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What do you guys think of grail on ziggs? Feels like he uses all the stats provided really well, considering his mana consumption.
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On August 09 2012 01:02 Vingle wrote:
What do you guys think of grail on ziggs? Feels like he uses all the stats provided really well, considering his mana consumption.
CDR always nice, throw more bombs, have the mana to throw more bombs, make your bombs do more damage.
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On August 09 2012 00:59 AsmodeusXI wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 00:56 Cloud9157 wrote:
Pick Swain vs Gragas and win lane. huehuehue Limp > Lard?
Obviously.
Grail such a good item in general. Find yourself running oom very quickly in team fights? Grail is right up your alley.
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On August 09 2012 01:02 Vingle wrote:
What do you guys think of grail on ziggs? Feels like he uses all the stats provided really well, considering his mana consumption.
I think that definitely is a good item on him. Especially since he's quite squishy (as far as I remember), the MR helps. Besides I don't think his base numbers are too bad and his cooldowns are low so rushing Deathcap isn't too necessary.
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On August 09 2012 01:05 Cloud9157 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 00:59 AsmodeusXI wrote:On August 09 2012 00:56 Cloud9157 wrote:
Pick Swain vs Gragas and win lane. huehuehue Limp > Lard? Obviously. Grail such a good item in general. Find yourself running oom very quickly in team fights? Grail is right up your alley.
When I saw the buff I thought "Why did they buff this item? It was already great."
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On August 09 2012 01:05 Cloud9157 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 00:59 AsmodeusXI wrote:On August 09 2012 00:56 Cloud9157 wrote:
Pick Swain vs Gragas and win lane. huehuehue Limp > Lard? Obviously. Grail such a good item in general. Find yourself running oom very quickly in team fights? Grail is right up your alley.
Grail is like a blue buff that gives AP and MR, no one gets it because it's not a dcap or abyssal and just take blue instead.
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On August 09 2012 01:02 Vingle wrote:
What do you guys think of grail on ziggs? Feels like he uses all the stats provided really well, considering his mana consumption.
Core item imo,well chalice is core grail is just finally the upgrade to make it useful all game,as I said you start with boots+3,on first back buy ring and than chalice.After that you farm like mad,rush d cap,if you are doing really good go straight for lich bane if not,or you are constantly denied blue buff finish up grail.
Don't rush grail,take your time,chalice is OP on it's own.
On August 09 2012 01:02 NEOtheONE wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 00:55 JackDino wrote:On August 09 2012 00:43 NEOtheONE wrote:On August 09 2012 00:33 TheKefka wrote:On August 09 2012 00:29 jcarlsoniv wrote:On August 09 2012 00:17 TheKefka wrote:
Nonsense,buy ziggs,always farm never die.That reminds me I need to update my ziggs thread,finally figured out how to play/build him properly. get ganked, cry because you're not the fat man and have 0 mobility That's why you're supposed to use MS quints:D And it's not really true about no mobility you have a jump. I don't even use MS quints on Anivia and she's the slowest champ in the game. Make up for lack of MS with skill not quints. Yeah, skill is def going to help you when rammus rolls at you or naut runs in range and lands a hook because he's faster etc etc. I take it you play without any runes and just make up for the lack of lost stats with skill right? LoL Rammus will eat an anivia Q before he taunts me and I've never had any problems with a nautilus while mid. People play to their strong suits. I land skill shots consistently so why would I need the movespeed when I can stop a gank with a skillshot because I manage my mana while in mid? Also, I thought everyone takes flash in mid anyways?
The discussion was on survivability of ziggs and not how well you can land Qs with anivia.......wtf are you talking about
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Grail is legit on any spammy AP mid. That's just my opinion though. How can you not like 90 AP 15% CDR, 15 MP5, 40 MR, and two awesome mana regen unique passives?
On August 09 2012 01:07 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 01:05 Cloud9157 wrote:On August 09 2012 00:59 AsmodeusXI wrote:On August 09 2012 00:56 Cloud9157 wrote:
Pick Swain vs Gragas and win lane. huehuehue Limp > Lard? Obviously. Grail such a good item in general. Find yourself running oom very quickly in team fights? Grail is right up your alley. When I saw the buff I thought "Why did they buff this item? It was already great."
Agreed. Heck it's cheaper than RoA which was considered a core item on many AP mids for a long time.
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On August 09 2012 00:31 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 23:42 Requizen wrote:
Yeah, I'd really only consider Zhonya if I'm getting fed, because at that point there isn't a huge call for armor (since the enemy's damage will be crap), and you can just snowball with the AP. That would be my "we're winning by quite a bit, let's keep winning" item.
I just don't like Randuin's over FH on her. You already have a good AoE slow on E, so I can see stacking the active with it, but I'd rather have the CDR to get more Es out and have more damage. Plus, I don't think any part of Randuin's is as good of a mid game item as Glacial is, unless you really really need Warden's Mail because they're AD carry is out of control and kiting you, but post-6 kiting should be a non-issue. Glacial definitely stands out as the best armor item for jungle Diana because it's cheap, provides critical stats for Diana, and builds into one of the most important auras in the game. Even if I was fed, I'd rather have Glacial and work my way toward Abyssal or Aegis than grab Zhonya's (which is incidentally exactly what I did last night in the one game where I actually got to jungle Diana). Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 00:18 NEOtheONE wrote:On August 09 2012 00:07 AsmodeusXI wrote:On August 09 2012 00:01 NEOtheONE wrote:On August 08 2012 23:32 AsmodeusXI wrote:
Yeahhh... Now that I think about it, I guess playing her top would get dicey for the same (or one of the same) reasons that Fiora is so weak: Dat lack of escape. Maybe I'll try her mid, but damn if I REALLY don't wanna learn mid... It's one of the only roles I play less than jungle. Plus, being tanky and jumping in is definitely the play style I like and it sounds like that's just Diana through and through when played properly.
