheONE wrote:On August 09 2012 01:18 Requizen wrote:On August 09 2012 01:16 NEOtheONE wrote:On August 09 2012 01:11 Requizen wrote:On August 09 2012 00:31 Seuss wrote:On August 08 2012 23:42 Requizen wrote:
Yeah, I'd really only consider Zhonya if I'm getting fed, because at that point there isn't a huge call for armor (since the enemy's damage will be crap), and you can just snowball with the AP. That would be my "we're winning by quite a bit, let's keep winning" item.
I just don't like Randuin's over FH on her. You already have a good AoE slow on E, so I can see stacking the active with it, but I'd rather have the CDR to get more Es out and have more damage. Plus, I don't think any part of Randuin's is as good of a mid game item as Glacial is, unless you really really need Warden's Mail because they're AD carry is out of control and kiting you, but post-6 kiting should be a non-issue. Glacial definitely stands out as the best armor item for jungle Diana because it's cheap, provides critical stats for Diana, and builds into one of the most important auras in the game. Even if I was fed, I'd rather have Glacial and work my way toward Abyssal or Aegis than grab Zhonya's (which is incidentally exactly what I did last night in the one game where I actually got to jungle Diana). On August 09 2012 00:18 NEOtheONE wrote:On August 09 2012 00:07 AsmodeusXI wrote:
[quote]
You don't find AS marks to be important at all? I feel like (with my super limited experience) they are really nice to have, especially with her passive. Also, and this may just be a general jungle question, but how do you go wraiths -> wolves -> blue without getting super low, even with the shield? That seems like you're not getting much of a leash at all and will be painful.
Well the masteries I use help a ton with that. Actually, I never make use of any sort of leash when doing this route. My health never gets below half for more than a second because I use shield twice on wolves, and I start my potion right before going into blue. Also, I auto attack wraiths before using my shield so my regrowth is recovering my HP while shielded. By the time I get to wolves I am back at full HP. I do this same exact route with shyvana using cloth + 5 pots with very similar results. And I have been doing that route with her (shyvana) for probably a good 50 games by now. I don't think Regrowth start is remotely necessary on Diana. If you did Wolves -> Blue and got a leash from your team you could easily start Boots + 3p and have a much greater chance of actually accomplishing something with that early gank. I'm also leaning toward completely eschewing gp10s on Diana. She has a super-strong mid-game and investing in gp10s undermines that, especially as Philo is insufficient in and of itself to maintain your mana. Chalice alone can fill the role that Philo + Catalyst/Codex is doing for you now at a significantly lower cost. I can understand skipping Philo, but I still think Kage is a good item to get on her. GP10s are generally not as strong as normal items, but 25 AP that pays for itself and opens up 2 decently considerable build paths is nothing to scoff at. 25 AP is pretty good considering it buffs 3 out of 4 abilities and your passive, so you get faster clears, more defense, and stronger ganks out of it. Kage's is such a good item in general because of what it builds into. I'm still partial to my regrowth start because I hate depending on people to leash for me because of all the crazy shit that happens when you try to leash. Also, no one will expect a "blue dependent" jungler to start somewhere other than blue, which means less chance of getting slaughtered at level 1 by an invade. I'd argue that she doesn't even require Regrowth, even without a leash. With a Boots3 or even Amp Tome (not recommended, but for comparison) start, she'll come out at level 4 with >70% health ezpz. Okay, I want replay proof of this because right now I call BS. And remember in order to get to 4 you have to go wraiths > wolves > blue > wraiths > golems > red and come out with > 70% health. Good luck with that. Wolves > Blue > Wraiths > Wolves > Red > Wraiths gets you 4 as well, and feels a lot safer, especially because you don't fight golems. Right because fighting blue at level 1 after fighting wolves without a leash for either is safer than fighting golems at level 3. I'm still calling BS. Golems do more damage than the buffs, anytime i can avoid doing golems on my first clear i do it.
Apparently I am the only person that doesn't have problems with golems then.
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On August 09 2012 01:45 koreasilver wrote:
I don't know why you're jungling with the assumption that you're not getting a leash. I don't get it at all.
Because solo queue is solo queue.
Either way, Boots is probably my preferred start, seeing as her ganks need all the help they can get. Still not sure as to MS or AP quints, though.
Edit: Ergh, Rune Pages so expensive for IP, almost considering RP buying them just so I don't have to wait and keep switching them.
