|
On July 10 2012 21:09 Shadowpostin wrote:
Here are some of my thoughts on this rune page discussion.
There are relatively a lot of champions that people say need specific rune pages,but you can honestly get 5 rune pages that will cover pretty much almost every champion in the game.
For instance I see a lot of people use a separate rune page for maokai(ap quints and all that jazz),but you can really get away with a generic udyr(phoenix) rune page on maokai and it works just as well(yes you can do a wraith start without ap quints).
I think that if you get 4-5 rune pages and get the following rune setup you are pretty set.
A jungle ms/as page (MS quints,AS reds,armor yellow and mr per lvl blue),
ad page(ad quints reds,armor yellow,mr per lvl blue)
ap mid page(personally I prefer MS quints mostly because of the champs I play,mpen reds,ap per lvl blue)
armor page(armor quints and yellows,ad red,mr per lvl blue)
Fifth page is just to fill that need for a niche page(mr ap mid,mr top lane,support or something like that)
More than this is a waste of money/IP points I think.
Wraith start is just a dumb idea why not just do wolves anyway when you get help and don't waste any time getting to blue, but yeah, always use udyr page on maokai because MS is great for landing W's anyway.
Not only is wraith start awkward it's really easy to steal either your blue or pop your saplings or even steal your wraiths because you're split. (anivia q over wraiths well timed kills big wraith just as saplings hit it and nothing you can do about it.)
|
I don't like it either it just seems to me that every time people mention that they need a separate rune page for maokai,the argument is that it enables them to do a wraith start when that is not true at all,you can do a wraith start with or without ap runes it makes no difference.Udyr rune page is the way to go on mao.
|
I always did wraith start because I get to blue without wasting any time and by the time i continue my course to wraiths they're already respawned
but if you go for the level 2 gank I suppose wolves make more sense.
|
AP pages:
MPen/mp5/scaling AP/flat AP
MPen/mp5/scaling AP/MS (could has well go with flat AP blues here I believe)
MPen/mp5/flat MR/flat AP
MPen/mp5/flat MR/MS (mostly used on stuff like Ryze, Swain)
MPen/flat armor/scaling AP/MS (could go with flat AP here too)
AD pages:
AD/flat armor/flat MR/MS
AD/flat armor/scaling MR/MS
AD/flat armor/scaling MR/AD
ArPen/flat armor/scaling MR/MS
ArPen/flat armor/scaling MR/AD
AS pages:
AS/flat armor/scaling MR/MS
AS/flat armor/scaling MR/flat armor
AS/flat armor/flat MR/flat MR
"tanky magic":
MPen/flat armor/scaling MR/MS (used for various stuff, almost never mages)
support:
I usually use either the AD/AD page for harass, or "tanky magic" page for stuff like Alistar/Leona/Sona. I may go the AD page with flat MR against say Corki.
jungle:
flat armor/flat armor/scaling MR/flat armor (used by Seuss for Naut, tried, loved, I sometimes use it for Mummy too, basically champs relying on a good leash)
special:
AD/mp5/flat MR/1 AD 2 flat MR ("Pantheon mid", I almost never used it, same with a MPen/mp5/flat MR/flat MR page for Galio, I could switch it I guess).
Stuff I miss the most right now would be AD marks + flat resists quints pages, since I don't always want to run AS on some champs (Jax, Olaf, etc. I did those pages when Irelia was my main).
|
The difference with dedicated rune pages for maokai isn't really the wraith start, you can do it with either rune set. With 20+ AP, you can throw down 3 saplings and kill all the small wraiths the second they spawn and then throw a 4th at ~1:42 and kill the big one over the wall. It allows you to go wraiths -> blue with a regrowth pendant without getting there extremely late. Having the AP also makes your first few clears on wraiths/wolves a few autoattacks faster. If you have time, try doing both rune sets. The extra AP early game helps a huge amount, especially since saplings are 1.0 scaling.
