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On August 03 2012 03:42 YouGotNothin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2012 03:38 TheYango wrote:On August 03 2012 03:36 YouGotNothin wrote:
I have a question: why do pretty much all guides have a skill leveling order of something like Q>W>E? These orders always prioritize maxing one spell first then then maxing the next etc. Is this really the best way to level skills in most cases? I feel that there are a lot of instances where I max one skill then alternate between the other two. Other times I do something completely different like with Tristana I level WEWEWRQQQQ. Often times when trying a new hero I level everything equally just for fun and it can be effective! what do you guys think about this? Most of the kits Riot designs tend to have "one-point wonder" skills built into them. It's not a rule that you have to prioritize maxing things in a certain order, but in a lot of cases it's fairly intuitive to do so. Yeah I've noticed this, I feel that was almost the real point behind behind my post. I wish Riot would make more champions whose skill leveling orders are a bit more of a decision instead of an obvious oh this is damage, max first, this is steroid, max 2nd, this is utility max last. It always bothers me in the champion spotlights when Phreak does this.
That sounds like a good idea until you look at champions that are like this. Usually the "more options" reads as "needs more levels to work". Almost all champs have a skill thats on 1skillpoint from lvl4 to lvl14 - if that skill doesn´t serve it´s key functionality without points the champ feels severely handicapped.
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On August 03 2012 03:50 Alaric wrote:
As I mentioned when Zyra's spotlight came out, I noticed Phreak was saying "max this first if you want xxx, that first if you want yyy, and this one first if you'd rather have zzz", which I think is an improvement since it promotes choice and thoughts in players, even low level, especially those targeted by those spotlight advices. Of course you still no you won't max W first on Zyra, but well...
They tried to encourage it with the CDR per level (which is still bloody strong), but the damage on her spells is way more important to her.
I think that's one of the things it comes down to. When you have a role (damage dealer, tank, support/healer), generally only one or two abilities directly impact that, while the others support it. For example, Viktor. Q and E both do damage, but Q is more sustained and has a defensive component, while E is more the "BOOM FUCK YOU" damage that you want, so you're obviously going to do that first.
Even someone like Brand. All his abilities do damage, but Q and E are a bit more on the utility side (stun and spread DoT), while W is your big boomer.
There are of course fringe cases, but for the most part you're going to take the spells first that make you better at what you do.
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Lee Sin probably a good example of this champion I think, can choose to max Q/W depending on how you want to play the lane. Udyr as well.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 03 2012 03:55 Unentschieden wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2012 03:42 YouGotNothin wrote:On August 03 2012 03:38 TheYango wrote:On August 03 2012 03:36 YouGotNothin wrote:
I have a question: why do pretty much all guides have a skill leveling order of something like Q>W>E? These orders always prioritize maxing one spell first then then maxing the next etc. Is this really the best way to level skills in most cases? I feel that there are a lot of instances where I max one skill then alternate between the other two. Other times I do something completely different like with Tristana I level WEWEWRQQQQ. Often times when trying a new hero I level everything equally just for fun and it can be effective! what do you guys think about this? Most of the kits Riot designs tend to have "one-point wonder" skills built into them. It's not a rule that you have to prioritize maxing things in a certain order, but in a lot of cases it's fairly intuitive to do so. Yeah I've noticed this, I feel that was almost the real point behind behind my post. I wish Riot would make more champions whose skill leveling orders are a bit more of a decision instead of an obvious oh this is damage, max first, this is steroid, max 2nd, this is utility max last. It always bothers me in the champion spotlights when Phreak does this. That sounds like a good idea until you look at champions that are like this. Usually the "more options" reads as "needs more levels to work". Almost all champs have a skill thats on 1skillpoint from lvl4 to lvl14 - if that skill doesn´t serve it´s key functionality without points the champ feels severely handicapped.
Except you can design skills that serve their function on 1 point, but are also significantly better at it with more. Its not so much about a skill *needing* more points as the tradeoffs between leveling 2 skills.
An example of this is Caitlyn's W vs. Caitlyn's E. Traps are significantly better in sieges, but Net is comparatively strong in teamfights. Your skilling priority between the two depends significantly on the flow of the game or the team-comps in question.