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On August 09 2012 01:46 NEOtheONE wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 01:45 koreasilver wrote:
I don't know why you're jungling with the assumption that you're not getting a leash. I don't get it at all. Because Solo Queue, enough said. Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 01:46 arb wrote:On August 09 2012 01:24 NEOtheONE wrote:On August 09 2012 01:22 Requizen wrote:On August 09 2012 01:21 NEOtheONE wrote:On August 09 2012 01:18 Requizen wrote:On August 09 2012 01:16 NEOtheONE wrote:On August 09 2012 01:11 Requizen wrote:On August 09 2012 00:31 Seuss wrote:On August 08 2012 23:42 Requizen wrote:
Yeah, I'd really only consider Zhonya if I'm getting fed, because at that point there isn't a huge call for armor (since the enemy's damage will be crap), and you can just snowball with the AP. That would be my "we're winning by quite a bit, let's keep winning" item.
I just don't like Randuin's over FH on her. You already have a good AoE slow on E, so I can see stacking the active with it, but I'd rather have the CDR to get more Es out and have more damage. Plus, I don't think any part of Randuin's is as good of a mid game item as Glacial is, unless you really really need Warden's Mail because they're AD carry is out of control and kiting you, but post-6 kiting should be a non-issue. Glacial definitely stands out as the best armor item for jungle Diana because it's cheap, provides critical stats for Diana, and builds into one of the most important auras in the game. Even if I was fed, I'd rather have Glacial and work my way toward Abyssal or Aegis than grab Zhonya's (which is incidentally exactly what I did last night in the one game where I actually got to jungle Diana). On August 09 2012 00:18 NEOtheONE wrote:
[quote]
Well the masteries I use help a ton with that. Actually, I never make use of any sort of leash when doing this route. My health never gets below half for more than a second because I use shield twice on wolves, and I start my potion right before going into blue. Also, I auto attack wraiths before using my shield so my regrowth is recovering my HP while shielded. By the time I get to wolves I am back at full HP. I do this same exact route with shyvana using cloth + 5 pots with very similar results. And I have been doing that route with her (shyvana) for probably a good 50 games by now.
I don't think Regrowth start is remotely necessary on Diana. If you did Wolves -> Blue and got a leash from your team you could easily start Boots + 3p and have a much greater chance of actually accomplishing something with that early gank. I'm also leaning toward completely eschewing gp10s on Diana. She has a super-strong mid-game and investing in gp10s undermines that, especially as Philo is insufficient in and of itself to maintain your mana. Chalice alone can fill the role that Philo + Catalyst/Codex is doing for you now at a significantly lower cost. I can understand skipping Philo, but I still think Kage is a good item to get on her. GP10s are generally not as strong as normal items, but 25 AP that pays for itself and opens up 2 decently considerable build paths is nothing to scoff at. 25 AP is pretty good considering it buffs 3 out of 4 abilities and your passive, so you get faster clears, more defense, and stronger ganks out of it. Kage's is such a good item in general because of what it builds into. I'm still partial to my regrowth start because I hate depending on people to leash for me because of all the crazy shit that happens when you try to leash. Also, no one will expect a "blue dependent" jungler to start somewhere other than blue, which means less chance of getting slaughtered at level 1 by an invade. I'd argue that she doesn't even require Regrowth, even without a leash. With a Boots3 or even Amp Tome (not recommended, but for comparison) start, she'll come out at level 4 with >70% health ezpz. Okay, I want replay proof of this because right now I call BS. And remember in order to get to 4 you have to go wraiths > wolves > blue > wraiths > golems > red and come out with > 70% health. Good luck with that. Wolves > Blue > Wraiths > Wolves > Red > Wraiths gets you 4 as well, and feels a lot safer, especially because you don't fight golems. Right because fighting blue at level 1 after fighting wolves without a leash for either is safer than fighting golems at level 3. I'm still calling BS. Golems do more damage than the buffs, anytime i can avoid doing golems on my first clear i do it. Apparently I am the only person that doesn't have problems with golems then.
They're also way out of the way at that, when you could just do the easier route and achieve the same thing. truthfully, not having smite up to kill the big one takes away alot of time also, especially when you could just walk to wolves and kill them twice as fast
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On August 09 2012 01:47 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 01:45 koreasilver wrote:
I don't know why you're jungling with the assumption that you're not getting a leash. I don't get it at all. Because solo queue is solo queue. Either way, Boots is probably my preferred start, seeing as her ganks need all the help they can get. Still not sure as to MS or AP quints, though.
