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On July 26 2012 21:36 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2012 17:55 obesechicken13 wrote:
Regarding the talk about college vs going pro if you're already pro. I think people these days look a lot for what school you came from and what it says before your name on a piece of paper they gave you. If you don't have that piece of paper you have a harder time finding the job statistically.
Very stupid. I disagree. People aren't looking for a piece of paper by your name, they are looking for the leadership and skillset that you earning that paper provided you with. If you can prove in a job interview that you have those skills you aren't necessarily at much of a disadvantage at all. Ofcourse going to school makes things easier, just the sheer fact that you invested a huge amount of your networth at the time to better yourself makes companies think you believe in yourself. But a degree these days is vastly over stated.
Actually they are looking for the piece of paper.
There are often a few hundred applicants per open job, so if 100 people apply and say they can do the job but only 50 have a paper that says they at least sat in some course that talked about it, they simply throw the other 50 applications without the paper into the trash without an interview.
It's a simple filter:
100 applicants
50 with paper, other 50 into trash
25 of those have work experience, other 25 into trash
10 of those have done related stuff in their spare time, other 15 into trash
5 of those look like they have got interpersonal skills, 5 more into trash
5 people left for an interview.
Read: http://joelonsoftware.com/articles/ResumeRead.html
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On July 26 2012 22:18 Morfildur wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2012 21:36 iCanada wrote:On July 26 2012 17:55 obesechicken13 wrote:
Regarding the talk about college vs going pro if you're already pro. I think people these days look a lot for what school you came from and what it says before your name on a piece of paper they gave you. If you don't have that piece of paper you have a harder time finding the job statistically.
Very stupid. I disagree. People aren't looking for a piece of paper by your name, they are looking for the leadership and skillset that you earning that paper provided you with. If you can prove in a job interview that you have those skills you aren't necessarily at much of a disadvantage at all. Ofcourse going to school makes things easier, just the sheer fact that you invested a huge amount of your networth at the time to better yourself makes companies think you believe in yourself. But a degree these days is vastly over stated. Actually they are looking for the piece of paper. There are often a few hundred applicants per open job, so if 100 people apply and say they can do the job but only 50 have a paper that says they at least sat in some course that talked about it, they simply throw the other 50 applications without the paper into the trash without an interview. It's a simple filter: 100 applicants 50 with paper, other 50 into trash 25 of those have work experience, other 25 into trash 10 of those have done related stuff in their spare time, other 15 into trash 5 of those look like they have got interpersonal skills, 5 more into trash 5 people left for an interview. Read: http://joelonsoftware.com/articles/ResumeRead.html
Depends what kind of position you're going for, really, but yeah, the paper is really important for getting you to the point where they'll look for other things.
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On July 26 2012 22:12 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2012 21:36 iCanada wrote:On July 26 2012 17:55 obesechicken13 wrote:
Regarding the talk about college vs going pro if you're already pro. I think people these days look a lot for what school you came from and what it says before your name on a piece of paper they gave you. If you don't have that piece of paper you have a harder time finding the job statistically.
Very stupid. I disagree. People aren't looking for a piece of paper by your name, they are looking for the leadership and skillset that you earning that paper provided you with. If you can prove in a job interview that you have those skills you aren't necessarily at much of a disadvantage at all. Ofcourse going to school makes things easier, just the sheer fact that you invested a huge amount of your networth at the time to better yourself makes companies think you believe in yourself. But a degree these days is vastly over stated. This would be logical and I'd like it if people hired on ability to perform. I'm just not sure how much is learned during an interview.
I'm not a hiring manager but I have reviewed resumes and performed interviews to hire people for my current project, and it sort of depends on the type of person you're hiring. If you're hiring someone with very little work experience, then you'll look a lot more closely at their college, what coursework they completed, what their grades were, internships, what projects they worked on, etc. You're never expecting a college student to be "prepared" to do quality work immediately (this is in the field of software development), but you are looking for people with potential and that are easily malleable. Basically, the college part shows that they've received at least a minimum level of training in the styles and art of software design and development, and in the interview you're looking to see if they have the mindset and drive to learn quickly and accept criticism. Of course, if a someone right out of college can show intermediate to expert level knowledge of actual software development, that's just a giant "HIRE ME NOW" button. Usually those people know their worth and take the top-end jobs at major firms.
