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On July 30 2012 01:45 SnK-Arcbound wrote:
Just so everyone knows, hecarim does in fact suck. His q takes 7 seconds before it ramps up to actually do its maximum dps. His ult is 1 seconds, half the duration of mummy ult, and does half the damage of mummy ult. He has no cc outside his ult, and his e doesn't do maximum damage unless you get to ramp it up. His passive is indeed the worst passive you could ever have, movement speed to ad. He literally does nothing after he ults in a team fight. He takes damage, and dies. He is completely ignorable. Hec is bad at everything he's supposed to do. There are multiple champions that do exactly the same thing and better.
There is a specific reason why some junglers are or were good. Some are anti carries (nunu, malphite, rammus, I'll put olaf and amumu in here too). Some are cc bots (naut, alistar, skarner). Some farm really well (mundo, shyv, udyr). Some fill a very unique roll (noct as a half global assassin, jax, trundle for pillars, shaco). I didn't mention every jungler, but notice how champions like hec, and volibear aren't mentioned. This is because auto attacking and moving fast don't make you a useful champion, especially since the jungle allows you to fill a roll you would probably never be able to pull off in a lane.
I'd have to disagree. Hec fills a somewhat unique jungle role, similar to Rammus, where your job is to be a hyper-mobile roamer and dive things that look like they need to die because you can't be killed with W up.
Unfortunately, I agree that he's somewhat underwhelming. He feels as though he really needs to get ahead to get to that unkillable state, and generally "snowball or fail" junglers don't end up as good picks. If you don't get ganks off, if you get counter jungled, or if you fall behind in any other way, he's feels nigh impotent, as he can't really keep up with just jungle farm.
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i agree with snk-arcbound
all the farm in the world on hecarim doesn't actually do anything, because you have to choose between damage or tankiness. but if you're tanky and live a long time it doesn't matter because you have no CC or utility
On July 30 2012 01:50 zulu_nation8 wrote:
clearing fast and moving fast absolutely makes you a good jungle champion
eh, i agree and disagree. clearing fast means lots of farm, so if you scale well with farm then you're a good jungler. moving fast is good if it means you can gank well. unfortunately, hecarim is bad with farm and doesn't gank well, so both the movefast/farmfast qualities are wasted on him
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every half tank half damage jungler like lee, noct, shyv, has to choose between damage or farm. I've been carried hard by hecarims, he's a great jungler.
not to mention if someone can play hecarim to 2700, it's pretty solid proof hes not a bad jungler.
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On July 30 2012 02:19 zulu_nation8 wrote:
every half tank half damage jungler like lee, noct, shyv, has to choose between damage or farm. I've been carried hard by hecarims, he's a great jungler.
not to mention if someone can play hecarim to 2700, it's pretty solid proof hes not a bad jungler.
Lee and Noct can build tanky and not suffer for it though, and Shy is a completely different type of jungler.
Lee still has good damage even with no damage items and has big mobility, a shield, and his ult.
Noct's ult is one of the best in the game for punishing out of place enemies, diving, or even initiating. His fear is good and on a short cooldown, and he has really good sticking power because of dusk trail.
Shy farms faster than damn near anything in the game and can duel pretty much anyone at nearly any point in time thanks to free resistances, good base damages, and chasing power. She doesn't bring much to the table late game, admittedly, but if she plays right neither should the enemy jungler, and she'll be tanky as hell.
Hec doesn't clear as fast as Shy, and if you build him pure tank like any of them, he doesn't do much outside of his ult's fear and his knockback (which isn't nearly as good as Noct's fear). All he does is be unkillable, so if the enemy team has half a brain they'll just ignore you (since you bring no CC or debuffs like other full tanks) and kill all your teammates instead.
His early game isn't overwhelming like Shy, his ganks aren't destructive like Noct or Lee, and his late game utility isn't anywhere near half of the other junglers in the game. Sure, he snowballs hard because of his speed and burst (R-E/auto-W-Q is silly damage), but you can say that about someone like Fiddle (who is scary when snowballing as well). Doesn't make Fiddle a good jungler.
And someone played pre-change Eve into the 2k mark, doesn't mean much for the champion as much as it does about the player.
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you pretty much just named the strengths of all the champions i mentioned, I understand that's how they work in this game. I also understand hecarim isnt shyv or lee or noct, he has his own strengths. His ganks are fine and his damage is fine. I honestly don't know what you guys are talking about. 2k is not the same as 2.7.