Well we agree on one thing. If boots works for you, then great, and yeah it does help with ganks I admit that. I just think of Diana like WW, lame ganks until 6. so I solve it by getting to 6 asap. As I never have to back by starting the regrowth pendant, I can keep clearing until I hit 6 if I so choose and lanes aren't very gankable.
On August 09 2012 01:51 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 01:46 NEOtheONE wrote:On August 09 2012 01:45 koreasilver wrote:
I don't know why you're jungling with the assumption that you're not getting a leash. I don't get it at all. Because Solo Queue, enough said. On August 09 2012 01:46 arb wrote:On August 09 2012 01:24 NEOtheONE wrote:On August 09 2012 01:22 Requizen wrote:On August 09 2012 01:21 NEOtheONE wrote:On August 09 2012 01:18 Requizen wrote:On August 09 2012 01:16 NEOtheONE wrote:On August 09 2012 01:11 Requizen wrote:On August 09 2012 00:31 Seuss wrote:
[quote]
Glacial definitely stands out as the best armor item for jungle Diana because it's cheap, provides critical stats for Diana, and builds into one of the most important auras in the game. Even if I was fed, I'd rather have Glacial and work my way toward Abyssal or Aegis than grab Zhonya's (which is incidentally exactly what I did last night in the one game where I actually got to jungle Diana).
[quote]
I don't think Regrowth start is remotely necessary on Diana. If you did Wolves -> Blue and got a leash from your team you could easily start Boots + 3p and have a much greater chance of actually accomplishing something with that early gank.
I'm also leaning toward completely eschewing gp10s on Diana. She has a super-strong mid-game and investing in gp10s undermines that, especially as Philo is insufficient in and of itself to maintain your mana. Chalice alone can fill the role that Philo + Catalyst/Codex is doing for you now at a significantly lower cost. I can understand skipping Philo, but I still think Kage is a good item to get on her. GP10s are generally not as strong as normal items, but 25 AP that pays for itself and opens up 2 decently considerable build paths is nothing to scoff at. 25 AP is pretty good considering it buffs 3 out of 4 abilities and your passive, so you get faster clears, more defense, and stronger ganks out of it. Kage's is such a good item in general because of what it builds into. I'm still partial to my regrowth start because I hate depending on people to leash for me because of all the crazy shit that happens when you try to leash. Also, no one will expect a "blue dependent" jungler to start somewhere other than blue, which means less chance of getting slaughtered at level 1 by an invade. I'd argue that she doesn't even require Regrowth, even without a leash. With a Boots3 or even Amp Tome (not recommended, but for comparison) start, she'll come out at level 4 with >70% health ezpz. Okay, I want replay proof of this because right now I call BS. And remember in order to get to 4 you have to go wraiths > wolves > blue > wraiths > golems > red and come out with > 70% health. Good luck with that. Wolves > Blue > Wraiths > Wolves > Red > Wraiths gets you 4 as well, and feels a lot safer, especially because you don't fight golems. Right because fighting blue at level 1 after fighting wolves without a leash for either is safer than fighting golems at level 3. I'm still calling BS. Golems do more damage than the buffs, anytime i can avoid doing golems on my first clear i do it. Apparently I am the only person that doesn't have problems with golems then. They're also way out of the way at that, when you could just do the easier route and achieve the same thing. truthfully, not having smite up to kill the big one takes away alot of time also, especially when you could just walk to wolves and kill them twice as fast
I still hit level 4 right around 4 min. With Shyvana and Diana, I can actually keep at even levels with solo lanes if focus on clearing and don't sit around waiting for an opening to gank. I gank when lanes are pushed to our turrets. I find being the same level as the solo lanes to be a huge advantage which is why I love my route.
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United States15536 Posts
On August 09 2012 01:47 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 01:45 koreasilver wrote:
I don't know why you're jungling with the assumption that you're not getting a leash. I don't get it at all. Because solo queue is solo queue. Either way, Boots is probably my preferred start, seeing as her ganks need all the help they can get. Still not sure as to MS or AP quints, though. Edit: Ergh, Rune Pages so expensive for IP, almost considering RP buying them just so I don't have to wait and keep switching them.
Oh just buy a bundle already. You certainly seem to play enough to warrant expediting your progress with moar and moar builds (judging by contribution frequency to this thread). I've gotten over the "not paying for LoL" thing because I play it enough to make my gaming experience better with RP. Maybe you don't need it if you're super stocked on IP, but I'm really happy with my actual purchases.