The reasons you open wraiths:
You hit level 4 faster than if you opened wolves. It's 10-15s faster than the wolf opening to level 4 and by opening wraiths with a regrowth, you can grab a philo+boots about 10s after you base after your first full clear. Yes it is more vulnerable to counterjungling/stealing but it gets maokai going in the jungle faster.
|
I could be completely wrong, but I'm pretty sure the AP runepage for maokai was more of a holdover from before the jungle remake. Back then, Maokai absolutely needed the AP from teh runes in order to stack and one shot the small wraiths, then auto the big wraith once to clear it. Now I'm pretty sure it's not necessary.
|
On July 10 2012 22:28 Ryuu314 wrote:
I could be completely wrong, but I'm pretty sure the AP runepage for maokai was more of a holdover from before the jungle remake. Back then, Maokai absolutely needed the AP from teh runes in order to stack and one shot the small wraiths, then auto the big wraith once to clear it. Now I'm pretty sure it's not necessary.
you are wrong, the wraith->blue start with maokai started long after the jungle remake
|
On July 10 2012 18:34 Morfildur wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 18:31 Shikyo wrote:
I kind of think that more heal = easier lane but.. Well, on the other hand usually more heal = less damage. Less damage = easier lane for the opponent. Can anyone explain why Riot decided to allow people to set masteries in the champ select but not the runes? I have 10 rune pages but still not enough for all the situations :-/ Oh, wait, rune pages cost money :-/
I don't play Nunu top (been doing Jayce up there for the time being), but I think I might max Q, especially against a sustain-less opponent. If you manage your passive right, you should be able to hit Consume to heal (when needed) and Snowball to harass (pretty much on cooldown), and have very little mana problems. Even Rank 1 of Snowball is decent harass, especially once you get some AP from RoA or something because of the sick scaling. Against someone with little sustain, even if they have heavy poke, you can whittle them down while being nearly full health at all times, and Snowball + Blood Boil (even at low ranks of each) makes you very safe from ganks.
I don't know. This is obviously just theorycrafting, so I'll probably play it a bit when I get off work.
Build wise on him, I got really fed by ganks when I jungled him, so I went tanky AP RoA/Abyssal/Glacial (surrendered before I could get FH). It felt pretty good, the AP allowed for some nice snipes with Snowball and ult while I could eat damage nbd with the health, resists, and a 0/21/9 mastery tree. I think straight tank or supporty tank would have been fine, though, depending on damage from your team. Maybe Boots-Gp10-Aegis-Randuin-Shureliya-GA? I like RoA, but it's so expensive unless you get fed. Perhaps with heavy counter jungling it's possible.
|
On July 10 2012 22:32 gtrsrs wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 22:28 Ryuu314 wrote:
I could be completely wrong, but I'm pretty sure the AP runepage for maokai was more of a holdover from before the jungle remake. Back then, Maokai absolutely needed the AP from teh runes in order to stack and one shot the small wraiths, then auto the big wraith once to clear it. Now I'm pretty sure it's not necessary. you are wrong, the wraith->blue start with maokai started long after the jungle remake
No it didn't.People were doing it long before the jungle remake,it's just that no one played him as jungler to much.
I remember I used to do that wraith start when I was lvlin to 30 and I was supporting people with maokai lol,but only thing is I would steal the enemy wraiths if I spawned red side haha.
|
On July 10 2012 22:32 gtrsrs wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 22:28 Ryuu314 wrote:
I could be completely wrong, but I'm pretty sure the AP runepage for maokai was more of a holdover from before the jungle remake. Back then, Maokai absolutely needed the AP from teh runes in order to stack and one shot the small wraiths, then auto the big wraith once to clear it. Now I'm pretty sure it's not necessary. you are wrong, the wraith->blue start with maokai started long after the jungle remake
alright just checked. jungle remake was volibear patch, which was on November 29, 2011. Maokai's wraith camps start was first thought up and put into a guide by doo0ooooooom on solomid.net on November 7, 2011 (check out changelog at very bottom). Now, TOO popularized Maokai jungle following MLG. I don't remember if that particular MLG was played with or without jungle remake. Based on what he says in the guide, I'm inclined to believe that MLG was without jungle remake. Hence, the AP rune page for Maokai was used mostly for the old jungle. Big wraith is now killed by 3 stacked saplings and 1 thrown sapling regardless of w/e runes you run.
|
Now that there's 100 champs I really do think some of them should be phased out from ranked, especially if they aren't going to fix them (stealthies I'm looking at you *coughEvecough*). It's fun to play stuff that people don't play and find out it's strong, but eventually enough is enough. I can't think of a system to keep the number of champions in check, but eventually it gets to be impossible to have a competitive format for a game that's moving away from fair play. I mean, I know they cater to the masses which is the smart business decision, without entirely ignoring their pro scene in terms of balancing champions, but there is a number of champions at which it gets quite ridiculous. Should you have to account for something like 250 champions in a competitive scene? I hope that isn't true. I guess I have no solution for the problem that wouldn't be seen as overly dramatic, but I worry what will happen as the rift between appealing to casuals and taking care of pros becomes too large.