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On July 29 2012 10:23 Navi wrote:
That guide was made before another set of wriggles nerfs to the sustain and cost efficiency. Dorans tends to be stronger as their efficiency per slot and cost is nice, as well as providing a smoother power curve into the midgame lull while you wait for your bt
And yet people tried to bite my head off in the Udyr thread for suggesting dorans instead of wriggles on a Laning Tiger Udyr. z_z
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On July 30 2012 02:19 zulu_nation8 wrote:
every half tank half damage jungler like lee, noct, shyv, has to choose between damage or farm. I've been carried hard by hecarims, he's a great jungler.
not to mention if someone can play hecarim to 2700, it's pretty solid proof hes not a bad jungler.
x_x i've been carried hard by lots of things that i still consider bad. outplaying your opponents is anecdotal evidence for the champion and speaks more to the skill differential between players. anything that you can do with hecarim, you can do better with mundo/skarner and more easily with shyvana
SG's current jungler plays hecarim all the time at 2300 and says he's a shit champ and would never play him in a tournament game or anything. there's some counter-anecdotal evidence
i've seen hec used exactly once at high level, in the curse invitational, and saint did exactly nothing with him. a couple okay ganks, a tanky build, and then absolutely zilch in teamfights. compare that to his udyr shyvana nd mundo in the past, where he'd hardcarry CLG with them. i don't pay any attention to the EU/AZN scene so i don't know if he's big in either of those locations
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What are his own strengths, then? We just had the bloody discussion about Hec v Skarner, and Hec's strengths came down to "decent initiation" and "good mobility", which are fine, but underwhelming. Aside from personal preference, why take him over anyone else who does the same thing but better and with fewer drawbacks?
Good mobility is fine when you're roaming, but hit late game and it's very decidedly meh. Unless you're split pushing, I guess. And his initiate is ok, it's like a less useful Ashe arrow that you can see coming.
2k with a shit champ (Eve) might as well be higher than that with a decent champ. Hec is decent, mediocre, meh. He brings minimal CC, no sticking power outside of items, and mediocre ganks (E is very finnicky trying to like up, R's fear isn't strong enough to be the only CC in a gank). I'd not bring him over at least a dozen different junglers.
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If you're talking about XJ9 the he/she/it/or whatever hes 33-16 with Hecarim, 5x more games on Nocturne if anything
Good jungler but needs stop using voice changer on stream
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no one knew how to play him back then.
To be philosophical, if a champion is good enough to be played to page 1, what does it mean to call him bad? Don't you really mean he's harder to learn or harder to master than more popular junglers?
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On July 30 2012 02:56 AwayFromLife wrote:
What are his own strengths, then? We just had the bloody discussion about Hec v Skarner, and Hec's strengths came down to "decent initiation" and "good mobility", which are fine, but underwhelming. Aside from personal preference, why take him over anyone else who does the same thing but better and with fewer drawbacks?
Good mobility is fine when you're roaming, but hit late game and it's very decidedly meh. Unless you're split pushing, I guess. And his initiate is ok, it's like a less useful Ashe arrow that you can see coming.
2k with a shit champ (Eve) might as well be higher than that with a decent champ. Hec is decent, mediocre, meh. He brings minimal CC, no sticking power outside of items, and mediocre ganks (E is very finnicky trying to like up, R's fear isn't strong enough to be the only CC in a gank). I'd not bring him over at least a dozen different junglers.
he clears fast, he ganks well, he escapes well, his ult is good...
Hec and skarner are different champions with different skill sets, that's why you sometimes take one and not the other.
pantheon's ult is good for ganking, but in late it's useless, hence we should never pick pantheon over champions like shen whose ult is useful all game.
your opinion will change once you see a good hecarim, those reasonings are counterfactual justification for an opinion you should never have made in the first place.
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On July 30 2012 01:53 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2012 01:45 SnK-Arcbound wrote:
Just so everyone knows, hecarim does in fact suck. His q takes 7 seconds before it ramps up to actually do its maximum dps. His ult is 1 seconds, half the duration of mummy ult, and does half the damage of mummy ult. He has no cc outside his ult, and his e doesn't do maximum damage unless you get to ramp it up. His passive is indeed the worst passive you could ever have, movement speed to ad. He literally does nothing after he ults in a team fight. He takes damage, and dies. He is completely ignorable. Hec is bad at everything he's supposed to do. There are multiple champions that do exactly the same thing and better.
There is a specific reason why some junglers are or were good. Some are anti carries (nunu, malphite, rammus, I'll put olaf and amumu in here too). Some are cc bots (naut, alistar, skarner). Some farm really well (mundo, shyv, udyr). Some fill a very unique roll (noct as a half global assassin, jax, trundle for pillars, shaco). I didn't mention every jungler, but notice how champions like hec, and volibear aren't mentioned. This is because auto attacking and moving fast don't make you a useful champion, especially since the jungle allows you to fill a roll you would probably never be able to pull off in a lane.