I know there are going to be people who just say wait, but I'm way more in to instant gratification if the cost isn't TOO ridiculous. 
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Wolves do random damage based on their crits, but in general double golems hit hard and its only worth killing if you have smite up or you have a lot of AP early on to clear it
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On August 09 2012 00:53 AsmodeusXI wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 00:31 Seuss wrote:On August 08 2012 23:42 Requizen wrote:
Yeah, I'd really only consider Zhonya if I'm getting fed, because at that point there isn't a huge call for armor (since the enemy's damage will be crap), and you can just snowball with the AP. That would be my "we're winning by quite a bit, let's keep winning" item.
I just don't like Randuin's over FH on her. You already have a good AoE slow on E, so I can see stacking the active with it, but I'd rather have the CDR to get more Es out and have more damage. Plus, I don't think any part of Randuin's is as good of a mid game item as Glacial is, unless you really really need Warden's Mail because they're AD carry is out of control and kiting you, but post-6 kiting should be a non-issue. Glacial definitely stands out as the best armor item for jungle Diana because it's cheap, provides critical stats for Diana, and builds into one of the most important auras in the game. Even if I was fed, I'd rather have Glacial and work my way toward Abyssal or Aegis than grab Zhonya's (which is incidentally exactly what I did last night in the one game where I actually got to jungle Diana). On August 09 2012 00:18 NEOtheONE wrote:On August 09 2012 00:07 AsmodeusXI wrote:On August 09 2012 00:01 NEOtheONE wrote:On August 08 2012 23:32 AsmodeusXI wrote:
Yeahhh... Now that I think about it, I guess playing her top would get dicey for the same (or one of the same) reasons that Fiora is so weak: Dat lack of escape. Maybe I'll try her mid, but damn if I REALLY don't wanna learn mid... It's one of the only roles I play less than jungle. Plus, being tanky and jumping in is definitely the play style I like and it sounds like that's just Diana through and through when played properly.
To that effect, I think I'll try again with her with some more Udyr like runes/tank masteries, then do the whole philo->kages->abyssal->FH thing and see what happens. Gotta work on my ganking too. :/ I honestly use 12/17/1 masteries (after trying multiple different mastery setups) to achieve maximum tankiness in the jungle (armor, MR, minion DR and DR+2, reflect 6 damage to minions, etc.) and still get all the magic pen masteries. I run my mage rune page with magic pen marks (but these could switch), armor seals (in place of the usual mana regen), flat AP glyphs and flat AP quints (you could swap out the AP for MR and HP or something else I just like having more starting shield and damage). It lets me start regrowth pendant+potion and never get low hp in the jungle. I run her jungle very similar to my speed level Shyvana jungle going wraiths > wolves > blue > wraiths > golems > red > gank. Assuming you don't get bogged down in a 3v3 teamfight bot, you can go right back to jungling after your gank or you can back and buy. She is a little blue buff dependent until she gets 2 mana regen items. I grab philostone and then codex or catalyst, you could do philo and kage's then codex or pick up a haunting guise for maximum magic pen. Catalyst really helps her with the mana issues early on. I do recommend getting max CDR on her if you can because her ult gets down to a 7.5 ish second CD on its own and her Q gets down to a 3.6 second CD, meaning you can jump on people all day with enough mana regen. Boots should probably either be Sorcs or Mercs. You don't find AS marks to be important at all? I feel like (with my super limited experience) they are really nice to have, especially with her passive. Also, and this may just be a general jungle question, but how do you go wraiths -> wolves -> blue without getting super low, even with the shield? That seems like you're not getting much of a leash at all and will be painful. Well the masteries I use help a ton with that. Actually, I never make use of any sort of leash when doing this route. My health never gets below half for more than a second because I use shield twice on wolves, and I start my potion right before going into blue. Also, I auto attack wraiths before using my shield so my regrowth is recovering my HP while shielded. By the time I get to wolves I am back at full HP. I do this same exact route with shyvana using cloth + 5 pots with very similar results. And I have been doing that route with her (shyvana) for probably a good 50 games by now. I don't think Regrowth start is remotely necessary on Diana. If you did Wolves -> Blue and got a leash from your team you could easily start Boots + 3p and have a much greater chance of actually accomplishing something with that early gank. I'm also leaning toward completely eschewing gp10s on Diana. She has a super-strong mid-game and investing in gp10s undermines that, especially as Philo is insufficient in and of itself to maintain your mana. Chalice alone can fill the role that Philo + Catalyst/Codex is doing for you now at a significantly lower cost. It sounds like you're also starting with tankyish runes/masteries... What's your setup? And from there, what's the mid game plan? Boots->chalice, then what? DRings on the way to Abyssal/Glacial or just straight to Blasting Wand?
