EPTIn my experience Malph abuses his passive and base damage to be more sturdy than Jax from level 1, and pushes a little to build a bigger creep wave, to Jax can't face him straight up in aa exchanges, and then harasses from here.
[Patch 1.0.0.142: Jayce] General Discussion - Page 72
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
In my experience Malph abuses his passive and base damage to be more sturdy than Jax from level 1, and pushes a little to build a bigger creep wave, to Jax can't face him straight up in aa exchanges, and then harasses from here. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
I can't elaborate on it because laning is a very complicated thing and I haven't played it enough to give you a good breakdown of how it works and who's stronger when. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
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zer0das
United States8519 Posts
On July 12 2012 18:44 Sufficiency wrote: Perhaps. But I always feel that as Karthus it's easier and safer to just stay in lane. Then again, it might be just me as I tend to play fairly passive in mid while I sit back and farm unless I am playing some specific champion who has very strong roam (something like Ahri, LeBlanc, and Lux come to mind). I have always found ganking side lanes pretty easy as Karthus... hit a wall of pain and if your teammates are close enough, almost a guranteed kill if the enemies don't have flash up. If their mid didn't follow you, there's fairly minimal risk too. You can sit back and play passive, but if their AP backs, no reason to not clear the wave and gank a side lane. | ||
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
On July 12 2012 23:05 Ryuu314 wrote: Don't get me wrong, I love Sejuani. I just find that her level 1-2 W does absolutely no damage whatsoever. Clearing wolves->blue->wolves->wraiths is just so goddam slow. By the time you finish blue the other jungler has plenty of time to go into your jungle, jack wraiths and red and take a dump on your bot lane if it's like Lee Sin or smth. Once Sej gets like level 4~5 she can clear pretty darn well, but she's just so vulnerable early on I don't think it's worth it. That said, if she gets rolling her ganks and teamfight is just ridiculous. Practically a guaranteed kill if your ulti is up and you can easily burn summoners without it too. If the enemy jungler can literally take two buffs and a small camp in the time it takes you to kill one buff the problem isn't Sejuani, it's you and your team. I personally don't like Sejuani as a jungler, but her speed isn't her weak point. | ||
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VirgilSC2
United States6151 Posts
To put it in perspective, I've gotten pretty good at League of Legends, but I'm still terrified of Ranked play, so I play only Normals usually. Rough statistic, I win my lane probably about 85% of the games I play. Doesn't matter if I get counterpicked, doesn't really matter if I get camped by jungler. I picked Jax in a game of Normal Draft, I think I was like 3rd pick. I got counterpicked by Malphite. The guy had a Runepage/Mastery set specifically for getting a pair of Doran's Rings and literally spamming his Q on me. I got bullied out of lane. HARD. I have literally never felt so helpless in almost 800 games of League of Legends. It was horrible. I honestly haven't picked Jax since. | ||
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Dgiese
United States2687 Posts
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Miiike
United States141 Posts
On July 12 2012 21:23 Shadowpostin wrote: Hm,that Ryze spell cancel trick to stack your tear is quite neat I never actually thought of that. What's this "trick"? I can't see anything about it in recent posts.. | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On July 13 2012 00:14 Seuss wrote: If the enemy jungler can literally take two buffs and a small camp in the time it takes you to kill one buff the problem isn't Sejuani, it's you and your team. I personally don't like Sejuani as a jungler, but her speed isn't her weak point. No it's most definitely Sejuani. Speed is, imo, her ONLY weak point. Her level 1 W does 60+5% of max health, so it'll come out to about 70~100 damage total. That's basically 1.5~2 extra autoattacks, which is practically nothing. (For reference, Shyvana's level 1 W does 175 damage total and Mundo's does 35 damage a second, which is almost twice as much dps as Sej's). As Sejuani you basically have to kill blue buff with nothing but autoattacks and w/e leash you get from your team. And while you're taking blue, your team can't afford to sit in your jungle keeping watch over your red. With a strong early game counterjungler like Lee Sin it's incredibly easy for him to jack your red after taking his blue. Sure you can just argue that your team needs to leash it really well, but what's stopping the enemy team from leashing as well as your team? If you don't think Sej's weak point is her speed then what is it? Lack of sustain isn't a problem in new jungle. Her ganks are monstrous as is her teamfight. Sejuani's mid-late game damage isn't anything to scoff at either since her W scales really well in the later levels; getting wit's and/or triforce lets her autoattacks hit for a decent amount as well. | ||