To that effect, I think I'll try again with her with some more Udyr like runes/tank masteries, then do the whole philo->kages->abyssal->FH thing and see what happens. Gotta work on my ganking too. :/ I honestly use 12/17/1 masteries (after trying multiple different mastery setups) to achieve maximum tankiness in the jungle (armor, MR, minion DR and DR+2, reflect 6 damage to minions, etc.) and still get all the magic pen masteries. I run my mage rune page with magic pen marks (but these could switch), armor seals (in place of the usual mana regen), flat AP glyphs and flat AP quints (you could swap out the AP for MR and HP or something else I just like having more starting shield and damage). It lets me start regrowth pendant+potion and never get low hp in the jungle. I run her jungle very similar to my speed level Shyvana jungle going wraiths > wolves > blue > wraiths > golems > red > gank. Assuming you don't get bogged down in a 3v3 teamfight bot, you can go right back to jungling after your gank or you can back and buy. She is a little blue buff dependent until she gets 2 mana regen items. I grab philostone and then codex or catalyst, you could do philo and kage's then codex or pick up a haunting guise for maximum magic pen. Catalyst really helps her with the mana issues early on. I do recommend getting max CDR on her if you can because her ult gets down to a 7.5 ish second CD on its own and her Q gets down to a 3.6 second CD, meaning you can jump on people all day with enough mana regen. Boots should probably either be Sorcs or Mercs. You don't find AS marks to be important at all? I feel like (with my super limited experience) they are really nice to have, especially with her passive. Also, and this may just be a general jungle question, but how do you go wraiths -> wolves -> blue without getting super low, even with the shield? That seems like you're not getting much of a leash at all and will be painful. Well the masteries I use help a ton with that. Actually, I never make use of any sort of leash when doing this route. My health never gets below half for more than a second because I use shield twice on wolves, and I start my potion right before going into blue. Also, I auto attack wraiths before using my shield so my regrowth is recovering my HP while shielded. By the time I get to wolves I am back at full HP. I do this same exact route with shyvana using cloth + 5 pots with very similar results. And I have been doing that route with her (shyvana) for probably a good 50 games by now. I don't think Regrowth start is remotely necessary on Diana. If you did Wolves -> Blue and got a leash from your team you could easily start Boots + 3p and have a much greater chance of actually accomplishing something with that early gank. I'm also leaning toward completely eschewing gp10s on Diana. She has a super-strong mid-game and investing in gp10s undermines that, especially as Philo is insufficient in and of itself to maintain your mana. Chalice alone can fill the role that Philo + Catalyst/Codex is doing for you now at a significantly lower cost.
I can understand skipping Philo, but I still think Kage is a good item to get on her. GP10s are generally not as strong as normal items, but 25 AP that pays for itself and opens up 2 decently considerable build paths is nothing to scoff at. 25 AP is pretty good considering it buffs 3 out of 4 abilities and your passive, so you get faster clears, more defense, and stronger ganks out of it.
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Grail real good on Kassadin too. Just sayin...
Also. Diana is awesome. I broke down and first day bought her (my only other FDB was Fiona, and I love her too) and haven't even looked back. Her clear is insane. Its a lot of fun to bring the damage to a gank instead of the CC. You can really build anything on her and have it be silly good.
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On August 09 2012 01:11 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 00:31 Seuss wrote:On August 08 2012 23:42 Requizen wrote:
Yeah, I'd really only consider Zhonya if I'm getting fed, because at that point there isn't a huge call for armor (since the enemy's damage will be crap), and you can just snowball with the AP. That would be my "we're winning by quite a bit, let's keep winning" item.
I just don't like Randuin's over FH on her. You already have a good AoE slow on E, so I can see stacking the active with it, but I'd rather have the CDR to get more Es out and have more damage. Plus, I don't think any part of Randuin's is as good of a mid game item as Glacial is, unless you really really need Warden's Mail because they're AD carry is out of control and kiting you, but post-6 kiting should be a non-issue. Glacial definitely stands out as the best armor item for jungle Diana because it's cheap, provides critical stats for Diana, and builds into one of the most important auras in the game. Even if I was fed, I'd rather have Glacial and work my way toward Abyssal or Aegis than grab Zhonya's (which is incidentally exactly what I did last night in the one game where I actually got to jungle Diana). On August 09 2012 00:18 NEOtheONE wrote:On August 09 2012 00:07 AsmodeusXI wrote:On August 09 2012 00:01 NEOtheONE wrote:On August 08 2012 23:32 AsmodeusXI wrote:
Yeahhh... Now that I think about it, I guess playing her top would get dicey for the same (or one of the same) reasons that Fiora is so weak: Dat lack of escape. Maybe I'll try her mid, but damn if I REALLY don't wanna learn mid... It's one of the only roles I play less than jungle. Plus, being tanky and jumping in is definitely the play style I like and it sounds like that's just Diana through and through when played properly.