11/19/0, AS Quints/Marks and Armor Seals/Glyphs, but you could easily do something more standard like MS/AS/Armor/MR.
Build plan is Boots 1 -> Chalice -> Glacial + Boots 2 -> Aegis/Abyssal. Diana has such high base damage that CDR/mana contributes more to her jungling speed and gank strength than AP. Chalice alone is enough mana regen so you don't need DRings.
On August 09 2012 01:33 NEOtheONE wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 01:30 Requizen wrote:On August 09 2012 01:24 NEOtheONE wrote:On August 09 2012 01:22 Requizen wrote:On August 09 2012 01:21 NEOtheONE wrote:On August 09 2012 01:18 Requizen wrote:On August 09 2012 01:16 NEOtheONE wrote:On August 09 2012 01:11 Requizen wrote:On August 09 2012 00:31 Seuss wrote:On August 08 2012 23:42 Requizen wrote:
Yeah, I'd really only consider Zhonya if I'm getting fed, because at that point there isn't a huge call for armor (since the enemy's damage will be crap), and you can just snowball with the AP. That would be my "we're winning by quite a bit, let's keep winning" item.
I just don't like Randuin's over FH on her. You already have a good AoE slow on E, so I can see stacking the active with it, but I'd rather have the CDR to get more Es out and have more damage. Plus, I don't think any part of Randuin's is as good of a mid game item as Glacial is, unless you really really need Warden's Mail because they're AD carry is out of control and kiting you, but post-6 kiting should be a non-issue. Glacial definitely stands out as the best armor item for jungle Diana because it's cheap, provides critical stats for Diana, and builds into one of the most important auras in the game. Even if I was fed, I'd rather have Glacial and work my way toward Abyssal or Aegis than grab Zhonya's (which is incidentally exactly what I did last night in the one game where I actually got to jungle Diana). On August 09 2012 00:18 NEOtheONE wrote:
[quote]
Well the masteries I use help a ton with that. Actually, I never make use of any sort of leash when doing this route. My health never gets below half for more than a second because I use shield twice on wolves, and I start my potion right before going into blue. Also, I auto attack wraiths before using my shield so my regrowth is recovering my HP while shielded. By the time I get to wolves I am back at full HP. I do this same exact route with shyvana using cloth + 5 pots with very similar results. And I have been doing that route with her (shyvana) for probably a good 50 games by now.
I don't think Regrowth start is remotely necessary on Diana. If you did Wolves -> Blue and got a leash from your team you could easily start Boots + 3p and have a much greater chance of actually accomplishing something with that early gank. I'm also leaning toward completely eschewing gp10s on Diana. She has a super-strong mid-game and investing in gp10s undermines that, especially as Philo is insufficient in and of itself to maintain your mana. Chalice alone can fill the role that Philo + Catalyst/Codex is doing for you now at a significantly lower cost. I can understand skipping Philo, but I still think Kage is a good item to get on her. GP10s are generally not as strong as normal items, but 25 AP that pays for itself and opens up 2 decently considerable build paths is nothing to scoff at. 25 AP is pretty good considering it buffs 3 out of 4 abilities and your passive, so you get faster clears, more defense, and stronger ganks out of it. Kage's is such a good item in general because of what it builds into. I'm still partial to my regrowth start because I hate depending on people to leash for me because of all the crazy shit that happens when you try to leash. Also, no one will expect a "blue dependent" jungler to start somewhere other than blue, which means less chance of getting slaughtered at level 1 by an invade. I'd argue that she doesn't even require Regrowth, even without a leash. With a Boots3 or even Amp Tome (not recommended, but for comparison) start, she'll come out at level 4 with >70% health ezpz. Okay, I want replay proof of this because right now I call BS. And remember in order to get to 4 you have to go wraiths > wolves > blue > wraiths > golems > red and come out with > 70% health. Good luck with that. Wolves > Blue > Wraiths > Wolves > Red > Wraiths gets you 4 as well, and feels a lot safer, especially because you don't fight golems. Right because fighting blue at level 1 without a leash is safer than fighting golems at level 3. I'm still calling BS. Probably not with Amp opening, but with boots3 I'd say sure. W start kills wolves before taking too much damage, chug potions and spam W at blue. With blue up and level 2, Wraiths > Wolves goes down stupid fast, you hit 3. WQW -> Red maybe gets you a bit low, depending on how much damage you took, but you'll kill it way too fast to notice, and there's no issue clearing Wraiths after. Comparatively, Golems are much stronger than Wolves or Wraiths, so why pick a route where you have to fight the strongest non-buff camp at all? Honestly, I consider wolves to be the roughest camp because golems at level 3 are easy mode. Lol, my HP is at its lowest after wolves for my route. Golems barely hurt as I always focus the weaker one first so I get the bonus HP before going into red. Also golems don't crit correct? I swear I cannot go through wolves without getting critted at least 2 times. Also, W doesn't kill wolves before you take a good chunk of damage. Like I said my hp is lowest after/during wolves. And I have done this route 100+ times already between Nocturne, Diana, and Shyvana, and golems is never ever the problem area.
