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On June 15 2012 12:33 BlackPaladin wrote:
Don't worry, next season riot will throw something more ridiculous, like, 5 million dollars at the players for esports. l0l
Actually, probably 5 million Euros. Since the dollar is gonna be worth shit in a year.
*ahem*
I heard a while back that dota 2 had a 1 million prize pool for 1st place in some tournament did that ever actually go through?
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On June 15 2012 05:14 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2012 05:12 Dark_Chill wrote:
I don't get the comparison to Dota's stronger abilities for heroes. If all the abilities are stronger, then don't they become not strong in the context of the game?
Also, can someone explain Riot's reasoning to make a skin worth the same amount as a champion? Balance through everyone being OP isnt a health form of balance.The reason Dotas abilities are stronger is because the game works different and it works in those settings.
Worked for BW...
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On June 15 2012 12:40 SoulSever wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2012 05:14 Gorsameth wrote:On June 15 2012 05:12 Dark_Chill wrote:
I don't get the comparison to Dota's stronger abilities for heroes. If all the abilities are stronger, then don't they become not strong in the context of the game?
Also, can someone explain Riot's reasoning to make a skin worth the same amount as a champion? Balance through everyone being OP isnt a health form of balance.The reason Dotas abilities are stronger is because the game works different and it works in those settings. Worked for BW...
OP things in Brood War requires mad skills, not pressing R.
There are too many walking ults in DotA for me to enjoy, that's for sure. And waaaaaaaay too much CC. I don't see the fun in being silenced 10s, then stunned 2, then stunned 3, then kicked in the air.
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On June 15 2012 12:40 SoulSever wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2012 05:14 Gorsameth wrote:On June 15 2012 05:12 Dark_Chill wrote:
I don't get the comparison to Dota's stronger abilities for heroes. If all the abilities are stronger, then don't they become not strong in the context of the game?
Also, can someone explain Riot's reasoning to make a skin worth the same amount as a champion? Balance through everyone being OP isnt a health form of balance.The reason Dotas abilities are stronger is because the game works different and it works in those settings. Worked for BW...
Not at the lower levels. And besides that BW isn't adding new units every week.
Some game designer was commenting on the way LoL and DoTA add balance, and how the only sustainable method was to make all the champions fun sized. An analogy could be drawn to reducing weapons rather than creating an unstable nuclear arms race.
Can't seem to upload to imgur. Relevant.
![[image loading]](http://www.nerfnow.com/comic/image/737)
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On June 15 2012 12:37 valheru wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2012 12:33 BlackPaladin wrote:
Don't worry, next season riot will throw something more ridiculous, like, 5 million dollars at the players for esports. l0l
Actually, probably 5 million Euros. Since the dollar is gonna be worth shit in a year. *ahem* I heard a while back that dota 2 had a 1 million prize pool for 1st place in some tournament did that ever actually go through?
Even if it did that doesn't matter considering riot blew that out of the water with their current $2 mil prize pool. Anyone tries to match that they just up the ante next season.
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On June 15 2012 13:08 BlackPaladin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2012 12:37 valheru wrote:On June 15 2012 12:33 BlackPaladin wrote:
Don't worry, next season riot will throw something more ridiculous, like, 5 million dollars at the players for esports. l0l
Actually, probably 5 million Euros. Since the dollar is gonna be worth shit in a year. *ahem* I heard a while back that dota 2 had a 1 million prize pool for 1st place in some tournament did that ever actually go through? Even if it did that doesn't matter considering riot blew that out of the water with their current $2 mil prize pool. Anyone tries to match that they just up the ante next season.
I guess one up-manship can be useful.
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On June 15 2012 12:52 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2012 12:40 SoulSever wrote:On June 15 2012 05:14 Gorsameth wrote:On June 15 2012 05:12 Dark_Chill wrote:
I don't get the comparison to Dota's stronger abilities for heroes. If all the abilities are stronger, then don't they become not strong in the context of the game?
Also, can someone explain Riot's reasoning to make a skin worth the same amount as a champion? Balance through everyone being OP isnt a health form of balance.The reason Dotas abilities are stronger is because the game works different and it works in those settings. Worked for BW... Not at the lower levels. And besides that BW isn't adding new units every week. Some game designer was commenting on the way LoL and DoTA add balance, and how the only sustainable method was to make all the champions fun sized. An analogy could be drawn to reducing weapons rather than creating an unstable nuclear arms race. Can't seem to upload to imgur. Relevant.
That actually made me gol.