To that effect, I think I'll try again with her with some more Udyr like runes/tank masteries, then do the whole philo->kages->abyssal->FH thing and see what happens. Gotta work on my ganking too. :/ I honestly use 12/17/1 masteries (after trying multiple different mastery setups) to achieve maximum tankiness in the jungle (armor, MR, minion DR and DR+2, reflect 6 damage to minions, etc.) and still get all the magic pen masteries. I run my mage rune page with magic pen marks (but these could switch), armor seals (in place of the usual mana regen), flat AP glyphs and flat AP quints (you could swap out the AP for MR and HP or something else I just like having more starting shield and damage). It lets me start regrowth pendant+potion and never get low hp in the jungle. I run her jungle very similar to my speed level Shyvana jungle going wraiths > wolves > blue > wraiths > golems > red > gank. Assuming you don't get bogged down in a 3v3 teamfight bot, you can go right back to jungling after your gank or you can back and buy. She is a little blue buff dependent until she gets 2 mana regen items. I grab philostone and then codex or catalyst, you could do philo and kage's then codex or pick up a haunting guise for maximum magic pen. Catalyst really helps her with the mana issues early on. I do recommend getting max CDR on her if you can because her ult gets down to a 7.5 ish second CD on its own and her Q gets down to a 3.6 second CD, meaning you can jump on people all day with enough mana regen. Boots should probably either be Sorcs or Mercs. You don't find AS marks to be important at all? I feel like (with my super limited experience) they are really nice to have, especially with her passive. Also, and this may just be a general jungle question, but how do you go wraiths -> wolves -> blue without getting super low, even with the shield? That seems like you're not getting much of a leash at all and will be painful. Well the masteries I use help a ton with that. Actually, I never make use of any sort of leash when doing this route. My health never gets below half for more than a second because I use shield twice on wolves, and I start my potion right before going into blue. Also, I auto attack wraiths before using my shield so my regrowth is recovering my HP while shielded. By the time I get to wolves I am back at full HP. I do this same exact route with shyvana using cloth + 5 pots with very similar results. And I have been doing that route with her (shyvana) for probably a good 50 games by now. I don't think Regrowth start is remotely necessary on Diana. If you did Wolves -> Blue and got a leash from your team you could easily start Boots + 3p and have a much greater chance of actually accomplishing something with that early gank. I'm also leaning toward completely eschewing gp10s on Diana. She has a super-strong mid-game and investing in gp10s undermines that, especially as Philo is insufficient in and of itself to maintain your mana. Chalice alone can fill the role that Philo + Catalyst/Codex is doing for you now at a significantly lower cost. I can understand skipping Philo, but I still think Kage is a good item to get on her. GP10s are generally not as strong as normal items, but 25 AP that pays for itself and opens up 2 decently considerable build paths is nothing to scoff at. 25 AP is pretty good considering it buffs 3 out of 4 abilities and your passive, so you get faster clears, more defense, and stronger ganks out of it.
Kage's is such a good item in general because of what it builds into. I'm still partial to my regrowth start because I hate depending on people to leash for me because of all the crazy shit that happens when you try to leash. Also, no one will expect a "blue dependent" jungler to start somewhere other than blue, which means less chance of getting slaughtered at level 1 by an invade.
On August 09 2012 01:14 Terranasaur wrote:
Grail real good on Kassadin too. Just sayin...
Also. Diana is awesome. I broke down and first day bought her (my only other FDB was Fiona, and I love her too) and haven't even looked back. Her clear is insane. Its a lot of fun to bring the damage to a gank instead of the CC. You can really build anything on her and have it be silly good.
Not to mention Diana is one of the few champions able to solo dragon and baron without a spellvamp/lifesteal item. Simply grab blue first, spam Q, then W, then R, then repeat and finish with smite.
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I basically go grail on everyone who has long skillshots that I cant use on every single CD without it.
People are all like, "if you use mana efficiently you can skip all mana items....", fuck that, I feel having grail is basically like infinite mana, and you can play totally differently just throwing shit out there like crazy on anyone with reasonable CD's. Its so incredibly worth its cost in overall damage output gamelong.
Like brand, with grail you can just throw pillars and fireballs out every CD, it makes you like 4x as scary. Orianna....Ziggs....Lux
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On August 09 2012 01:16 NEOtheONE wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 01:11 Requizen wrote:On August 09 2012 00:31 Seuss wrote:On August 08 2012 23:42 Requizen wrote:
Yeah, I'd really only consider Zhonya if I'm getting fed, because at that point there isn't a huge call for armor (since the enemy's damage will be crap), and you can just snowball with the AP. That would be my "we're winning by quite a bit, let's keep winning" item.
I just don't like Randuin's over FH on her. You already have a good AoE slow on E, so I can see stacking the active with it, but I'd rather have the CDR to get more Es out and have more damage. Plus, I don't think any part of Randuin's is as good of a mid game item as Glacial is, unless you really really need Warden's Mail because they're AD carry is out of control and kiting you, but post-6 kiting should be a non-issue. Glacial definitely stands out as the best armor item for jungle Diana because it's cheap, provides critical stats for Diana, and builds into one of the most important auras in the game. Even if I was fed, I'd rather have Glacial and work my way toward Abyssal or Aegis than grab Zhonya's (which is incidentally exactly what I did last night in the one game where I actually got to jungle Diana). On August 09 2012 00:18 NEOtheONE wrote:On August 09 2012 00:07 AsmodeusXI wrote:On August 09 2012 00:01 NEOtheONE wrote:On August 08 2012 23:32 AsmodeusXI wrote:
Yeahhh... Now that I think about it, I guess playing her top would get dicey for the same (or one of the same) reasons that Fiora is so weak: Dat lack of escape. Maybe I'll try her mid, but damn if I REALLY don't wanna learn mid... It's one of the only roles I play less than jungle. Plus, being tanky and jumping in is definitely the play style I like and it sounds like that's just Diana through and through when played properly.
To that effect, I think I'll try again with her with some more Udyr like runes/tank masteries, then do the whole philo->kages->abyssal->FH thing and see what happens. Gotta work on my ganking too. :/ I honestly use 12/17/1 masteries (after trying multiple different mastery setups) to achieve maximum tankiness in the jungle (armor, MR, minion DR and DR+2, reflect 6 damage to minions, etc.) and still get all the magic pen masteries. I run my mage rune page with magic pen marks (but these could switch), armor seals (in place of the usual mana regen), flat AP glyphs and flat AP quints (you could swap out the AP for MR and HP or something else I just like having more starting shield and damage). It lets me start regrowth pendant+potion and never get low hp in the jungle. I run her jungle very similar to my speed level Shyvana jungle going wraiths > wolves > blue > wraiths > golems > red > gank. Assuming you don't get bogged down in a 3v3 teamfight bot, you can go right back to jungling after your gank or you can back and buy. She is a little blue buff dependent until she gets 2 mana regen items. I grab philostone and then codex or catalyst, you could do philo and kage's then codex or pick up a haunting guise for maximum magic pen. Catalyst really helps her with the mana issues early on. I do recommend getting max CDR on her if you can because her ult gets down to a 7.5 ish second CD on its own and her Q gets down to a 3.6 second CD, meaning you can jump on people all day with enough mana regen. Boots should probably either be Sorcs or Mercs. You don't find AS marks to be important at all? I feel like (with my super limited experience) they are really nice to have, especially with her passive. Also, and this may just be a general jungle question, but how do you go wraiths -> wolves -> blue without getting super low, even with the shield? That seems like you're not getting much of a leash at all and will be painful. Well the masteries I use help a ton with that. Actually, I never make use of any sort of leash when doing this route. My health never gets below half for more than a second because I use shield twice on wolves, and I start my potion right before going into blue. Also, I auto attack wraiths before using my shield so my regrowth is recovering my HP while shielded. By the time I get to wolves I am back at full HP. I do this same exact route with shyvana using cloth + 5 pots with very similar results. And I have been doing that route with her (shyvana) for probably a good 50 games by now. I don't think Regrowth start is remotely necessary on Diana. If you did Wolves -> Blue and got a leash from your team you could easily start Boots + 3p and have a much greater chance of actually accomplishing something with that early gank. I'm also leaning toward completely eschewing gp10s on Diana. She has a super-strong mid-game and investing in gp10s undermines that, especially as Philo is insufficient in and of itself to maintain your mana. Chalice alone can fill the role that Philo + Catalyst/Codex is doing for you now at a significantly lower cost. I can understand skipping Philo, but I still think Kage is a good item to get on her. GP10s are generally not as strong as normal items, but 25 AP that pays for itself and opens up 2 decently considerable build paths is nothing to scoff at. 25 AP is pretty good considering it buffs 3 out of 4 abilities and your passive, so you get faster clears, more defense, and stronger ganks out of it. Kage's is such a good item in general because of what it builds into. I'm still partial to my regrowth start because I hate depending on people to leash for me because of all the crazy shit that happens when you try to leash. Also, no one will expect a "blue dependent" jungler to start somewhere other than blue, which means less chance of getting slaughtered at level 1 by an invade.