A wolf crit literally does less damage than a normal auto from a golem. Mathematically speaking even without accounting for damage reduction masteries (which reduce damage from multiple, fast attackers more than fewr, slow attackers) the wolves camp would need twice its current crit rate to match golems. Golems are only safer if you have Smite available to quickly wipe out the Big Golem.
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On August 09 2012 01:47 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 01:45 koreasilver wrote:
I don't know why you're jungling with the assumption that you're not getting a leash. I don't get it at all. Because solo queue is solo queue. Either way, Boots is probably my preferred start, seeing as her ganks need all the help they can get. Still not sure as to MS or AP quints, though. Edit: Ergh, Rune Pages so expensive for IP, almost considering RP buying them just so I don't have to wait and keep switching them.
7 page bundle most efficient use of RP:IP.
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Yeah, I'm sure there are many games where even as an uberfast jungler there will be games where I just ignore minigolems or just get them once during the entire lane phase.
Never jungled without a leash once. There have been fail leashes (omg don't make it reset noob mid!) and retard mids(wtf, you're going to make me check for invades from river, arrive late, and make top leash for me?) but never no leash. And even then only two fails, one from a friend.
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wait wait wait. Is NeotheOne seriously trying to argue that Wolves->Blue is a bad starting path? O_O I thought Wolves->Blue was standard for every jungler that wants to start blue or have I been junglin incorrectly since the jungle remake?
Currently I've settled on aspd red, armor yellow, mr blue, mvsp quints. I'm going 0/21/9 with points in swiftness and standard 21 jungle defensive tree. Open boots 3 into kage. I really like Kage; it's a decent chunk of AP for the early game and the income is helpful while giving you the option to grab a DFG if you need it. I follow with chalice->glacial finish grail/FH and build abyssal. Haven't gone beyond that but I'd probably opt for Dcap at that point if the game is still going strong. Diana's base damages are pretty sick so you don't need that much AP, but her ratios are amazing. 0.8 on Q and 0.6 on passive makes for insane dps with Dcap.
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On August 09 2012 01:55 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 00:53 AsmodeusXI wrote:On August 09 2012 00:31 Seuss wrote:On August 08 2012 23:42 Requizen wrote:
Yeah, I'd really only consider Zhonya if I'm getting fed, because at that point there isn't a huge call for armor (since the enemy's damage will be crap), and you can just snowball with the AP. That would be my "we're winning by quite a bit, let's keep winning" item.
I just don't like Randuin's over FH on her. You already have a good AoE slow on E, so I can see stacking the active with it, but I'd rather have the CDR to get more Es out and have more damage. Plus, I don't think any part of Randuin's is as good of a mid game item as Glacial is, unless you really really need Warden's Mail because they're AD carry is out of control and kiting you, but post-6 kiting should be a non-issue. Glacial definitely stands out as the best armor item for jungle Diana because it's cheap, provides critical stats for Diana, and builds into one of the most important auras in the game. Even if I was fed, I'd rather have Glacial and work my way toward Abyssal or Aegis than grab Zhonya's (which is incidentally exactly what I did last night in the one game where I actually got to jungle Diana). On August 09 2012 00:18 NEOtheONE wrote:On August 09 2012 00:07 AsmodeusXI wrote:On August 09 2012 00:01 NEOtheONE wrote:On August 08 2012 23:32 AsmodeusXI wrote:
Yeahhh... Now that I think about it, I guess playing her top would get dicey for the same (or one of the same) reasons that Fiora is so weak: Dat lack of escape. Maybe I'll try her mid, but damn if I REALLY don't wanna learn mid... It's one of the only roles I play less than jungle. Plus, being tanky and jumping in is definitely the play style I like and it sounds like that's just Diana through and through when played properly.