Unrelated, but why does Riot have their special sales not linked to the free champion week? Wouldn't it make sense that after you try characters and find one you like, you'd want to buy him/her right away? Though I'm not sure if that would increase or decrease profit. I suppose more people might just wait for them champs to come since more champs would be on sale each weak, and then you'd make less profit because people are paying less for champs. Then again, you'd probably attract more people who usually wouldn't buy and the frequency of purchases would go up.
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Smart way would be to have a champion on sale the week after it was on free rotation and people had time to try before buy while it's still fresh in memory.
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XSplit having issues atm?
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Would that be why every single stream I watch is laggy as hell? Nothing else is different for me, only streams. :/
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On June 15 2012 11:27 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2012 10:15 0123456789 wrote:
I'm happy if Dota2 decides to put ads during gameplay so that every 5 or 10 minutes, the game is paused and an ad is played out for 30 seconds before resuming the game. The funny thing is that the competitive scene would be 100% accustomed to those kinds of interruptions, because in WC3 with no reconnect, you'd have to have a multiplayer save every 5-10 minutes to begin with. Show nested quote +On June 15 2012 10:06 1ntrigue wrote:
Gameplay is not going to be a key reason because DotA and HoN already exist on the market with the same gameplay, and LoL players have shown that they enjoy LoL's gameplay more. Gameplay is actually a pretty relevant reason. I stopped playing WC3 DotA because a lot of the core features I'd grown accustomed to on other MOBA games was not present (e.g. reconnect), and there's a lot of overhead getting set up on any of the currently popular custom ladders. HoN just butchered their business model. From talking to other players in the DotA 2 forum, I'm also not the only one who chose to play LoL over HoN or WC3 DotA prior to getting into the DotA 2 beta. I'm sure there are many more players waiting to make that switch. Show nested quote +On June 15 2012 10:06 1ntrigue wrote:
Lastly, there are people who suggest that the MOBA market is not a zero sum game. I disagree in the context of DotA 2 v LoL. DotA 2 will attract veterans of the MOBA market, whereas players who are new to the game will not enjoy the IMHO outdated gameplay of DotA 2 and will get flamed out by the comparatively more competitive scene. DotA 2 will basically not retain any new consumers of the MOBA market. LoL will still remain the gatekeepers of the MOBA market (as long as it can keep up in marketing and graphics, which it is showing it can) and will have the larger playerbase and earn more money. How can MOBA gameplay even be labeled as "outdated"? How does gameplay in a genre that's only existed for less than a decade, and which pretty much all members of the genre undertake persistent patch cycles of content addition and revision become obsolete? The term doesn't even make sense in this context.
I did feel that my claim about DotA 2's gameplay being outdated would be controversial. To clarify what I meant, there is a noticeable trend of games going "casual" in the last decade or so. In the past, "casual" would be a hideous insult to a gamer, but more and more so today, "casual" describes gamers who have less time to play or those who prefer easier games to let off steam. DotA 2's gameplay is reminiscent of the old-school, unforgiving form of gameplay, where twitch-based reactions combined with a huge knowledge bank are necessary to simply not get flamed by your own team (who are made of hardcore players who try their best every game and expect others to meet their standards). LoL is a far more friendly game than DotA 2, and while the hardcore part of me may squirm, I heartily agree with most of their changes, especially the removal of the denial mechanic, the simplification of brush/tree vision, the skillshot aiming system, the lower power scaling, the removal of str/agi/int, the scaling of AP/AD, the addition of jungle objectives, the addition of respawning inhibitors and the addition of summoner spells, runes and masteries, etc. All in all, LoL is a far more refined game than DotA 2 by today's gaming standards, and because of this, it will draw the bigger crowd. There will certainly be those that prefer DotA 2's gameplay over LoL, but this will be a barely significant portion of the MOBA market.
That is why I claim DotA 2's gameplay is outdated. That is also why I claim that gameplay will not allow DotA 2 to win over LoL in the MOBA market. It is not designed to make the big money. It's designed to be niche. It's Maserati (despite all its technical faults, it's beautiful to those who can appreciate it) vs Porsche (easy to like, full product range, easy to buy and maintain).