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On August 03 2012 03:54 epoc wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2012 03:41 Requizen wrote:On August 03 2012 03:33 epoc wrote:
It baffles me how irelia's e has 0.5 ap ratio. Might as well have nothing. If I was working at riot first thing I would do is fix things like these to 1.0 or 2.0 ratio. Then tf would give 60 extra magic dmg This just in, Irelia needs buffs. Stun/Slow not strong enough, needs to nuke shit as well. On August 03 2012 03:36 YouGotNothin wrote:
I have a question: why do pretty much all guides have a skill leveling order of something like Q>W>E? These orders always prioritize maxing one spell first then then maxing the next etc. Is this really the best way to level skills in most cases? I feel that there are a lot of instances where I max one skill then alternate between the other two. Other times I do something completely different like with Tristana I level WEWEWRQQQQ. Often times when trying a new hero I level everything equally just for fun and it can be effective! what do you guys think about this? I'd like to see this, but honestly on most champs they have one ability that is so useful/scales so well with levels that it's counterproductive to not max it as fast as possible. Often time, this is your big damage ability, and you want it doing as much damage as fast as possible, or a CC/Shield/other utility spell that reduces CD by a lot. It's more like the fact that there is no ratio on e
Does there really need to be? It already does decently respectable damage baseline, and it's not like she lacks damage in other areas. If anything, she already does enough damage with just TF and tank items, more than she probably should.
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Who's bright idea was it to allow people to dodge from the queue and get no time penalty? Can troll all day spamming decline.
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On August 03 2012 03:59 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2012 03:50 Alaric wrote:
As I mentioned when Zyra's spotlight came out, I noticed Phreak was saying "max this first if you want xxx, that first if you want yyy, and this one first if you'd rather have zzz", which I think is an improvement since it promotes choice and thoughts in players, even low level, especially those targeted by those spotlight advices. Of course you still no you won't max W first on Zyra, but well... They tried to encourage it with the CDR per level (which is still bloody strong), but the damage on her spells is way more important to her. I think that's one of the things it comes down to. When you have a role (damage dealer, tank, support/healer), generally only one or two abilities directly impact that, while the others support it. For example, Viktor. Q and E both do damage, but Q is more sustained and has a defensive component, while E is more the "BOOM FUCK YOU" damage that you want, so you're obviously going to do that first. Even someone like Brand. All his abilities do damage, but Q and E are a bit more on the utility side (stun and spread DoT), while W is your big boomer. There are of course fringe cases, but for the most part you're going to take the spells first that make you better at what you do.
An interesting thing, though, is that lately I've adapted Aranium's Viktor build - QEQEER then get W at 8 and prioritize E - with MS quints
It can be dangerous without W to zone jungle ganks, but the lane control it gives you is immense. There are still times when I want W at 4 though. I still need to update this into the Viktor thread, but I need to completely redo most of that OP since I've played ~150 ranked Viktor games since I wrote that.
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On August 03 2012 04:02 NovaTheFeared wrote:
Who's bright idea was it to allow people to dodge from the queue and get no time penalty? Can troll all day spamming decline.
I thought they still got a time penalty.
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The same guy that thought the DotA 2 system was genius.
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On August 03 2012 04:04 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2012 04:02 NovaTheFeared wrote:
Who's bright idea was it to allow people to dodge from the queue and get no time penalty? Can troll all day spamming decline. I thought they still got a time penalty.
I hit decline several times in a row to try, it let me requeue instantly :/
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United States47024 Posts
On August 03 2012 03:59 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2012 03:50 Alaric wrote:
As I mentioned when Zyra's spotlight came out, I noticed Phreak was saying "max this first if you want xxx, that first if you want yyy, and this one first if you'd rather have zzz", which I think is an improvement since it promotes choice and thoughts in players, even low level, especially those targeted by those spotlight advices. Of course you still no you won't max W first on Zyra, but well... They tried to encourage it with the CDR per level (which is still bloody strong), but the damage on her spells is way more important to her. I think that's one of the things it comes down to. When you have a role (damage dealer, tank, support/healer), generally only one or two abilities directly impact that, while the others support it. For example, Viktor. Q and E both do damage, but Q is more sustained and has a defensive component, while E is more the "BOOM FUCK YOU" damage that you want, so you're obviously going to do that first. Even someone like Brand. All his abilities do damage, but Q and E are a bit more on the utility side (stun and spread DoT), while W is your big boomer. There are of course fringe cases, but for the most part you're going to take the spells first that make you better at what you do.
I don't think its a big deal that there's a skill that you should max first.
It seems a bit more silly that so many champ kits have no-brainer 1-point-wonders that are clearly less fitting than the other skills on the kit. An example here would be Annie's E or Kassadin's W. Their benefits to the champ's kit are so obviously tangential that it's a no-brainer to keep them on 1 point.