|
On July 10 2012 23:25 Zdrastochye wrote:
Now that there's 100 champs I really do think some of them should be phased out from ranked, especially if they aren't going to fix them (stealthies I'm looking at you *coughEvecough*). It's fun to play stuff that people don't play and find out it's strong, but eventually enough is enough. I can't think of a system to keep the number of champions in check, but eventually it gets to be impossible to have a competitive format for a game that's moving away from fair play. I mean, I know they cater to the masses which is the smart business decision, without entirely ignoring their pro scene in terms of balancing champions, but there is a number of champions at which it gets quite ridiculous. Should you have to account for something like 250 champions in a competitive scene? I hope that isn't true. I guess I have no solution for the problem that wouldn't be seen as overly dramatic, but I worry what will happen as the rift between appealing to casuals and taking care of pros becomes too large.
well considerin how DotA still has more heroes than LoL has champions and the DotA scene is still going very strong and it's a pretty darn well balanced game, I don't think we have to worry about the "too many champions" problem yet, balance-wise anyways. I will say that I'm a little worried that Riot may be recycling some concepts because they're scared of creating and releasin "anti-fun" mechanics tho.
Riot has stated numerous times that they will slow down (mebbe eventually stop?) making champions as the pool increases. They've already begun to slow champion releases a little bit (it's no longer every two weeks like clockwork; we get 3 week "breaks" now and then).
|
Did EuW just die? Had a game which was done, nexus dies game crashes and not it's saying that I left a game and then it can't connect.
|
No matter how good you are at balancing, there's still going to be champions that fall into (generally) one of four categories: OP, Good, UP, or Shit.
Shit champs don't matter, they're in the pool, but who cares? Aside from trolling, no one is going to pick champions that are inherently bad. However, I suppose we could get to a point where there are no Shit champs, but I find it highly unlikely. There will always be at least a couple that are severely, absurdly outclassed in every way possible for one reason or another.
UP champs will be the ones that have the potential to be Good, but are held back by one thing or another. These generally will fluctuate with buffs, items, meta, etc. Brand, I would say, is UP right now, as one of the more held back AP mids. These generally don't matter in the pool, because you won't ever see them outside of one person stubbornly playing them (Scarra on Kat, for example).
OP champs, in a way, don't matter for Draft play. Someone who is truly OP for whatever reason (Morg for several reasons, Shen for his ult) will always, always be banned. They don't matter to the pool, because they're removed immediately nearly every time.
Good Champs are the ones that really matter from a meta perspective. The ones that are viable and competitive, can be counter picked or can counter pick, or can be played safely. The only time they see bans is specific counter picks or banning out a certain players.
What does this seemingly asinine post mean when it comes to ranked? That it really will never matter how many champs are in the total pool. Even if there are 250 champs in the future, you'll knock out a handful immediately that are Shit picks, and more that are UP and really unplayed until the meta changes. OP ones will always be banned out, so even with 250 champs, that suddenly gets whittled down to maybe 150 after all is said and done, and once you take team comps and counter picking into account, you really only have to "worry" about a double handful.
That was a ramble, sorry I'm tired. The point I was trying to make is that people need to stop worrying about how many champs there are in the game. At any given time, as long as you pay attention to nerfs/buffs/meta, you only really need to be aware of around half of them. I doubt that there will ever be a time where every champ is viable enough that you need all of them and know the ins and outs of playing as/with/against all of them.
This post makes no sense.
|
United States47024 Posts
You're assuming there will always be enough bans for all the "OP" champs, which 1) isn't true, and 2) shouldn't be true.
Also, pulling an analogy to MTG--the more champions there are in the game, the more potentially degenerate interactions exist between them. Balance becomes exponentially harder with an increasing number of champions because this isn't a game of individual champions, but rather teams.
|
On July 10 2012 23:41 Requizen wrote:
No matter how good you are at balancing, there's still going to be champions that fall into (generally) one of four categories: OP, Good, UP, or Shit.
Shit champs don't matter, they're in the pool, but who cares? Aside from trolling, no one is going to pick champions that are inherently bad. However, I suppose we could get to a point where there are no Shit champs, but I find it highly unlikely. There will always be at least a couple that are severely, absurdly outclassed in every way possible for one reason or another.