On June 15 2012 11:43 Vaporized wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2012 10:06 1ntrigue wrote:On June 15 2012 03:11 TheYango wrote:On June 15 2012 03:07 spinesheath wrote:On June 15 2012 02:56 r.Evo wrote:On June 15 2012 02:46 Sponkz wrote:On June 15 2012 02:35 Live2Win wrote:
I'd say GP ulti is more like Gyrocopter's ult with agh.
lol this got me into looking at the playdota website again, a place I haven't visited in over a year and there's like 4/5 heroes I've never seen before That's kinda funny. If it was LoL you haven't been playing for a year it would be more in the line of 15-20 champions you haven't seen before ^^ Well they just HAVE to change something about it sooner or later. At one point people will realize that League is one of the most expensive games on the market right now. =P Not exactly. If you want to buy everything the game has to offer, sure. But for the price of SC2, you can get a good number of champs. Add an "expansion" and you can easily afford runepages and more champs. LoL has more to offer than what you can get for that money, but you can still buy enough to call it a full game. You don't go into a shop and say "this is the most expensive shop in the world" just because it has more stuff than you can afford, either. The thing is, LoL is now competing with a game where all of the meaningful content is free and unlocked at the start, and only the cosmetic extras cost money. Granted, I doubt DotA 2 will really have that big of an impact on LoL, seeing as how different the playerbases are, but the fact that DotA 2's business model is essentially only selling cosmetics has got to turn at least a few heads at Riot HQ. I predict that once DotA 2's announcement loses its thunder, and DotA 2 approaches release, that Riot will significantly reduce the IP to buy champions. That way, players who are mainly F2P will be able to farm up champions more easily, while players who are mainly P2P will still buy champions, resulting in a mitigated lose of income (which it doesn't need as much as Valve). i more or less agree with what you said except for this part. valve doesnt need money. they essentially print their own with steam.
It's irrelevant how rich or successful Valve is. What is relevant is how much money will DotA 2 generate for Valve. If it doesn't justify the resources assigned to it then those resources will be relocated. Riot depends on LoL for its income and it has shown that it will do what it takes to remain the market leader.
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On June 15 2012 13:41 BlackPaladin wrote:
Would that be why every single stream I watch is laggy as hell? Nothing else is different for me, only streams. :/
60-90 minutes ago my XSplit stopped being able to transmit to Own3D. Other streams were fine. 10 minutes ago XSplit had issues syncing profile w/ server, but after a second attempt it went through and I could stream through Own3D again.
Not sure who's at fault.
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On June 15 2012 10:25 iCanada wrote:
I've decided I suck at carrying games.
If I crush my lane, and my team not relatively even I just lose every time. My score will be like ~10/2/10 but everyone else useless. If I get raped in lane, I win every time.
So weird, lose lane win game, win lane lose game.
-.-
Someone teach me how to carry.
If you crush your lane, you will have to allocate your time between continuing to destroy lane and helping snowball other lanes as the situation requires. Then you just have to teamfight well and make sure the team knows you're fed and don't just pussy out of good fights.
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you underestimate dota2 on all counts. dota is massive in asia and europe, and it seems like many people who played dota back in the day prefer dota 2 to LoL. whereas people who werent into dota were able to get into LoL due to the way the leveling system works and a generally less mechanically demanding game and playerbase. valve are genuises at marketing their products and im certain they will give dota2 the launch it deserves.
and from all indications the dota2 team at valve is relatively small and seem to be doing their own thing. besides gaben is a self-described dota 2 addict- the game, like everything valve does, will be a huge success.
all that said, im not sure dota2 will reach the high that LoL is currently enjoying, LoL reminds me a lot of WoW in that it's success is unlikely to ever be replicated.
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On June 15 2012 13:59 Vaporized wrote:
you underestimate dota2 on all counts. dota is massive in asia and europe, and it seems like many people who played dota back in the day prefer dota 2 to LoL. whereas people who werent into dota were able to get into LoL due to the way the leveling system works and a generally less mechanically demanding game and playerbase. valve are genuises at marketing their products and im certain they will give dota2 the launch it deserves.
and from all indications the dota2 team at valve is relatively small and seem to be doing their own thing. besides gaben is a self-described dota 2 addict- the game, like everything valve does, will be a huge success.
all that said, im not sure dota2 will reach the high that LoL is currently enjoying, LoL reminds me a lot of WoW in that it's success is unlikely to ever be replicated.
I think he acknowledged Dota 2 as a good game with great gameplay, but he basically said what you said. LoL not only has almost all of the casual and a portion of the hardcore, but everything about it helps people get attached to it (elo, champion roster, teams, true dedication not needed until higher levels, etc). Dota 2 will still bode well with a large amount of the people who played Dota and HoN, along with new people who weren't attracted to LoL. It won't be a small audience, but it won't be near the size of LoL, especially with it dominating moba e-sports.