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On August 03 2012 04:04 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2012 04:02 NovaTheFeared wrote:
Who's bright idea was it to allow people to dodge from the queue and get no time penalty? Can troll all day spamming decline. I thought they still got a time penalty.
Only if you actually get into champ select and leave. Declining just drops you out of queue.
On August 03 2012 04:03 jcarlsoniv wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2012 03:59 Requizen wrote:On August 03 2012 03:50 Alaric wrote:
As I mentioned when Zyra's spotlight came out, I noticed Phreak was saying "max this first if you want xxx, that first if you want yyy, and this one first if you'd rather have zzz", which I think is an improvement since it promotes choice and thoughts in players, even low level, especially those targeted by those spotlight advices. Of course you still no you won't max W first on Zyra, but well... They tried to encourage it with the CDR per level (which is still bloody strong), but the damage on her spells is way more important to her. I think that's one of the things it comes down to. When you have a role (damage dealer, tank, support/healer), generally only one or two abilities directly impact that, while the others support it. For example, Viktor. Q and E both do damage, but Q is more sustained and has a defensive component, while E is more the "BOOM FUCK YOU" damage that you want, so you're obviously going to do that first. Even someone like Brand. All his abilities do damage, but Q and E are a bit more on the utility side (stun and spread DoT), while W is your big boomer. There are of course fringe cases, but for the most part you're going to take the spells first that make you better at what you do. An interesting thing, though, is that lately I've adapted Aranium's Viktor build - QEQEER then get W at 8 and prioritize E - with MS quints It can be dangerous without W to zone jungle ganks, but the lane control it gives you is immense. There are still times when I want W at 4 though. I still need to update this into the Viktor thread, but I need to completely redo most of that OP since I've played ~150 ranked Viktor games since I wrote that.
Please do, Vik is about the only mid I play anymore.
I'd feel super vulnerable without W, but I suppose it depends on a lot of things (who the jungler is, the status of the lane, etc). Does the second point in Q really boost it that much?
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On August 03 2012 04:06 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2012 03:59 Requizen wrote:On August 03 2012 03:50 Alaric wrote:
As I mentioned when Zyra's spotlight came out, I noticed Phreak was saying "max this first if you want xxx, that first if you want yyy, and this one first if you'd rather have zzz", which I think is an improvement since it promotes choice and thoughts in players, even low level, especially those targeted by those spotlight advices. Of course you still no you won't max W first on Zyra, but well... They tried to encourage it with the CDR per level (which is still bloody strong), but the damage on her spells is way more important to her. I think that's one of the things it comes down to. When you have a role (damage dealer, tank, support/healer), generally only one or two abilities directly impact that, while the others support it. For example, Viktor. Q and E both do damage, but Q is more sustained and has a defensive component, while E is more the "BOOM FUCK YOU" damage that you want, so you're obviously going to do that first. Even someone like Brand. All his abilities do damage, but Q and E are a bit more on the utility side (stun and spread DoT), while W is your big boomer. There are of course fringe cases, but for the most part you're going to take the spells first that make you better at what you do. I don't think its a big deal that there's a skill that you should max first. It seems a bit more silly that so many champ kits have no-brainer 1-point-wonders that are clearly less fitting than the other skills on the kit. An example here would be Annie's E or Kassadin's W. Their benefits to the champ's kit are so obviously tangential that it's a no-brainer to keep them on 1 point.
Well, older champs have a different design schema than new champs. Very few that have been released recently have a placeholder/tangential ability, only one I can really think of is Draven's knockback thing. They've been a lot better about making very cohesive kits.
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On August 03 2012 04:05 NovaTheFeared wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2012 04:04 Mogwai wrote:On August 03 2012 04:02 NovaTheFeared wrote:
Who's bright idea was it to allow people to dodge from the queue and get no time penalty? Can troll all day spamming decline. I thought they still got a time penalty. I hit decline several times in a row to try, it let me requeue instantly :/
LOL wat a fail system.