For people farther out of college that have more job experience, the job experience is far more important than the college information. Now, if a person never attended college then that is a red flag. Usually in the interview we look for evidence that the person has found a way to make up for the lack of academic study of software development and design principles. We look for evidence that the person isn't just a hacker (not like a security hacker, but that they just haphazardly code to solve a problem without care to the overall approach to the solution). If the person has a college background and no obvious red flags, then we generally prod to find out if their experience is genuine (not inflated for the resume) and get a sense of just what sort of impact they could make on our project on day one.
So, you're sort of right that the interview isn't the most informative part of the hiring process. Indeed, it is the resume that is the most important part. But, the interview is valuable for validating someone's resume, discovering their personality and fit with your team, addressing any red flags, and making sure that both sides are aware of what they are getting into.
P.S. As far as "name on a piece of paper is concerned" we approach it as little more than a "cool fact" about someone. It's never THE REASON you hire someone, but it's like a +1 in the overall scoring system. All things being completely equal, you'd take someone from a better school over a worse school, but there are a lot of things about a person that can completely overshadow where they went to college. It is more important though (at least to us) that someone has gone to college (or shown they have worked to achieve the same level of academic training on their own).
EDIT: Bah, yeah what Joel said. Before I started doing these interviews for my current project I actually read that blog post and a few others related to that for ideas about how to conduct the interview.
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What has the greatest gold value; 6 flat arpen or 3% lifesteal? I find it hard to value because both stats come from so few items..
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Every company has a different hiring practice. Some will automatically throw your resume away if you have a college degree, believe it or not. Some will automatically throw your resume away if you don't. Some people don't care about resumes, they just see it as an application form and base all of their hiring on the interview alone. Even in a company that says they hire their employees in such and such fashion -- it's still open to interpretation and manipulation by it's hiring managers.
I never understood the reasoning of building based on "greatest gold value." There are too many factors to isolate the statitics in such fashion.
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On July 26 2012 21:50 Zhiroo wrote:
Playing as Blitz against Ez/Corki/Trist is pretty annoying since even if you grab them they escape.
It's hilarious on trist cause his grab keeps on going for miles to try to grab her when she jumps.
"COME BACK, I LOVE YOU."
"...nope. :|"
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On July 26 2012 16:20 IMoperator wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2012 16:18 JackDino wrote:On July 26 2012 16:16 IMoperator wrote:On July 26 2012 16:04 Sufficiency wrote:On July 26 2012 15:58 IMoperator wrote:On July 26 2012 15:53 Sufficiency wrote:On July 26 2012 15:50 IMoperator wrote:On July 26 2012 15:36 AngryFarmer wrote:On July 26 2012 15:34 IMoperator wrote:
Wtf are you supposed to do vs. blitz in lane? He is my most hated champ right now, I can't do anything vs. him and any combo. He zones you out so hard by sitting in the bushes and you either get no farm, or he pulls you and you die. It's so fucking annoying, whenever I see a blitz it just makes me afk now because I know laning is going to be a bitch. Please tell me there's something I can do? Stand behind your creeps and have a decent support. I'm assuming you're talking about bot lane. (Janna kind of crushes him as a support) Yeah I'm talking about bot. Even when I stand behind minions their ad carry will just keep harassing me, I'm really lost. Which AD did you play and which support did you get? I main Ezreal and I had Leona/Ali support. So I think Alistar/Leona support should always be in front of you. You pretty much automatically win the trade if your support gets grabbed instead of you. well if they get grabbed do I focus their ad carry? because my support will basically be dead nigh instantly, and that just leaves me against two. If your leona/alis support dies to a blitz grab they need better runes/masteries. If they grab your support you sit on their ad, unless their AD is in a bad position for you then you just slap the blitz. Don't go tank a minionwave just to attack the enemy ad or whatever. But if I attack the blitz their ad carry will just free focus me right?