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On June 15 2012 13:59 Vaporized wrote:
you underestimate dota2 on all counts. dota is massive in asia and europe, and it seems like many people who played dota back in the day prefer dota 2 to LoL. whereas people who werent into dota were able to get into LoL due to the way the leveling system works and a generally less mechanically demanding game and playerbase. valve are genuises at marketing their products and im certain they will give dota2 the launch it deserves.
and from all indications the dota2 team at valve is relatively small and seem to be doing their own thing. besides gaben is a self-described dota 2 addict- the game, like everything valve does, will be a huge success.
all that said, im not sure dota2 will reach the high that LoL is currently enjoying, LoL reminds me a lot of WoW in that it's success is unlikely to ever be replicated.
Well, those who played dota back in the days may prefer dota2 to LoL, but I doubt they gonna play it massively. They got old, got family and job. New generation of players are coming, and most likely they'll prefer LoL for its casualness.
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On June 15 2012 12:52 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2012 12:40 SoulSever wrote:On June 15 2012 05:14 Gorsameth wrote:On June 15 2012 05:12 Dark_Chill wrote:
I don't get the comparison to Dota's stronger abilities for heroes. If all the abilities are stronger, then don't they become not strong in the context of the game?
Also, can someone explain Riot's reasoning to make a skin worth the same amount as a champion? Balance through everyone being OP isnt a health form of balance.The reason Dotas abilities are stronger is because the game works different and it works in those settings. Worked for BW... Not at the lower levels. And besides that BW isn't adding new units every week. Some game designer was commenting on the way LoL and DoTA add balance, and how the only sustainable method was to make all the champions fun sized. An analogy could be drawn to reducing weapons rather than creating an unstable nuclear arms race. Can't seem to upload to imgur. Relevant.
I've always thought of LoL as borrowing from the design philosophy of a fighting game. Instead of each ability being stand-alone epic on its own right, casting a spell once in LoL might be like hitting the 'punch' in Street Fighter. Pretty much everyone in SF has a punch, a throw, etc., just like many champions have a cheap, short CD spell, a utility spell, etc., and are set apart by finer differences. Perhaps 'combos' (both from a single champ or coordinated team) are weaker in LoL, but missing them is a lot more forgiving than in dota, ability costs are lower, and cooldowns are generally shorter. Whiffing all your shit doesn't make you useless for the next two minutes in Street Fighter (you may have burned your super gauge but you can still duke it out), but it DOES leave you momentarily open to attack.
Mostly just trying to bring in some other design perspectives than the tired DotA vs LoL.
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it's impossible for vast majority to break into competitive dota. lol is more 'egalitarian' skillwise. even noncompetitive players can do shit that they see in tournaments. in that sense lol is better, though they really need to have a new champ bundle to not shut out the tryhards starting out
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On June 15 2012 15:17 Flakes wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2012 12:52 obesechicken13 wrote:On June 15 2012 12:40 SoulSever wrote:On June 15 2012 05:14 Gorsameth wrote:On June 15 2012 05:12 Dark_Chill wrote:
I don't get the comparison to Dota's stronger abilities for heroes. If all the abilities are stronger, then don't they become not strong in the context of the game?
Also, can someone explain Riot's reasoning to make a skin worth the same amount as a champion? Balance through everyone being OP isnt a health form of balance.The reason Dotas abilities are stronger is because the game works different and it works in those settings. Worked for BW... Not at the lower levels. And besides that BW isn't adding new units every week. Some game designer was commenting on the way LoL and DoTA add balance, and how the only sustainable method was to make all the champions fun sized. An analogy could be drawn to reducing weapons rather than creating an unstable nuclear arms race. Can't seem to upload to imgur. Relevant. I've always thought of LoL as borrowing from the design philosophy of a fighting game. Instead of each ability being stand-alone epic on its own right, casting a spell once in LoL might be like hitting the 'punch' in Street Fighter. Pretty much everyone in SF has a punch, a throw, etc., just like many champions have a cheap, short CD spell, a utility spell, etc., and are set apart by finer differences. Perhaps 'combos' (both from a single champ or coordinated team) are weaker in LoL, but missing them is a lot more forgiving than in dota, ability costs are lower, and cooldowns are generally shorter. Whiffing all your shit doesn't make you useless for the next two minutes in Street Fighter (you may have burned your super gauge but you can still duke it out), but it DOES leave you momentarily open to attack. Mostly just trying to bring in some other design perspectives than the tired DotA vs LoL.
This is basically the way I look at it, and obviously I'm not advocating for any change in LoL or anything, but I just can't help but prefer the more dota/bw style of everything being strong rather than everything being weak. No one wants to play supports in LoL because they can be boring to play and make you feel ineffective or useless (at most levels in non-serious play ok).