I'd argue that she doesn't even require Regrowth, even without a leash. With a Boots3 or even Amp Tome (not recommended, but for comparison) start, she'll come out at level 4 with >70% health ezpz.
I don't know, I may play some more Grail on her. It's not expensive MR, so not horrid to get in the jungle, and makes her clears even faster by allowing spam. I would personally still prefer Abyssal over Grail as an MR item, I think, but maybe it's something to try.
I had a silly notion of a bunch of mid-game items on her, Glacial/Sheen/Grail/Guise and just being immobile and killing everything, but I don't actually know how that'd pan out. Too busy at work to do numbers or anything
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On August 09 2012 01:17 sob3k wrote:
I basically go grail on everyone who has long skillshots that I cant use on every single CD without it.
People are all like, "if you use mana efficiently you can skip all mana items....", fuck that, I feel having grail is basically like infinite mana, and you can play totally differently just throwing shit out there like crazy on anyone with reasonable CD's. Its so incredibly worth its cost in overall damage output gamelong.
Like brand, with grail you can just throw pillars and fireballs out every CD, it makes you like 4x as scary. Orianna....Ziggs....Lux
Ya but srsly don't rush it,chalice does the job alone,rush d cap and upgrade to grail when teamfights start.
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On August 09 2012 01:18 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 01:16 NEOtheONE wrote:On August 09 2012 01:11 Requizen wrote:On August 09 2012 00:31 Seuss wrote:On August 08 2012 23:42 Requizen wrote:
Yeah, I'd really only consider Zhonya if I'm getting fed, because at that point there isn't a huge call for armor (since the enemy's damage will be crap), and you can just snowball with the AP. That would be my "we're winning by quite a bit, let's keep winning" item.
I just don't like Randuin's over FH on her. You already have a good AoE slow on E, so I can see stacking the active with it, but I'd rather have the CDR to get more Es out and have more damage. Plus, I don't think any part of Randuin's is as good of a mid game item as Glacial is, unless you really really need Warden's Mail because they're AD carry is out of control and kiting you, but post-6 kiting should be a non-issue. Glacial definitely stands out as the best armor item for jungle Diana because it's cheap, provides critical stats for Diana, and builds into one of the most important auras in the game. Even if I was fed, I'd rather have Glacial and work my way toward Abyssal or Aegis than grab Zhonya's (which is incidentally exactly what I did last night in the one game where I actually got to jungle Diana). On August 09 2012 00:18 NEOtheONE wrote:On August 09 2012 00:07 AsmodeusXI wrote:On August 09 2012 00:01 NEOtheONE wrote:On August 08 2012 23:32 AsmodeusXI wrote:
Yeahhh... Now that I think about it, I guess playing her top would get dicey for the same (or one of the same) reasons that Fiora is so weak: Dat lack of escape. Maybe I'll try her mid, but damn if I REALLY don't wanna learn mid... It's one of the only roles I play less than jungle. Plus, being tanky and jumping in is definitely the play style I like and it sounds like that's just Diana through and through when played properly.