UP champs will be the ones that have the potential to be Good, but are held back by one thing or another. These generally will fluctuate with buffs, items, meta, etc. Brand, I would say, is UP right now, as one of the more held back AP mids. These generally don't matter in the pool, because you won't ever see them outside of one person stubbornly playing them (Scarra on Kat, for example).
OP champs, in a way, don't matter for Draft play. Someone who is truly OP for whatever reason (Morg for several reasons, Shen for his ult) will always, always be banned. They don't matter to the pool, because they're removed immediately nearly every time.
Good Champs are the ones that really matter from a meta perspective. The ones that are viable and competitive, can be counter picked or can counter pick, or can be played safely. The only time they see bans is specific counter picks or banning out a certain players.
What does this seemingly asinine post mean when it comes to ranked? That it really will never matter how many champs are in the total pool. Even if there are 250 champs in the future, you'll knock out a handful immediately that are Shit picks, and more that are UP and really unplayed until the meta changes. OP ones will always be banned out, so even with 250 champs, that suddenly gets whittled down to maybe 150 after all is said and done, and once you take team comps and counter picking into account, you really only have to "worry" about a double handful.
That was a ramble, sorry I'm tired. The point I was trying to make is that people need to stop worrying about how many champs there are in the game. At any given time, as long as you pay attention to nerfs/buffs/meta, you only really need to be aware of around half of them. I doubt that there will ever be a time where every champ is viable enough that you need all of them and know the ins and outs of playing as/with/against all of them.
This post makes no sense.
All I'm saying is make it so shit champions can't be picked, since they're only there for troll purposes.
|
On July 10 2012 23:54 Zdrastochye wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 23:41 Requizen wrote:
No matter how good you are at balancing, there's still going to be champions that fall into (generally) one of four categories: OP, Good, UP, or Shit.
Shit champs don't matter, they're in the pool, but who cares? Aside from trolling, no one is going to pick champions that are inherently bad. However, I suppose we could get to a point where there are no Shit champs, but I find it highly unlikely. There will always be at least a couple that are severely, absurdly outclassed in every way possible for one reason or another.
UP champs will be the ones that have the potential to be Good, but are held back by one thing or another. These generally will fluctuate with buffs, items, meta, etc. Brand, I would say, is UP right now, as one of the more held back AP mids. These generally don't matter in the pool, because you won't ever see them outside of one person stubbornly playing them (Scarra on Kat, for example).
OP champs, in a way, don't matter for Draft play. Someone who is truly OP for whatever reason (Morg for several reasons, Shen for his ult) will always, always be banned. They don't matter to the pool, because they're removed immediately nearly every time.
Good Champs are the ones that really matter from a meta perspective. The ones that are viable and competitive, can be counter picked or can counter pick, or can be played safely. The only time they see bans is specific counter picks or banning out a certain players.
What does this seemingly asinine post mean when it comes to ranked? That it really will never matter how many champs are in the total pool. Even if there are 250 champs in the future, you'll knock out a handful immediately that are Shit picks, and more that are UP and really unplayed until the meta changes. OP ones will always be banned out, so even with 250 champs, that suddenly gets whittled down to maybe 150 after all is said and done, and once you take team comps and counter picking into account, you really only have to "worry" about a double handful.
That was a ramble, sorry I'm tired. The point I was trying to make is that people need to stop worrying about how many champs there are in the game. At any given time, as long as you pay attention to nerfs/buffs/meta, you only really need to be aware of around half of them. I doubt that there will ever be a time where every champ is viable enough that you need all of them and know the ins and outs of playing as/with/against all of them.
This post makes no sense. All I'm saying is make it so shit champions can't be picked, since they're only there for troll purposes.
Which, at a competitive level, doesn't matter in the slightest.
I, for one, would be real pissed if they started phasing out champs.
|
On July 10 2012 23:54 Zdrastochye wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 23:41 Requizen wrote:
No matter how good you are at balancing, there's still going to be champions that fall into (generally) one of four categories: OP, Good, UP, or Shit.
Shit champs don't matter, they're in the pool, but who cares? Aside from trolling, no one is going to pick champions that are inherently bad. However, I suppose we could get to a point where there are no Shit champs, but I find it highly unlikely. There will always be at least a couple that are severely, absurdly outclassed in every way possible for one reason or another.