Support gets pulled -> they should CC and you should lay your damage into whoever you can get in range of. Ideally this would be the AD but if he's farther back then punish blitz. Ezreal W wrecks most ADs in extended trades. This works with taric, leona, alistar exceptionally well but can also work fine with janna/lulu - janna/lulu have the luxury of also staying further back in the first place.
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On July 26 2012 22:42 jacosajh wrote:
Every company has a different hiring practice. Some will automatically throw your resume away if you have a college degree, believe it or not. Some will automatically throw your resume away if you don't. Some people don't care about resumes, they just see it as an application form and base all of their hiring on the interview alone. Even in a company that says they hire their employees in such and such fashion -- it's still open to interpretation and manipulation by it's hiring managers.
I never understood the reasoning of building based on "greatest gold value." There are too many factors to isolate the statitics in such fashion.
I can't see what type of company throws away a resume if the person has a college degree. The only one I could see is one where such a person is overqualified and the company doesn't want to have to pay that premium. In that case, I don't know if it is a job a person with a degree actually really wants. Would be interested to find out I was wrong though. Have any links to such examples?
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On July 26 2012 22:59 Takkara wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2012 22:42 jacosajh wrote:
Every company has a different hiring practice. Some will automatically throw your resume away if you have a college degree, believe it or not. Some will automatically throw your resume away if you don't. Some people don't care about resumes, they just see it as an application form and base all of their hiring on the interview alone. Even in a company that says they hire their employees in such and such fashion -- it's still open to interpretation and manipulation by it's hiring managers.
I never understood the reasoning of building based on "greatest gold value." There are too many factors to isolate the statitics in such fashion. I can't see what type of company throws away a resume if the person has a college degree. The only one I could see is one where such a person is overqualified and the company doesn't want to have to pay that premium. In that case, I don't know if it is a job a person with a degree actually really wants. Would be interested to find out I was wrong though. Have any links to such examples?
A friend of my grandmothers finished college for something(nursing i think) and in the downtime between finding a job she applied at a bunch of places around here(restaurants etc) all called her and told her shes overqualified and they didnt understand why she'd be applying to such a place.(more or less told her to fuck off)
So yeah over qualified is like the only reason i could see
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On July 26 2012 22:59 Takkara wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2012 22:42 jacosajh wrote:
Every company has a different hiring practice. Some will automatically throw your resume away if you have a college degree, believe it or not. Some will automatically throw your resume away if you don't. Some people don't care about resumes, they just see it as an application form and base all of their hiring on the interview alone. Even in a company that says they hire their employees in such and such fashion -- it's still open to interpretation and manipulation by it's hiring managers.
I never understood the reasoning of building based on "greatest gold value." There are too many factors to isolate the statitics in such fashion. I can't see what type of company throws away a resume if the person has a college degree. The only one I could see is one where such a person is overqualified and the company doesn't want to have to pay that premium. In that case, I don't know if it is a job a person with a degree actually really wants. Would be interested to find out I was wrong though. Have any links to such examples?
There are lots of people who are pretty damn smart and sat through the education system for quite a while, but over time realized that they like doing X a lot. Now if X doesn't require whatever awesome degree they earned, they are overqualified.
I personally know at least one person who was told to look for something else because he was overqualified when he applied for something he liked.
I could even imagine a company to prefer "appropriately qualified" people simply because the less qualified people might have a smaller selection of jobs they can apply for, while the overqualifed can shoot for "better" jobs too.
There's also those people who drop out from high business positions and start doing pottery and the likes. They just took forever to realize that's what they actally want to do. Education has very little to do with your preferences.
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On July 26 2012 22:59 Takkara wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2012 22:42 jacosajh wrote:
Every company has a different hiring practice. Some will automatically throw your resume away if you have a college degree, believe it or not. Some will automatically throw your resume away if you don't. Some people don't care about resumes, they just see it as an application form and base all of their hiring on the interview alone. Even in a company that says they hire their employees in such and such fashion -- it's still open to interpretation and manipulation by it's hiring managers.