To that effect, I think I'll try again with her with some more Udyr like runes/tank masteries, then do the whole philo->kages->abyssal->FH thing and see what happens. Gotta work on my ganking too. :/ I honestly use 12/17/1 masteries (after trying multiple different mastery setups) to achieve maximum tankiness in the jungle (armor, MR, minion DR and DR+2, reflect 6 damage to minions, etc.) and still get all the magic pen masteries. I run my mage rune page with magic pen marks (but these could switch), armor seals (in place of the usual mana regen), flat AP glyphs and flat AP quints (you could swap out the AP for MR and HP or something else I just like having more starting shield and damage). It lets me start regrowth pendant+potion and never get low hp in the jungle. I run her jungle very similar to my speed level Shyvana jungle going wraiths > wolves > blue > wraiths > golems > red > gank. Assuming you don't get bogged down in a 3v3 teamfight bot, you can go right back to jungling after your gank or you can back and buy. She is a little blue buff dependent until she gets 2 mana regen items. I grab philostone and then codex or catalyst, you could do philo and kage's then codex or pick up a haunting guise for maximum magic pen. Catalyst really helps her with the mana issues early on. I do recommend getting max CDR on her if you can because her ult gets down to a 7.5 ish second CD on its own and her Q gets down to a 3.6 second CD, meaning you can jump on people all day with enough mana regen. Boots should probably either be Sorcs or Mercs. You don't find AS marks to be important at all? I feel like (with my super limited experience) they are really nice to have, especially with her passive. Also, and this may just be a general jungle question, but how do you go wraiths -> wolves -> blue without getting super low, even with the shield? That seems like you're not getting much of a leash at all and will be painful. Well the masteries I use help a ton with that. Actually, I never make use of any sort of leash when doing this route. My health never gets below half for more than a second because I use shield twice on wolves, and I start my potion right before going into blue. Also, I auto attack wraiths before using my shield so my regrowth is recovering my HP while shielded. By the time I get to wolves I am back at full HP. I do this same exact route with shyvana using cloth + 5 pots with very similar results. And I have been doing that route with her (shyvana) for probably a good 50 games by now. I don't think Regrowth start is remotely necessary on Diana. If you did Wolves -> Blue and got a leash from your team you could easily start Boots + 3p and have a much greater chance of actually accomplishing something with that early gank. I'm also leaning toward completely eschewing gp10s on Diana. She has a super-strong mid-game and investing in gp10s undermines that, especially as Philo is insufficient in and of itself to maintain your mana. Chalice alone can fill the role that Philo + Catalyst/Codex is doing for you now at a significantly lower cost. I can understand skipping Philo, but I still think Kage is a good item to get on her. GP10s are generally not as strong as normal items, but 25 AP that pays for itself and opens up 2 decently considerable build paths is nothing to scoff at. 25 AP is pretty good considering it buffs 3 out of 4 abilities and your passive, so you get faster clears, more defense, and stronger ganks out of it. Kage's is such a good item in general because of what it builds into. I'm still partial to my regrowth start because I hate depending on people to leash for me because of all the crazy shit that happens when you try to leash. Also, no one will expect a "blue dependent" jungler to start somewhere other than blue, which means less chance of getting slaughtered at level 1 by an invade. I'd argue that she doesn't even require Regrowth, even without a leash. With a Boots3 or even Amp Tome (not recommended, but for comparison) start, she'll come out at level 4 with >70% health ezpz.
Okay, I want replay proof of this because right now I call BS. And remember in order to get to 4 you have to go wraiths > wolves > blue > wraiths > golems > red and come out with > 70% health. Good luck with that.
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So what's the general consensus on jungle quints for Diana? I can't decide between AP Quints or MS Quints.
Also, are you guys building tanky jungle(Udyana), straight damage, or a hybrid?
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United States15536 Posts
On August 09 2012 01:18 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 01:16 NEOtheONE wrote:On August 09 2012 01:11 Requizen wrote:On August 09 2012 00:31 Seuss wrote:On August 08 2012 23:42 Requizen wrote:
Yeah, I'd really only consider Zhonya if I'm getting fed, because at that point there isn't a huge call for armor (since the enemy's damage will be crap), and you can just snowball with the AP. That would be my "we're winning by quite a bit, let's keep winning" item.
I just don't like Randuin's over FH on her. You already have a good AoE slow on E, so I can see stacking the active with it, but I'd rather have the CDR to get more Es out and have more damage. Plus, I don't think any part of Randuin's is as good of a mid game item as Glacial is, unless you really really need Warden's Mail because they're AD carry is out of control and kiting you, but post-6 kiting should be a non-issue. Glacial definitely stands out as the best armor item for jungle Diana because it's cheap, provides critical stats for Diana, and builds into one of the most important auras in the game. Even if I was fed, I'd rather have Glacial and work my way toward Abyssal or Aegis than grab Zhonya's (which is incidentally exactly what I did last night in the one game where I actually got to jungle Diana). On August 09 2012 00:18 NEOtheONE wrote:On August 09 2012 00:07 AsmodeusXI wrote:On August 09 2012 00:01 NEOtheONE wrote:On August 08 2012 23:32 AsmodeusXI wrote:
Yeahhh... Now that I think about it, I guess playing her top would get dicey for the same (or one of the same) reasons that Fiora is so weak: Dat lack of escape. Maybe I'll try her mid, but damn if I REALLY don't wanna learn mid... It's one of the only roles I play less than jungle. Plus, being tanky and jumping in is definitely the play style I like and it sounds like that's just Diana through and through when played properly.
To that effect, I think I'll try again with her with some more Udyr like runes/tank masteries, then do the whole philo->kages->abyssal->FH thing and see what happens. Gotta work on my ganking too. :/ I honestly use 12/17/1 masteries (after trying multiple different mastery setups) to achieve maximum tankiness in the jungle (armor, MR, minion DR and DR+2, reflect 6 damage to minions, etc.) and still get all the magic pen masteries. I run my mage rune page with magic pen marks (but these could switch), armor seals (in place of the usual mana regen), flat AP glyphs and flat AP quints (you could swap out the AP for MR and HP or something else I just like having more starting shield and damage). It lets me start regrowth pendant+potion and never get low hp in the jungle. I run her jungle very similar to my speed level Shyvana jungle going wraiths > wolves > blue > wraiths > golems > red > gank. Assuming you don't get bogged down in a 3v3 teamfight bot, you can go right back to jungling after your gank or you can back and buy. She is a little blue buff dependent until she gets 2 mana regen items. I grab philostone and then codex or catalyst, you could do philo and kage's then codex or pick up a haunting guise for maximum magic pen. Catalyst really helps her with the mana issues early on. I do recommend getting max CDR on her if you can because her ult gets down to a 7.5 ish second CD on its own and her Q gets down to a 3.6 second CD, meaning you can jump on people all day with enough mana regen. Boots should probably either be Sorcs or Mercs. You don't find AS marks to be important at all? I feel like (with my super limited experience) they are really nice to have, especially with her passive. Also, and this may just be a general jungle question, but how do you go wraiths -> wolves -> blue without getting super low, even with the shield? That seems like you're not getting much of a leash at all and will be painful. Well the masteries I use help a ton with that. Actually, I never make use of any sort of leash when doing this route. My health never gets below half for more than a second because I use shield twice on wolves, and I start my potion right before going into blue. Also, I auto attack wraiths before using my shield so my regrowth is recovering my HP while shielded. By the time I get to wolves I am back at full HP. I do this same exact route with shyvana using cloth + 5 pots with very similar results. And I have been doing that route with her (shyvana) for probably a good 50 games by now. I don't think Regrowth start is remotely necessary on Diana. If you did Wolves -> Blue and got a leash from your team you could easily start Boots + 3p and have a much greater chance of actually accomplishing something with that early gank. I'm also leaning toward completely eschewing gp10s on Diana. She has a super-strong mid-game and investing in gp10s undermines that, especially as Philo is insufficient in and of itself to maintain your mana. Chalice alone can fill the role that Philo + Catalyst/Codex is doing for you now at a significantly lower cost. I can understand skipping Philo, but I still think Kage is a good item to get on her. GP10s are generally not as strong as normal items, but 25 AP that pays for itself and opens up 2 decently considerable build paths is nothing to scoff at. 25 AP is pretty good considering it buffs 3 out of 4 abilities and your passive, so you get faster clears, more defense, and stronger ganks out of it. Kage's is such a good item in general because of what it builds into. I'm still partial to my regrowth start because I hate depending on people to leash for me because of all the crazy shit that happens when you try to leash. Also, no one will expect a "blue dependent" jungler to start somewhere other than blue, which means less chance of getting slaughtered at level 1 by an invade. I'd argue that she doesn't even require Regrowth, even without a leash. With a Boots3 or even Amp Tome (not recommended, but for comparison) start, she'll come out at level 4 with >70% health ezpz.