To that effect, I think I'll try again with her with some more Udyr like runes/tank masteries, then do the whole philo->kages->abyssal->FH thing and see what happens. Gotta work on my ganking too. :/ I honestly use 12/17/1 masteries (after trying multiple different mastery setups) to achieve maximum tankiness in the jungle (armor, MR, minion DR and DR+2, reflect 6 damage to minions, etc.) and still get all the magic pen masteries. I run my mage rune page with magic pen marks (but these could switch), armor seals (in place of the usual mana regen), flat AP glyphs and flat AP quints (you could swap out the AP for MR and HP or something else I just like having more starting shield and damage). It lets me start regrowth pendant+potion and never get low hp in the jungle. I run her jungle very similar to my speed level Shyvana jungle going wraiths > wolves > blue > wraiths > golems > red > gank. Assuming you don't get bogged down in a 3v3 teamfight bot, you can go right back to jungling after your gank or you can back and buy. She is a little blue buff dependent until she gets 2 mana regen items. I grab philostone and then codex or catalyst, you could do philo and kage's then codex or pick up a haunting guise for maximum magic pen. Catalyst really helps her with the mana issues early on. I do recommend getting max CDR on her if you can because her ult gets down to a 7.5 ish second CD on its own and her Q gets down to a 3.6 second CD, meaning you can jump on people all day with enough mana regen. Boots should probably either be Sorcs or Mercs. You don't find AS marks to be important at all? I feel like (with my super limited experience) they are really nice to have, especially with her passive. Also, and this may just be a general jungle question, but how do you go wraiths -> wolves -> blue without getting super low, even with the shield? That seems like you're not getting much of a leash at all and will be painful. Well the masteries I use help a ton with that. Actually, I never make use of any sort of leash when doing this route. My health never gets below half for more than a second because I use shield twice on wolves, and I start my potion right before going into blue. Also, I auto attack wraiths before using my shield so my regrowth is recovering my HP while shielded. By the time I get to wolves I am back at full HP. I do this same exact route with shyvana using cloth + 5 pots with very similar results. And I have been doing that route with her (shyvana) for probably a good 50 games by now. I don't think Regrowth start is remotely necessary on Diana. If you did Wolves -> Blue and got a leash from your team you could easily start Boots + 3p and have a much greater chance of actually accomplishing something with that early gank. I'm also leaning toward completely eschewing gp10s on Diana. She has a super-strong mid-game and investing in gp10s undermines that, especially as Philo is insufficient in and of itself to maintain your mana. Chalice alone can fill the role that Philo + Catalyst/Codex is doing for you now at a significantly lower cost. It sounds like you're also starting with tankyish runes/masteries... What's your setup? And from there, what's the mid game plan? Boots->chalice, then what? DRings on the way to Abyssal/Glacial or just straight to Blasting Wand? 11/19/0, AS Quints/Marks and Armor Seals/Glyphs, but you could easily do something more standard like MS/AS/Armor/MR. Build plan is Boots 1 -> Chalice -> Glacial + Boots 2 -> Aegis/Abyssal. Diana has such high base damage that CDR/mana contributes more to her jungling speed and gank strength than AP. Chalice alone is enough mana regen so you don't need DRings. Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 01:33 NEOtheONE wrote:On August 09 2012 01:30 Requizen wrote:On August 09 2012 01:24 NEOtheONE wrote:On August 09 2012 01:22 Requizen wrote:On August 09 2012 01:21 NEOtheONE wrote:On August 09 2012 01:18 Requizen wrote:On August 09 2012 01:16 NEOtheONE wrote:On August 09 2012 01:11 Requizen wrote:On August 09 2012 00:31 Seuss wrote:
[quote]
Glacial definitely stands out as the best armor item for jungle Diana because it's cheap, provides critical stats for Diana, and builds into one of the most important auras in the game. Even if I was fed, I'd rather have Glacial and work my way toward Abyssal or Aegis than grab Zhonya's (which is incidentally exactly what I did last night in the one game where I actually got to jungle Diana).
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I don't think Regrowth start is remotely necessary on Diana. If you did Wolves -> Blue and got a leash from your team you could easily start Boots + 3p and have a much greater chance of actually accomplishing something with that early gank.