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On August 03 2012 04:03 jcarlsoniv wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2012 03:59 Requizen wrote:On August 03 2012 03:50 Alaric wrote:
As I mentioned when Zyra's spotlight came out, I noticed Phreak was saying "max this first if you want xxx, that first if you want yyy, and this one first if you'd rather have zzz", which I think is an improvement since it promotes choice and thoughts in players, even low level, especially those targeted by those spotlight advices. Of course you still no you won't max W first on Zyra, but well... They tried to encourage it with the CDR per level (which is still bloody strong), but the damage on her spells is way more important to her. I think that's one of the things it comes down to. When you have a role (damage dealer, tank, support/healer), generally only one or two abilities directly impact that, while the others support it. For example, Viktor. Q and E both do damage, but Q is more sustained and has a defensive component, while E is more the "BOOM FUCK YOU" damage that you want, so you're obviously going to do that first. Even someone like Brand. All his abilities do damage, but Q and E are a bit more on the utility side (stun and spread DoT), while W is your big boomer. There are of course fringe cases, but for the most part you're going to take the spells first that make you better at what you do. An interesting thing, though, is that lately I've adapted Aranium's Viktor build - QEQEER then get W at 8 and prioritize E - with MS quints It can be dangerous without W to zone jungle ganks, but the lane control it gives you is immense. There are still times when I want W at 4 though. I still need to update this into the Viktor thread, but I need to completely redo most of that OP since I've played ~150 ranked Viktor games since I wrote that.
Tried it, didn't like since it's easy to get camped if they notice it, but well it's also experience and warding and stuff. Also I like to have level 2 E before I use it for fear of running myself oom (at level 1 both Q and E do pretty comparable damage and most champs will still last hit with aa so it's easy to keep Qing them till you hit level 3).
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On August 03 2012 04:01 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2012 03:55 Unentschieden wrote:On August 03 2012 03:42 YouGotNothin wrote:On August 03 2012 03:38 TheYango wrote:On August 03 2012 03:36 YouGotNothin wrote:
I have a question: why do pretty much all guides have a skill leveling order of something like Q>W>E? These orders always prioritize maxing one spell first then then maxing the next etc. Is this really the best way to level skills in most cases? I feel that there are a lot of instances where I max one skill then alternate between the other two. Other times I do something completely different like with Tristana I level WEWEWRQQQQ. Often times when trying a new hero I level everything equally just for fun and it can be effective! what do you guys think about this? Most of the kits Riot designs tend to have "one-point wonder" skills built into them. It's not a rule that you have to prioritize maxing things in a certain order, but in a lot of cases it's fairly intuitive to do so. Yeah I've noticed this, I feel that was almost the real point behind behind my post. I wish Riot would make more champions whose skill leveling orders are a bit more of a decision instead of an obvious oh this is damage, max first, this is steroid, max 2nd, this is utility max last. It always bothers me in the champion spotlights when Phreak does this. That sounds like a good idea until you look at champions that are like this. Usually the "more options" reads as "needs more levels to work". Almost all champs have a skill thats on 1skillpoint from lvl4 to lvl14 - if that skill doesn´t serve it´s key functionality without points the champ feels severely handicapped. Except you can design skills that serve their function on 1 point, but are also significantly better at it with more. Its not so much about a skill *needing* more points as the tradeoffs between leveling 2 skills. An example of this is Caitlyn's W vs. Caitlyn's E. Traps are significantly better in sieges, but Net is comparatively strong in teamfights. Your skilling priority between the two depends significantly on the flow of the game or the team-comps in question.
Yeah but thats what most champs have already.
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On August 03 2012 04:07 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2012 04:04 Mogwai wrote:On August 03 2012 04:02 NovaTheFeared wrote:
Who's bright idea was it to allow people to dodge from the queue and get no time penalty? Can troll all day spamming decline. I thought they still got a time penalty. Only if you actually get into champ select and leave. Declining just drops you out of queue. Show nested quote +On August 03 2012 04:03 jcarlsoniv wrote:On August 03 2012 03:59 Requizen wrote:On August 03 2012 03:50 Alaric wrote:
As I mentioned when Zyra's spotlight came out, I noticed Phreak was saying "max this first if you want xxx, that first if you want yyy, and this one first if you'd rather have zzz", which I think is an improvement since it promotes choice and thoughts in players, even low level, especially those targeted by those spotlight advices. Of course you still no you won't max W first on Zyra, but well... They tried to encourage it with the CDR per level (which is still bloody strong), but the damage on her spells is way more important to her. I think that's one of the things it comes down to. When you have a role (damage dealer, tank, support/healer), generally only one or two abilities directly impact that, while the others support it. For example, Viktor. Q and E both do damage, but Q is more sustained and has a defensive component, while E is more the "BOOM FUCK YOU" damage that you want, so you're obviously going to do that first. Even someone like Brand. All his abilities do damage, but Q and E are a bit more on the utility side (stun and spread DoT), while W is your big boomer. There are of course fringe cases, but for the most part you're going to take the spells first that make you better at what you do. An interesting thing, though, is that lately I've adapted Aranium's Viktor build - QEQEER then get W at 8 and prioritize E - with MS quints It can be dangerous without W to zone jungle ganks, but the lane control it gives you is immense. There are still times when I want W at 4 though. I still need to update this into the Viktor thread, but I need to completely redo most of that OP since I've played ~150 ranked Viktor games since I wrote that. Please do, Vik is about the only mid I play anymore. I'd feel super vulnerable without W, but I suppose it depends on a lot of things (who the jungler is, the status of the lane, etc). Does the second point in Q really boost it that much?