Speaking of which, does Diana's earliest gank come at 4 or before then? Doing it first would involve 1 point in E before 2 in W, right? Or do you just run in CCless?
Edit: effectively answered below.
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On August 09 2012 01:21 NEOtheONE wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 01:18 Requizen wrote:On August 09 2012 01:16 NEOtheONE wrote:On August 09 2012 01:11 Requizen wrote:On August 09 2012 00:31 Seuss wrote:On August 08 2012 23:42 Requizen wrote:
Yeah, I'd really only consider Zhonya if I'm getting fed, because at that point there isn't a huge call for armor (since the enemy's damage will be crap), and you can just snowball with the AP. That would be my "we're winning by quite a bit, let's keep winning" item.
I just don't like Randuin's over FH on her. You already have a good AoE slow on E, so I can see stacking the active with it, but I'd rather have the CDR to get more Es out and have more damage. Plus, I don't think any part of Randuin's is as good of a mid game item as Glacial is, unless you really really need Warden's Mail because they're AD carry is out of control and kiting you, but post-6 kiting should be a non-issue. Glacial definitely stands out as the best armor item for jungle Diana because it's cheap, provides critical stats for Diana, and builds into one of the most important auras in the game. Even if I was fed, I'd rather have Glacial and work my way toward Abyssal or Aegis than grab Zhonya's (which is incidentally exactly what I did last night in the one game where I actually got to jungle Diana). On August 09 2012 00:18 NEOtheONE wrote:On August 09 2012 00:07 AsmodeusXI wrote:On August 09 2012 00:01 NEOtheONE wrote:On August 08 2012 23:32 AsmodeusXI wrote:
Yeahhh... Now that I think about it, I guess playing her top would get dicey for the same (or one of the same) reasons that Fiora is so weak: Dat lack of escape. Maybe I'll try her mid, but damn if I REALLY don't wanna learn mid... It's one of the only roles I play less than jungle. Plus, being tanky and jumping in is definitely the play style I like and it sounds like that's just Diana through and through when played properly.
To that effect, I think I'll try again with her with some more Udyr like runes/tank masteries, then do the whole philo->kages->abyssal->FH thing and see what happens. Gotta work on my ganking too. :/ I honestly use 12/17/1 masteries (after trying multiple different mastery setups) to achieve maximum tankiness in the jungle (armor, MR, minion DR and DR+2, reflect 6 damage to minions, etc.) and still get all the magic pen masteries. I run my mage rune page with magic pen marks (but these could switch), armor seals (in place of the usual mana regen), flat AP glyphs and flat AP quints (you could swap out the AP for MR and HP or something else I just like having more starting shield and damage). It lets me start regrowth pendant+potion and never get low hp in the jungle. I run her jungle very similar to my speed level Shyvana jungle going wraiths > wolves > blue > wraiths > golems > red > gank. Assuming you don't get bogged down in a 3v3 teamfight bot, you can go right back to jungling after your gank or you can back and buy. She is a little blue buff dependent until she gets 2 mana regen items. I grab philostone and then codex or catalyst, you could do philo and kage's then codex or pick up a haunting guise for maximum magic pen. Catalyst really helps her with the mana issues early on. I do recommend getting max CDR on her if you can because her ult gets down to a 7.5 ish second CD on its own and her Q gets down to a 3.6 second CD, meaning you can jump on people all day with enough mana regen. Boots should probably either be Sorcs or Mercs. You don't find AS marks to be important at all? I feel like (with my super limited experience) they are really nice to have, especially with her passive. Also, and this may just be a general jungle question, but how do you go wraiths -> wolves -> blue without getting super low, even with the shield? That seems like you're not getting much of a leash at all and will be painful. Well the masteries I use help a ton with that. Actually, I never make use of any sort of leash when doing this route. My health never gets below half for more than a second because I use shield twice on wolves, and I start my potion right before going into blue. Also, I auto attack wraiths before using my shield so my regrowth is recovering my HP while shielded. By the time I get to wolves I am back at full HP. I do this same exact route with shyvana using cloth + 5 pots with very similar results. And I have been doing that route with her (shyvana) for probably a good 50 games by now. I don't think Regrowth start is remotely necessary on Diana. If you did Wolves -> Blue and got a leash from your team you could easily start Boots + 3p and have a much greater chance of actually accomplishing something with that early gank. I'm also leaning toward completely eschewing gp10s on Diana. She has a super-strong mid-game and investing in gp10s undermines that, especially as Philo is insufficient in and of itself to maintain your mana. Chalice alone can fill the role that Philo + Catalyst/Codex is doing for you now at a significantly lower cost. I can understand skipping Philo, but I still think Kage is a good item to get on her. GP10s are generally not as strong as normal items, but 25 AP that pays for itself and opens up 2 decently considerable build paths is nothing to scoff at. 25 AP is pretty good considering it buffs 3 out of 4 abilities and your passive, so you get faster clears, more defense, and stronger ganks out of it. Kage's is such a good item in general because of what it builds into. I'm still partial to my regrowth start because I hate depending on people to leash for me because of all the crazy shit that happens when you try to leash. Also, no one will expect a "blue dependent" jungler to start somewhere other than blue, which means less chance of getting slaughtered at level 1 by an invade. I'd argue that she doesn't even require Regrowth, even without a leash. With a Boots3 or even Amp Tome (not recommended, but for comparison) start, she'll come out at level 4 with >70% health ezpz. Okay, I want replay proof of this because right now I call BS. And remember in order to get to 4 you have to go wraiths > wolves > blue > wraiths > golems > red and come out with > 70% health. Good luck with that.