I'd have to disagree. Hec fills a somewhat unique jungle role, similar to Rammus, where your job is to be a hyper-mobile roamer and dive things that look like they need to die because you can't be killed with W up. Unfortunately, I agree that he's somewhat underwhelming. He feels as though he really needs to get ahead to get to that unkillable state, and generally "snowball or fail" junglers don't end up as good picks. If you don't get ganks off, if you get counter jungled, or if you fall behind in any other way, he's feels nigh impotent, as he can't really keep up with just jungle farm.
Rammus is an anti ad carry. He would dive onto the ad carry, and it would be almost impossible to get him off. Plus he'd cc the ad carry, and kill the ad carry. Hec does 1/3rd the cc, and I guarantee he does less damage, and he doesn't move as fast, and he isn't as tanky. Hec doesn't cc or suppress a carries damage in any way, hell he barely even fucks with them since his e is a 16 seconds cd. It can't be damage because hec has the 7 second ramp up time before he's doing his max damage.
This was brought on by a 1700 hec who tried to tell me hec was good, even though he couldn't even phase a vayne out of a fight without vayne killing him and then joining the fight. Hec is a fast moving effectively ccless jungler. He's like shyv, except not as good (and I think shyv isn't that good anyways).
edit: even worse was I let him jungle over me -_- .
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also this comparing champion skill to one another is hilarious reasoning,
if you think hec ult or E or whatever is a worse version of ashe ult, you're welcome to play ashe as a jungler to make full use of her tremendous initiate skillset.
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Hecarim ganks are awesome. Can usually gank right through a ward with e, something not too many junglers can do. He just doesn't really do anything in a team fight. He ults and then... Well, hes just kinda there. Yeah w is great to stay alive in the middle of a team, but he doesn't do damage if you build him tanky. He really is an ignorable champion unless fed imo.
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The only problem with Hecarim is how people compare him to other junglers. Is he godlike? No, but very few champs are. Hecarim is 100% completely viable in the jungle and for the life of me I can not figure out why people have spent so many pages lecturing about him in this and last month's general thread.
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My understanding about Hecarim is that his teamfight is pretty poor beside his ultimate, so he is under a lot of pressure to do well in the earlier stages of the game. Unfortunately he isn't as good as Lee Sin when it comes to ganks.
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On July 30 2012 02:56 MooMooMugi wrote:
If you're talking about XJ9 the he/she/it/or whatever hes 33-16 with Hecarim, 5x more games on Nocturne if anything
Good jungler but needs stop using voice changer on stream
I watched his stream his last night and you honestly don't want to hear his real voice. Poor kid sounds like the most nasally 16 year old.
@hecarim. I dunno he seems like a hit or miss hero. I wouldn't say he's terrible though.
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On July 30 2012 03:40 I_Love_Bacon wrote:
The only problem with Hecarim is how people compare him to other junglers. Is he godlike? No, but very few champs are. Hecarim is 100% completely viable in the jungle and for the life of me I can not figure out why people have spent so many pages lecturing about him in this and last month's general thread.
That's the problem. He can jungle, and he can even do it pretty well. But when you have champions who are on another level in terms of jungling, you're going to pick the other champs.
What I feel is Hec's biggest problem is that he doens't excel at anything. His ganks are okay, his clears are okay, his damage is okay... everything is just either average or a bit above average. I'm sure there's a team comp for him, needing an all-around pick, but when you can go Naut for great ganks or Mundo for fast clears, it becomes hard to pick him.
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Hec isn't bad, I don't think anyone here is saying that. But I just don't think he's necessarily "great". I can see him doing great in solo queue where communication is bad, people push too hard, and no one wards. He's even viable in team play given the right comp and what not. But I would never really say he's one of the top junglers. I play him a lot in normals because jumping on people's face and being unkillable is fun, but I'd rather not choose him in ranked when I could pick any number of other champs in my play pool and do better and bring more.
Perhaps just my opinion, but I don't think his innate survival and a mediocre to good ult is reason to pick him over Shy/Skar/Naut/Amumu. I agree that you can't compare skills to one another, but you sure as heck can compare strengths of a kit between two champs. He's got good clear, decent CC, and survival, all of which is nice for you personally as the jungler but not great for the team.
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the #1 reason players in solo queue and in competitive play pick a certain champion is that the player is good with picked champion
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EPT