I never understood the reasoning of building based on "greatest gold value." There are too many factors to isolate the statitics in such fashion. I can't see what type of company throws away a resume if the person has a college degree. The only one I could see is one where such a person is overqualified and the company doesn't want to have to pay that premium. In that case, I don't know if it is a job a person with a degree actually really wants. Would be interested to find out I was wrong though. Have any links to such examples?
There's a good and rational reason to not hire overqualified people. If they are likely to get a better job offer at another company very soon (because they have qualifications that would justify it), it's much less likely they'll work at your company for a long time, which means that essentially you're expecting the person to leave fairly quickly.
This applies much less to software development, where opportunities for growth (both intellectually and career wise) are much more flexible. But if you're hiring a cashier with an Ivy league engineering, you're not going to kid yourself about whether you'll be offering said person a satisfying and engaging job for a long time, and the chance that said person won't find a job offer you can't possibly match.
That said, I don't understand the education-hostile attitude many people here seem to have, especially gtsrs. I know quite a few people who are very happy with the work they do, and the vast majority of those (disproportionally among the crowd of people I know in general) have a college degree. You don't need one to work in a field you love, but it's much more likely that you'll be able to find such a job if you have one, and often you don't really know yet what exactly you'll love doing early enough to specialize before even going to university.
(I understand that things are pretty bad in the US where unemployment is high *and* university costs are outrageous, but that's not the case in many parts of the world, and even here you're much better off if you have a degree. Naturally you'd want to study something you enjoy or at least find worthwhile, not something you force yourself to do -- otherwise you're pretty likely to get much out of it.)
As for hiring people, in our industry (software engineering), accomplishments and achievements always outweigh a degree. Many of the best programmers quit college to start their own start-up companies. But it'd be delusional to pretend that most college drop-outs are great programmers, and in the absence of other evidence -- especially for new graduates with no significant experience --, a good university degree suggests that someone is /probably/ smart (and/or disciplined) enough for the job, though you still have to establish whether he's good enough at actually doing it (and that's what interviews are for). If you can't demonstrate that you're good, no degree will save you. But if it's you vs a 100 other new graduates and you all have the same track record as far as past achievements go, the guy who excelled at a hard university certainly gets called before the people who barely passed their relevant classes.
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On July 26 2012 23:15 bmn wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2012 22:59 Takkara wrote:On July 26 2012 22:42 jacosajh wrote:
Every company has a different hiring practice. Some will automatically throw your resume away if you have a college degree, believe it or not. Some will automatically throw your resume away if you don't. Some people don't care about resumes, they just see it as an application form and base all of their hiring on the interview alone. Even in a company that says they hire their employees in such and such fashion -- it's still open to interpretation and manipulation by it's hiring managers.
I never understood the reasoning of building based on "greatest gold value." There are too many factors to isolate the statitics in such fashion. I can't see what type of company throws away a resume if the person has a college degree. The only one I could see is one where such a person is overqualified and the company doesn't want to have to pay that premium. In that case, I don't know if it is a job a person with a degree actually really wants. Would be interested to find out I was wrong though. Have any links to such examples? There's a good and rational reason to not hire overqualified people. If they are likely to get a better job offer at another company very soon (because they have qualifications that would justify it), it's much less likely they'll work at your company for a long time, which means that essentially you're expecting the person to leave fairly quickly. This applies much less to software development, where opportunities for growth (both intellectually and career wise) are much more flexible. But if you're hiring a cashier with an Ivy league engineering, you're not going to kid yourself about whether you'll be offering said person a satisfying and engaging job for a long time, and the chance that said person won'
Also it's really awkward. Why would anyone with a PhD, say, want to apply a job as a cashier? If someone with such education background asks you for such a job, won't you think he is a nutcase?
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On July 26 2012 23:24 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2012 23:15 bmn wrote:On July 26 2012 22:59 Takkara wrote:On July 26 2012 22:42 jacosajh wrote:
Every company has a different hiring practice. Some will automatically throw your resume away if you have a college degree, believe it or not. Some will automatically throw your resume away if you don't. Some people don't care about resumes, they just see it as an application form and base all of their hiring on the interview alone. Even in a company that says they hire their employees in such and such fashion -- it's still open to interpretation and manipulation by it's hiring managers.