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nmbr
United States79 Posts
On the topic of junglers, whats the consensus on the ole' Cho'Gath? I've been avoiding the jungle role because of how boring my Mundo/Amumu games have been, and Alistar is always banned or picked before I get a chance. Is the pick dependant entirely on how well you land your Qs? I'd like to have more fun in the jungle without buying more champs if possible. | ||
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
On July 13 2012 00:28 nmbr wrote: I too dodged a jungle Teemo yesterday. On the topic of junglers, whats the consensus on the ole' Cho'Gath? I've been avoiding the jungle role because of how boring my Mundo/Amumu games have been (AP Amu is fun but never what my team needs - I think I just don't know how to play tanky champs). Is the pick dependant entirely on how well you land your Qs? AP Amumu is what every team needs. | ||
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Feartheguru
Canada1334 Posts
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r.Evo
Germany14080 Posts
On July 12 2012 23:38 NB wrote: So news going around the block: WCG pick up DotA2 for the first time in history, Dota2 replacing LoL since WCG and Riot didnt come to an agreement. Russian DotA2 WCG qual already dated etc.... Need some legit news source to confirm all these. No LoL in the WCG? Edit: On July 13 2012 00:16 NB wrote: the first news source was a random chinese article but it was pretty sketchy... then getfrags post their 'confirmation' on some sort of russian qualifier... | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22065 Posts
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TheLink
Australia2725 Posts
~2 dozen jungle cho games. Won maybe three of them, 24% overall win-rate on cho (who I mained for ages after reading ZERGRUSSIAN's guide). And the Ryze trick is Q'ing the minion as your last hit is about to hit. If you time it right the minion dies during animation, you aren't charged any mana/cooldown but tear still ticks up. Dunno how difficult it is but Dan Dinh didn't seem to have any trouble with it. | ||
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Sermokala
United States14081 Posts
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
On July 13 2012 00:39 Feartheguru wrote: The team that wins 2/3 or 3/3 lanes win like 80% of games. I think that's pretty hard to deny so win lane win game is a pretty good mentality to have. "Don't lose lanes, coordinate teamfights" works quite well in ranked teams tho, when you know you're putting more thought than your opponents into your picks and are more confident in your synergy.  To give more examples of what I meant, it's kinda like "fuck their Soraka+Sivir+top and jungler with shields/heals, I can counterpick their mid with Karthus" or "fuck their Trist+Janna botlane, my Kennen fear no knockbacks if I can counterpick their top". | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
That being said, I dont particularly like Dota or LoL for WCG- team games just dont work well when they are separated by country. It sets the quality of games back a TON. | ||
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
On July 13 2012 00:25 Ryuu314 wrote: No it's most definitely Sejuani. Speed is, imo, her ONLY weak point. Her level 1 W does 60+5% of max health, so it'll come out to about 70~90 damage total. That's basically 1.5~2 extra autoattacks, which is practically nothing. (For reference, Shyvana's level 1 W does 175 damage total and Mundo's does 35 damage a second, which is over twice as much dps as Sej's). As Sejuani you basically have to kill blue buff with nothing but autoattacks and w/e leash you get from your team. And while you're taking blue, your team can't afford to sit in your jungle keeping watch over your red. With a strong early game counterjungler like Lee Sin it's incredibly easy for him to jack your red after taking his blue. Sure you can just argue that your team needs to leash it really well, but what's stopping the enemy team from leashing as well as your team? If you don't think Sej's weak point is her speed then what is it? Lack of sustain isn't a problem in new jungle. Her ganks are monstrous as is her teamfight. Sejuani's mid-late game damage isn't anything to scoff at either since her W scales really well in the later levels; getting wit's and/or triforce lets her autoattacks hit for a decent amount as well. Sejuani's W does 130 damage to its principal target due to its health scaling and interaction with her passive. Ultimately the difference between Sejuani's W and Shyvana's W at rank 1 isn't very large against a single target, Shyvana's W has a longer cooldown which brings the two closer into parity. The reason why Lee Sin can jack your Red has nothing to do with Sejuani's speed and everything to do with your route. You're clearing Wolves -> Blue -> Wraiths -> Wolves -> Red. This is a sound route for leveling quickly and efficiently, but it leaves your Red wide open for being stolen. If you do not check Red before and after clearing Wraiths it is easy for the vast majority of junglers to steal it. Sejuani's weaknesses are her lack of sustain, lack of defensive steroids, and lack of early hard-cc.