Playing supports in dota is fucking amazing though, and it's my preferred role. Hell, the other day I played dota 2 with a group of friends for the first time in a month or so, and within ten minutes of playing support veno I pulled something off that was more mechanically difficult and more satisfying than anything I've done in league in recent memory that netted our lane a double kill. And the sad part is it was literally just placing down wards blind to cut a running hero off and microing them to last hit the hero. Nothing special, nothing super cool-- but league just doesn't have anything like that.
I feel like I understand and agree with a lot of league's design decisions, but I just can't help but wish that my friends had the balls to play dota 2 regularly instead of league 
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On June 15 2012 13:59 Vaporized wrote:
you underestimate dota2 on all counts. dota is massive in asia and europe, and it seems like many people who played dota back in the day prefer dota 2 to LoL. whereas people who werent into dota were able to get into LoL due to the way the leveling system works and a generally less mechanically demanding game and playerbase. valve are genuises at marketing their products and im certain they will give dota2 the launch it deserves.
and from all indications the dota2 team at valve is relatively small and seem to be doing their own thing. besides gaben is a self-described dota 2 addict- the game, like everything valve does, will be a huge success.
all that said, im not sure dota2 will reach the high that LoL is currently enjoying, LoL reminds me a lot of WoW in that it's success is unlikely to ever be replicated.
Dark_Chill pretty much answered for me in relation to your post, but just one thing about the popularity of DotA in China.
I'm living in China at the moment, and I spend my time between China where I work and Australia where my friends and family are. I personally find that the popularity of DotA in China is massively, massively overhyped. Chinese youth love video games in general. There are several reasons for this, including that it is impossible for high school students to play except for a few hours on the weekend (which may only consist of one Sunday afternoon every fortnight for high school seniors), there are few opportunities to play sports casually, it is an escape from social pressures, and most of all, because it is easily accessible. Their love for video games often then becomes an unhealthy addiction once they move on to the relative freedom of university.
However, in such a society, games like DotA are becoming increasingly irrelevant. The new generation of Chinese gamers, contrary to popular belief, is the epitome of casual. They grew up on games where they can play in snippets, i.e. iPhone game ripoffs and QQ online flash games. In special occasions where they can play for a couple hours, they will choose to play a free MMO or a free MOBA where they can fit in a raid boss, a PvP session or a MOBA game, but they will generally choose a type of game where there is a sense of progression. Ironically, play-to-win MOBAs like LoL fit this category whereas the completely "free" DotA does not. Chinese gamers, more than most, want to have a record of what they achieved such that their gaming time did not seem wasted. This pursuit of progression is probably due to the social climate but I digress. Anyway, this partly explains the popularity of MMOs, play-to-win MOBAs and FPSes, social flash games, at the expense of singleplayer-base titles, RTSes and RPG.
Furthermore, consider why DotA was especially popular in China in the first place. The three biggest reasons are the widespread piracy of WC3 in China, the relatively low computer resources required to run the game, and the huge modding community that existed for WC3. Actually, I'll add a fourth reason - there were no more casual alternatives than a pirated WC3 (which everyone had) and its mods, which are more casual than WC3 itself. Regardless, there are still far more WC3 fans in China than DotA fans. This comparison is, in fact, a joke. To the contrary, DotA is actually less popular in China than certain other WC3 mods, which coincidentally are more noob-friendly.
All I said in the above paragraph can almost be disregarded now because the majority of the generation of WC3 fans has already entered the workforce, and the newer generation is almost completely unattached to WC3 and its mods. Most high school and university students today play free MMOs, and those who do not, mostly play play-to-win MOBAs or FPSes. If you go to an internet cafe in urban China today, you will see ~30% on MMOs and social things, ~20% on WC3 or a WC3 mod that is not DotA, ~20% on a play-to-win FPS, ~10% on SC2, ~10% on LoL and <10% on DotA. The two major reasons why LoL is not outright beating DotA in the Chinese market are the computer requirements required to run it and the lack of an offline option. Nonetheless, there is far more new blood going into LoL than DotA.
So, is DotA bigger than LoL in China? Culturally, yes. In terms of hours played, arguable - in urban centres, LoL >= DotA, in provincial areas with less wealth and poorer internet access, DotA > LoL. But LoL is growing insanely fast and DotA, to be honest, is beginning to dip in China.
Valve cannot count on China to embrace DotA 2. In fact, Valve should be very worried about the Chinese market because it's being stolen from under their noses. To Valve's credit, there is one huge advantage for DotA 2 in China in provincial areas and that is the addition of LAN mode.
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EPT