UP champs will be the ones that have the potential to be Good, but are held back by one thing or another. These generally will fluctuate with buffs, items, meta, etc. Brand, I would say, is UP right now, as one of the more held back AP mids. These generally don't matter in the pool, because you won't ever see them outside of one person stubbornly playing them (Scarra on Kat, for example).
OP champs, in a way, don't matter for Draft play. Someone who is truly OP for whatever reason (Morg for several reasons, Shen for his ult) will always, always be banned. They don't matter to the pool, because they're removed immediately nearly every time.
Good Champs are the ones that really matter from a meta perspective. The ones that are viable and competitive, can be counter picked or can counter pick, or can be played safely. The only time they see bans is specific counter picks or banning out a certain players.
What does this seemingly asinine post mean when it comes to ranked? That it really will never matter how many champs are in the total pool. Even if there are 250 champs in the future, you'll knock out a handful immediately that are Shit picks, and more that are UP and really unplayed until the meta changes. OP ones will always be banned out, so even with 250 champs, that suddenly gets whittled down to maybe 150 after all is said and done, and once you take team comps and counter picking into account, you really only have to "worry" about a double handful.
That was a ramble, sorry I'm tired. The point I was trying to make is that people need to stop worrying about how many champs there are in the game. At any given time, as long as you pay attention to nerfs/buffs/meta, you only really need to be aware of around half of them. I doubt that there will ever be a time where every champ is viable enough that you need all of them and know the ins and outs of playing as/with/against all of them.
This post makes no sense. All I'm saying is make it so shit champions can't be picked, since they're only there for troll purposes.
That's really dumb. If you can't ever pick shit champions, then there's no way to tell if they're truly shit or not. Tons of champions have become fotm or viable after being thought to be shit tier for a long time.
Rather than making them unpickable, Riot should just aim to balance/tweak them so they're not shit tier.
|
Korea (South)11232 Posts
why do I need to patch every time I start the game? Was the third time today.... first one was the jayce update but the others two no idea
|
On July 10 2012 23:59 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 23:54 Zdrastochye wrote:On July 10 2012 23:41 Requizen wrote:
No matter how good you are at balancing, there's still going to be champions that fall into (generally) one of four categories: OP, Good, UP, or Shit.
Shit champs don't matter, they're in the pool, but who cares? Aside from trolling, no one is going to pick champions that are inherently bad. However, I suppose we could get to a point where there are no Shit champs, but I find it highly unlikely. There will always be at least a couple that are severely, absurdly outclassed in every way possible for one reason or another.
UP champs will be the ones that have the potential to be Good, but are held back by one thing or another. These generally will fluctuate with buffs, items, meta, etc. Brand, I would say, is UP right now, as one of the more held back AP mids. These generally don't matter in the pool, because you won't ever see them outside of one person stubbornly playing them (Scarra on Kat, for example).
OP champs, in a way, don't matter for Draft play. Someone who is truly OP for whatever reason (Morg for several reasons, Shen for his ult) will always, always be banned. They don't matter to the pool, because they're removed immediately nearly every time.
Good Champs are the ones that really matter from a meta perspective. The ones that are viable and competitive, can be counter picked or can counter pick, or can be played safely. The only time they see bans is specific counter picks or banning out a certain players.
What does this seemingly asinine post mean when it comes to ranked? That it really will never matter how many champs are in the total pool. Even if there are 250 champs in the future, you'll knock out a handful immediately that are Shit picks, and more that are UP and really unplayed until the meta changes. OP ones will always be banned out, so even with 250 champs, that suddenly gets whittled down to maybe 150 after all is said and done, and once you take team comps and counter picking into account, you really only have to "worry" about a double handful.
That was a ramble, sorry I'm tired. The point I was trying to make is that people need to stop worrying about how many champs there are in the game. At any given time, as long as you pay attention to nerfs/buffs/meta, you only really need to be aware of around half of them. I doubt that there will ever be a time where every champ is viable enough that you need all of them and know the ins and outs of playing as/with/against all of them.
This post makes no sense. All I'm saying is make it so shit champions can't be picked, since they're only there for troll purposes. That's really dumb. If you can't ever pick shit champions, then there's no way to tell if they're truly shit or not. Tons of champions have become fotm or viable after being thought to be shit tier for a long time. Rather than making them unpickable, Riot should just aim to balance/tweak them so they're not shit tier.
Current Eve.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