To clarify Sejuani is not fast on her first clear, but her speed is average, not poor. I don't count that as a weakness, as many competitive junglers clear at similar speeds. However, the summation of all those attributes is why I don't like jungling Sejuani. I find having a strong early-game is critical for most junglers, but I can understand why she appeals to Not Moonbear. On July 13 2012 00:28 nmbr wrote: I too dodged a jungle Teemo yesterday. On the topic of junglers, whats the consensus on the ole' Cho'Gath? I've been avoiding the jungle role because of how boring my Mundo/Amumu games have been, and Alistar is always banned or picked before I get a chance. Is the pick dependant entirely on how well you land your Qs? I'd like to have more fun in the jungle without buying more champs if possible. He'd be a lot better if the jungle was still about farming forever and then controlling the mid-game. Jungle Cho'gath can clear stupidly fast if you max E, and rushing Wit's End on him was hilarious. However, in the current jungle he's not particularly competitive unless you're an ace with Ruptures. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On July 13 2012 00:25 Ryuu314 wrote: No it's most definitely Sejuani. Speed is, imo, her ONLY weak point. Her level 1 W does 60+5% of max health, so it'll come out to about 70~100 damage total. That's basically 1.5~2 extra autoattacks, which is practically nothing. (For reference, Shyvana's level 1 W does 175 damage total and Mundo's does 35 damage a second, which is almost twice as much dps as Sej's). As Sejuani you basically have to kill blue buff with nothing but autoattacks and w/e leash you get from your team. And while you're taking blue, your team can't afford to sit in your jungle keeping watch over your red. With a strong early game counterjungler like Lee Sin it's incredibly easy for him to jack your red after taking his blue. Sure you can just argue that your team needs to leash it really well, but what's stopping the enemy team from leashing as well as your team? If you don't think Sej's weak point is her speed then what is it? Lack of sustain isn't a problem in new jungle. Her ganks are monstrous as is her teamfight. Sejuani's mid-late game damage isn't anything to scoff at either since her W scales really well in the later levels; getting wit's and/or triforce lets her autoattacks hit for a decent amount as well. Speed is Sejuani's problem, but you're arguing about it from the wrong time point. Practically speaking, speed doesn't come into play on your first buff camp. In competitive games, every jungler should be getting enough help on their first buff that the only thing they have to do is smite it when the laners leave. It makes zero difference how fast they are. Where Sejuani loses a lot of time is on her small camps. W doesn't do enough damage at the lower ranks to clear Wraiths or Wolves in 1 cast, and there's a 2-3 second gap in uptime between when W falls off and when it comes off CD again and you're just autoattacking the creeps individually to finish them off (whereas Shyv/Mundo/Udyr/etc. get enough uptime on their AoEs for the AoEs to just clear the small creeps)--this means that you're taking 4-5 seconds longer to clear Wolves/Wraiths than pretty much every other jungler. Over many camps, this adds up VERY quickly. By the time you've rounded back to Wraiths/Wolves a second time, you're potentially 20-30 seconds behind the enemy jungler. | ||
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