Wolves > Blue > Wraiths > Wolves > Red > Wraiths gets you 4 as well, and feels a lot safer, especially because you don't fight golems.
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On August 09 2012 01:21 AsmodeusXI wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 01:18 Requizen wrote:On August 09 2012 01:16 NEOtheONE wrote:On August 09 2012 01:11 Requizen wrote:On August 09 2012 00:31 Seuss wrote:On August 08 2012 23:42 Requizen wrote:
Yeah, I'd really only consider Zhonya if I'm getting fed, because at that point there isn't a huge call for armor (since the enemy's damage will be crap), and you can just snowball with the AP. That would be my "we're winning by quite a bit, let's keep winning" item.
I just don't like Randuin's over FH on her. You already have a good AoE slow on E, so I can see stacking the active with it, but I'd rather have the CDR to get more Es out and have more damage. Plus, I don't think any part of Randuin's is as good of a mid game item as Glacial is, unless you really really need Warden's Mail because they're AD carry is out of control and kiting you, but post-6 kiting should be a non-issue. Glacial definitely stands out as the best armor item for jungle Diana because it's cheap, provides critical stats for Diana, and builds into one of the most important auras in the game. Even if I was fed, I'd rather have Glacial and work my way toward Abyssal or Aegis than grab Zhonya's (which is incidentally exactly what I did last night in the one game where I actually got to jungle Diana). On August 09 2012 00:18 NEOtheONE wrote:On August 09 2012 00:07 AsmodeusXI wrote:On August 09 2012 00:01 NEOtheONE wrote:On August 08 2012 23:32 AsmodeusXI wrote:
Yeahhh... Now that I think about it, I guess playing her top would get dicey for the same (or one of the same) reasons that Fiora is so weak: Dat lack of escape. Maybe I'll try her mid, but damn if I REALLY don't wanna learn mid... It's one of the only roles I play less than jungle. Plus, being tanky and jumping in is definitely the play style I like and it sounds like that's just Diana through and through when played properly.
To that effect, I think I'll try again with her with some more Udyr like runes/tank masteries, then do the whole philo->kages->abyssal->FH thing and see what happens. Gotta work on my ganking too. :/ I honestly use 12/17/1 masteries (after trying multiple different mastery setups) to achieve maximum tankiness in the jungle (armor, MR, minion DR and DR+2, reflect 6 damage to minions, etc.) and still get all the magic pen masteries. I run my mage rune page with magic pen marks (but these could switch), armor seals (in place of the usual mana regen), flat AP glyphs and flat AP quints (you could swap out the AP for MR and HP or something else I just like having more starting shield and damage). It lets me start regrowth pendant+potion and never get low hp in the jungle. I run her jungle very similar to my speed level Shyvana jungle going wraiths > wolves > blue > wraiths > golems > red > gank. Assuming you don't get bogged down in a 3v3 teamfight bot, you can go right back to jungling after your gank or you can back and buy. She is a little blue buff dependent until she gets 2 mana regen items. I grab philostone and then codex or catalyst, you could do philo and kage's then codex or pick up a haunting guise for maximum magic pen. Catalyst really helps her with the mana issues early on. I do recommend getting max CDR on her if you can because her ult gets down to a 7.5 ish second CD on its own and her Q gets down to a 3.6 second CD, meaning you can jump on people all day with enough mana regen. Boots should probably either be Sorcs or Mercs. You don't find AS marks to be important at all? I feel like (with my super limited experience) they are really nice to have, especially with her passive. Also, and this may just be a general jungle question, but how do you go wraiths -> wolves -> blue without getting super low, even with the shield? That seems like you're not getting much of a leash at all and will be painful. Well the masteries I use help a ton with that. Actually, I never make use of any sort of leash when doing this route. My health never gets below half for more than a second because I use shield twice on wolves, and I start my potion right before going into blue. Also, I auto attack wraiths before using my shield so my regrowth is recovering my HP while shielded. By the time I get to wolves I am back at full HP. I do this same exact route with shyvana using cloth + 5 pots with very similar results. And I have been doing that route with her (shyvana) for probably a good 50 games by now. I don't think Regrowth start is remotely necessary on Diana. If you did Wolves -> Blue and got a leash from your team you could easily start Boots + 3p and have a much greater chance of actually accomplishing something with that early gank. I'm also leaning toward completely eschewing gp10s on Diana. She has a super-strong mid-game and investing in gp10s undermines that, especially as Philo is insufficient in and of itself to maintain your mana. Chalice alone can fill the role that Philo + Catalyst/Codex is doing for you now at a significantly lower cost. I can understand skipping Philo, but I still think Kage is a good item to get on her. GP10s are generally not as strong as normal items, but 25 AP that pays for itself and opens up 2 decently considerable build paths is nothing to scoff at. 25 AP is pretty good considering it buffs 3 out of 4 abilities and your passive, so you get faster clears, more defense, and stronger ganks out of it. Kage's is such a good item in general because of what it builds into. I'm still partial to my regrowth start because I hate depending on people to leash for me because of all the crazy shit that happens when you try to leash. Also, no one will expect a "blue dependent" jungler to start somewhere other than blue, which means less chance of getting slaughtered at level 1 by an invade. I'd argue that she doesn't even require Regrowth, even without a leash. With a Boots3 or even Amp Tome (not recommended, but for comparison) start, she'll come out at level 4 with >70% health ezpz. Speaking of which, does Diana's earliest gank come at 4 or before then? Doing it first would involve 1 point in E before 2 in W, right? Or do you just run in CCless?