It takes a bit of getting used to without having your stun to keep you safe. However, it's the MS quints that truly make this build terrifying. I tried it once and instantly fell in love with it. And yes, the 2nd point in Q makes a very noticeable difference. At lvl 4, you can pretty much take half of your enemy's health with QE, and the MS quints really let you get up there to do it. You can also avoid ganks if you have the foresight to know it's coming (or wards) without W because you're moving 4.5% faster.
I will almost exclusively use QEQEE in solo queue because it really lets me apply a ton of pressure in lane. Playing Viktor in arranged 5s, I'll often opt to just go standard EQWE (or EQEW) because we usually used Viktor in poke comp, and all the matters is that, at the very least, I farm and stay safe in lane.
Edit: The MS quints also integrate well with your ult when people try to escape.
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On August 03 2012 04:09 De4ngus wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2012 04:05 NovaTheFeared wrote:On August 03 2012 04:04 Mogwai wrote:On August 03 2012 04:02 NovaTheFeared wrote:
Who's bright idea was it to allow people to dodge from the queue and get no time penalty? Can troll all day spamming decline. I thought they still got a time penalty. I hit decline several times in a row to try, it let me requeue instantly :/ LOL wat a fail system.
The most interesting thing here is that there are actually people who think it is a good way to pass there time to queue and decline whenever it comes up. WTF. I REALLY don't understand why anyone would spend their time doing that.
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On August 03 2012 04:02 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2012 03:54 epoc wrote:On August 03 2012 03:41 Requizen wrote:On August 03 2012 03:33 epoc wrote:
It baffles me how irelia's e has 0.5 ap ratio. Might as well have nothing. If I was working at riot first thing I would do is fix things like these to 1.0 or 2.0 ratio. Then tf would give 60 extra magic dmg This just in, Irelia needs buffs. Stun/Slow not strong enough, needs to nuke shit as well. On August 03 2012 03:36 YouGotNothin wrote:
I have a question: why do pretty much all guides have a skill leveling order of something like Q>W>E? These orders always prioritize maxing one spell first then then maxing the next etc. Is this really the best way to level skills in most cases? I feel that there are a lot of instances where I max one skill then alternate between the other two. Other times I do something completely different like with Tristana I level WEWEWRQQQQ. Often times when trying a new hero I level everything equally just for fun and it can be effective! what do you guys think about this? I'd like to see this, but honestly on most champs they have one ability that is so useful/scales so well with levels that it's counterproductive to not max it as fast as possible. Often time, this is your big damage ability, and you want it doing as much damage as fast as possible, or a CC/Shield/other utility spell that reduces CD by a lot. It's more like the fact that there is no ratio on e Does there really need to be? It already does decently respectable damage baseline, and it's not like she lacks damage in other areas. If anything, she already does enough damage with just TF and tank items, more than she probably should.
Almost every damage spell has a ratio. And no irelia isn't op and wouldn't be
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On August 03 2012 04:28 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2012 04:09 De4ngus wrote:On August 03 2012 04:05 NovaTheFeared wrote:On August 03 2012 04:04 Mogwai wrote:On August 03 2012 04:02 NovaTheFeared wrote:
Who's bright idea was it to allow people to dodge from the queue and get no time penalty? Can troll all day spamming decline. I thought they still got a time penalty. I hit decline several times in a row to try, it let me requeue instantly :/ LOL wat a fail system. The most interesting thing here is that there are actually people who think it is a good way to pass there time to queue and decline whenever it comes up. WTF. I REALLY don't understand why anyone would spend their time doing that.
Rule #4 of the internet: humanity is full of complete and utter asshats, many of which want nothing more than to make everyone else unhappy.
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EPT