I'm also leaning toward completely eschewing gp10s on Diana. She has a super-strong mid-game and investing in gp10s undermines that, especially as Philo is insufficient in and of itself to maintain your mana. Chalice alone can fill the role that Philo + Catalyst/Codex is doing for you now at a significantly lower cost. I can understand skipping Philo, but I still think Kage is a good item to get on her. GP10s are generally not as strong as normal items, but 25 AP that pays for itself and opens up 2 decently considerable build paths is nothing to scoff at. 25 AP is pretty good considering it buffs 3 out of 4 abilities and your passive, so you get faster clears, more defense, and stronger ganks out of it. Kage's is such a good item in general because of what it builds into. I'm still partial to my regrowth start because I hate depending on people to leash for me because of all the crazy shit that happens when you try to leash. Also, no one will expect a "blue dependent" jungler to start somewhere other than blue, which means less chance of getting slaughtered at level 1 by an invade. I'd argue that she doesn't even require Regrowth, even without a leash. With a Boots3 or even Amp Tome (not recommended, but for comparison) start, she'll come out at level 4 with >70% health ezpz. Okay, I want replay proof of this because right now I call BS. And remember in order to get to 4 you have to go wraiths > wolves > blue > wraiths > golems > red and come out with > 70% health. Good luck with that. Wolves > Blue > Wraiths > Wolves > Red > Wraiths gets you 4 as well, and feels a lot safer, especially because you don't fight golems. Right because fighting blue at level 1 without a leash is safer than fighting golems at level 3. I'm still calling BS. Probably not with Amp opening, but with boots3 I'd say sure. W start kills wolves before taking too much damage, chug potions and spam W at blue. With blue up and level 2, Wraiths > Wolves goes down stupid fast, you hit 3. WQW -> Red maybe gets you a bit low, depending on how much damage you took, but you'll kill it way too fast to notice, and there's no issue clearing Wraiths after. Comparatively, Golems are much stronger than Wolves or Wraiths, so why pick a route where you have to fight the strongest non-buff camp at all? Honestly, I consider wolves to be the roughest camp because golems at level 3 are easy mode. Lol, my HP is at its lowest after wolves for my route. Golems barely hurt as I always focus the weaker one first so I get the bonus HP before going into red. Also golems don't crit correct? I swear I cannot go through wolves without getting critted at least 2 times. Also, W doesn't kill wolves before you take a good chunk of damage. Like I said my hp is lowest after/during wolves. And I have done this route 100+ times already between Nocturne, Diana, and Shyvana, and golems is never ever the problem area. A wolf crit literally does less damage than a normal auto from a golem. Mathematically speaking even without accounting for damage reduction masteries (which reduce damage from multiple, fast attackers more than fewr, slow attackers) the wolves camp would need twice its current crit rate to match golems. Golems are only safer if you have Smite available to quickly wipe out the Big Golem.
Okay so it's literally just me then. I don't have problems with golems. Never have, and my route lets me go back to wolves after hitting 4 then go back to wraiths and back to golems if I just want to keep clearing. It works for me. You all do what works for you, I'm just saying my route has a lot of merit if you rune and mastery correct and play it smart.
On August 09 2012 01:57 Ryuu314 wrote:
wait wait wait. Is NeotheOne seriously trying to argue that Wolves->Blue is a bad starting path? O_O I thought Wolves->Blue was standard for every jungler that wants to start blue or have I been junglin incorrectly since the jungle remake?
IF you can get a good leash then it's a good route, but Solo queue is solo queue so I wanted an alternative. My firend showed me this route, and I loved it and found it to be fast and super efficient. I can keep up on levels with the solo lanes which is hard to do with the standard jungle routes.
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United States15536 Posts
On August 09 2012 01:57 Ryuu314 wrote:
wait wait wait. Is NeotheOne seriously trying to argue that Wolves->Blue is a bad starting path? O_O I thought Wolves->Blue was standard for every jungler that wants to start blue or have I been junglin incorrectly since the jungle remake?
I think it's "better starting path for Diana if you don't trust your teammates" rather than "wolves -> blue" is bad.
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On August 09 2012 01:57 Ryuu314 wrote:
wait wait wait. Is NeotheOne seriously trying to argue that Wolves->Blue is a bad starting path? O_O I thought Wolves->Blue was standard for every jungler that wants to start blue or have I been junglin incorrectly since the jungle remake?
What I'm getting is that he's afraid of bad leashes. Which just don't happen after level 20.
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EPT