I never understood the reasoning of building based on "greatest gold value." There are too many factors to isolate the statitics in such fashion. I can't see what type of company throws away a resume if the person has a college degree. The only one I could see is one where such a person is overqualified and the company doesn't want to have to pay that premium. In that case, I don't know if it is a job a person with a degree actually really wants. Would be interested to find out I was wrong though. Have any links to such examples? There's a good and rational reason to not hire overqualified people. If they are likely to get a better job offer at another company very soon (because they have qualifications that would justify it), it's much less likely they'll work at your company for a long time, which means that essentially you're expecting the person to leave fairly quickly. This applies much less to software development, where opportunities for growth (both intellectually and career wise) are much more flexible. But if you're hiring a cashier with an Ivy league engineering, you're not going to kid yourself about whether you'll be offering said person a satisfying and engaging job for a long time, and the chance that said person won' Also it's really awkward. Why would anyone with a PhD, say, want to apply a job as a cashier? If someone with such education background asks you for such a job, won't you think he is a nutcase?
Because having income beats not having income. When is the last time you looked at unemployment stats?
Edit: No, that absolutely does not make someone a nutcase. See http://chronicle.com/blogs/innovations/why-did-17-million-students-go-to-college/27634 for some old numbers, I have newer ones but not available online right now.
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On July 26 2012 14:12 HazMat wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2012 11:10 Ryuu314 wrote:
Is it just me or does EloBuff have some wildly inaccurate stats? Elobuff says my most played champ only has 10 games played, when it's something closer to like...90. It also has my winrates really off. Is it 'cause I have yet to confirm or is there some super secret formula that I'm missing. The stats on LoLking are fine so iunno. It tracks your stats by weeks.
Am I king Nunu yet?
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General Discussion: Degrees and Employment Edition
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On July 27 2012 00:02 koreasilver wrote:
General Discussion: Degrees and Employment Edition
I was one of the only people to post something about LoL on this page 
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Gamers need to get jobs too. The less time we have to spend on getting jobs because we know how the process works, the more time we have to play.
Therefore this was a relevant (and interesting) discussion.
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But I barely have time to play because I'm working full time. Right now. I'm on task, honest (zzz updating sql server service pack takes forever)
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On July 26 2012 23:15 spinesheath wrote:
There are lots of people who are pretty damn smart and sat through the education system for quite a while, but over time realized that they like doing X a lot.
There are also lots of people who aren't really all that smart/motivated/independant who buy the 'I Don't Need an Education' line and get burned. I'm a high school (and later, college) drop out who's ended up pretty damn successful, but I also didn't spend 3 years of my life padding my resume with dazzlers like 'Sick Jungle Plays' and 'Best Olaf NA'. IMO, anyone who has to ask if they should stay in school or not should stay in fucking school.
The thing about streaming video games is that it's actually really easy. Anyone who says they 'want to stream' but isn't doing it already is living in a fantasy land. In the same way that people vicarously enjoy games by watching others play, these wanna-be pros are vicariously living out a career. It's very Infinite Jest, if anyone here has read that book.
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On July 27 2012 00:10 nmbr wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2012 23:15 spinesheath wrote:
There are lots of people who are pretty damn smart and sat through the education system for quite a while, but over time realized that they like doing X a lot. There are also lots of people who aren't really all that smart/motivated/independant who buy the 'I Don't Need an Education' line and get burned. I'm a high school (and later, college) drop out who's ended up pretty damn successful, but I also didn't spend 3 years of my life padding my resume with dazzlers like 'Sick Jungle Plays' and 'Best Olaf NA'. IMO, anyone who has to ask if they should stay in school or not should stay in fucking school.
This. If you aren't willing to put 9+ solid hours of dedicated, serious effort into X every day, then you probably aren't cut out for blazing a trail outside of the school system.
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EPT