You can do either, really. WQW gank means more damage and safety, but WQE gank means a bit more CC. I would say it honestly depends on the enemy, how much CC your laner has, and position/health/etc.
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On August 09 2012 01:22 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 01:21 NEOtheONE wrote:On August 09 2012 01:18 Requizen wrote:On August 09 2012 01:16 NEOtheONE wrote:On August 09 2012 01:11 Requizen wrote:On August 09 2012 00:31 Seuss wrote:On August 08 2012 23:42 Requizen wrote:
Yeah, I'd really only consider Zhonya if I'm getting fed, because at that point there isn't a huge call for armor (since the enemy's damage will be crap), and you can just snowball with the AP. That would be my "we're winning by quite a bit, let's keep winning" item.
I just don't like Randuin's over FH on her. You already have a good AoE slow on E, so I can see stacking the active with it, but I'd rather have the CDR to get more Es out and have more damage. Plus, I don't think any part of Randuin's is as good of a mid game item as Glacial is, unless you really really need Warden's Mail because they're AD carry is out of control and kiting you, but post-6 kiting should be a non-issue. Glacial definitely stands out as the best armor item for jungle Diana because it's cheap, provides critical stats for Diana, and builds into one of the most important auras in the game. Even if I was fed, I'd rather have Glacial and work my way toward Abyssal or Aegis than grab Zhonya's (which is incidentally exactly what I did last night in the one game where I actually got to jungle Diana). On August 09 2012 00:18 NEOtheONE wrote:On August 09 2012 00:07 AsmodeusXI wrote:On August 09 2012 00:01 NEOtheONE wrote:On August 08 2012 23:32 AsmodeusXI wrote:
Yeahhh... Now that I think about it, I guess playing her top would get dicey for the same (or one of the same) reasons that Fiora is so weak: Dat lack of escape. Maybe I'll try her mid, but damn if I REALLY don't wanna learn mid... It's one of the only roles I play less than jungle. Plus, being tanky and jumping in is definitely the play style I like and it sounds like that's just Diana through and through when played properly.
To that effect, I think I'll try again with her with some more Udyr like runes/tank masteries, then do the whole philo->kages->abyssal->FH thing and see what happens. Gotta work on my ganking too. :/ I honestly use 12/17/1 masteries (after trying multiple different mastery setups) to achieve maximum tankiness in the jungle (armor, MR, minion DR and DR+2, reflect 6 damage to minions, etc.) and still get all the magic pen masteries. I run my mage rune page with magic pen marks (but these could switch), armor seals (in place of the usual mana regen), flat AP glyphs and flat AP quints (you could swap out the AP for MR and HP or something else I just like having more starting shield and damage). It lets me start regrowth pendant+potion and never get low hp in the jungle. I run her jungle very similar to my speed level Shyvana jungle going wraiths > wolves > blue > wraiths > golems > red > gank. Assuming you don't get bogged down in a 3v3 teamfight bot, you can go right back to jungling after your gank or you can back and buy. She is a little blue buff dependent until she gets 2 mana regen items. I grab philostone and then codex or catalyst, you could do philo and kage's then codex or pick up a haunting guise for maximum magic pen. Catalyst really helps her with the mana issues early on. I do recommend getting max CDR on her if you can because her ult gets down to a 7.5 ish second CD on its own and her Q gets down to a 3.6 second CD, meaning you can jump on people all day with enough mana regen. Boots should probably either be Sorcs or Mercs. You don't find AS marks to be important at all? I feel like (with my super limited experience) they are really nice to have, especially with her passive. Also, and this may just be a general jungle question, but how do you go wraiths -> wolves -> blue without getting super low, even with the shield? That seems like you're not getting much of a leash at all and will be painful. Well the masteries I use help a ton with that. Actually, I never make use of any sort of leash when doing this route. My health never gets below half for more than a second because I use shield twice on wolves, and I start my potion right before going into blue. Also, I auto attack wraiths before using my shield so my regrowth is recovering my HP while shielded. By the time I get to wolves I am back at full HP. I do this same exact route with shyvana using cloth + 5 pots with very similar results. And I have been doing that route with her (shyvana) for probably a good 50 games by now. I don't think Regrowth start is remotely necessary on Diana. If you did Wolves -> Blue and got a leash from your team you could easily start Boots + 3p and have a much greater chance of actually accomplishing something with that early gank. I'm also leaning toward completely eschewing gp10s on Diana. She has a super-strong mid-game and investing in gp10s undermines that, especially as Philo is insufficient in and of itself to maintain your mana. Chalice alone can fill the role that Philo + Catalyst/Codex is doing for you now at a significantly lower cost. I can understand skipping Philo, but I still think Kage is a good item to get on her. GP10s are generally not as strong as normal items, but 25 AP that pays for itself and opens up 2 decently considerable build paths is nothing to scoff at. 25 AP is pretty good considering it buffs 3 out of 4 abilities and your passive, so you get faster clears, more defense, and stronger ganks out of it. Kage's is such a good item in general because of what it builds into. I'm still partial to my regrowth start because I hate depending on people to leash for me because of all the crazy shit that happens when you try to leash. Also, no one will expect a "blue dependent" jungler to start somewhere other than blue, which means less chance of getting slaughtered at level 1 by an invade. I'd argue that she doesn't even require Regrowth, even without a leash. With a Boots3 or even Amp Tome (not recommended, but for comparison) start, she'll come out at level 4 with >70% health ezpz. Okay, I want replay proof of this because right now I call BS. And remember in order to get to 4 you have to go wraiths > wolves > blue > wraiths > golems > red and come out with > 70% health. Good luck with that. Wolves > Blue > Wraiths > Wolves > Red > Wraiths gets you 4 as well, and feels a lot safer, especially because you don't fight golems.
Right because fighting blue at level 1 after fighting wolves without a leash for either is safer than fighting golems at level 3. I'm still calling BS.
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EPT
