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On July 06 2012 00:09 Keniji wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2012 23:50 Conversion wrote:On July 05 2012 23:28 Promises wrote:
A question regarding picking policy:
First a bit about myself. I'm ranked at 1450 or so, with highest at ~~1520. I play every role decently, but I prefer mid or certain specific champions (Akali top, Alistar Jungle for instance). In champion selection I'm often faced with a bit of a dilemma. I'm generally the only guy actually saying he'll play whatever (but prefers mid). I ask what's left and I take that, often ending up with support (which I'm fine with). This does mean however, that it's very hard to cary a game if your AD isn't good. Now I still believe that it's better if everyone plays what they'r best at, and since I dont have a really strong preference I dont mind picking leftovers, but how should I balance this out? I'm at a level where if the opposing mid is slightly conservative and has a good jungler I can't dominate hard/hardcary the game anymore (which I guess means I belong at the 1500'ish rating, which is fine aswell), but some people just completely trash the game as whatever role they wanted while being last-pick, and I'm left wondering if it hadnt been better if I had just claimed that spot and left them to support (with all the ensueing drama, ragequitting, afk'ing and whining taken on the chin). What do you reckon is wise? what i did to get out of 1500 was to support as little as possible like if i played 20 games, i would support once. granted, it's not bad to learn and play support but as you said, you really can't carry games by supporting. i jungled 19/20 games and im at 1700 now. not bragging or anything, but if you really feel like you can carry your way up just tell your team that you want x role, and if they're being douches and not letting you get it, oh well. tank the elo and write their names down so you never let them get a certain role again LOL. i usually just demand roles though. like "jungle or afk" i think we had that discussion so many times. my taric right now has a winratio of 75% and 30 games played or so. YOU CAN CARRY WITH SUPPORT. I've carried games where my mid and top fed, where my ad sucked. It's all managable to a certain lvl. People are bad at support because (im not good either) they try to avoid it because everyone thinks you cant carry, and therefore they can't. Your jungler is probably just better than your support, and/or you just became a better player overall that's why your elo increased, not because you stopped playing support.
actually my Janna was (still is) one of my best win ratios and such. it remained a steady 80%+ until I had a string of retard ADs that dropped it to 60%
I'm not saying it's impossible or hard to carry with support. it's just not practical to depend so much on your ad carry having half a brain in solo q, from my experience.
experiences in solo q obviously vary from player to player
edit: also I just answered him with my own experiences at his elo, so I never said it was universally true
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On July 06 2012 04:13 Juddas wrote:
yeah well I haven't had trouble with Ali iungle top, even on blue side. Its more terrifying mid.
then you havent played against an Janglestar who isnt retarded
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lol playing support in soloq is like playing any other role. if you're good at it, you'll win. random uncarriable games happen but they have nothing to do with playing support. thats just an excuse people use because they dont want to play it.
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On July 06 2012 02:02 Slayer91 wrote:
Where's this coming from? If you said "I can't carry with APs" and someone said "you're just bad at APs" you wouldn't say anything. A support can carry because supports are extremely strong and have insane utility.
As for soraka carrying, I've carried more games and with less effort with soraka than almost any other champ. The silence is absurd, the heal with armour is absurd, the ult is insanely strong against any AoE and even starcall isn't bad. Healing someone with the armour buff getting targetted by any physical or burst just shuts them down so fast.
Like, seriously. "I can't carry with supports therefore supports are bad" "No actually you don't carry with supports because you're bad at supports". "Don't call me bad, you can't prove that!". It's your word against mine with this, and 99% of this board as well, but if you want to get with the facts? Check the support winrates. The top tier supports have disproportionately high winrates and always have.
It's rather easy where it's comming from. The whole idea with supports is that they do not need gear to do their job efficently. Therefor, if you go well, you go well but you do not gain a gear advantage. Therefore, if your carries fail to do well, even tho you help them, you are no further ahead. If you are a carry, doing well means getting ahead in gear and level, which gives the ability to carry a game. As a support, if you have a good or bad start will matter to your AD, but lategame you'll be roughly as efficient as the other case. Not so much for carries.
And I didn't even mean it in a way that your statement couldn't be true, just int he sense that it adds very little info at all. Ofcourse you're not obliged to help me out, but it would be nicer to actually point out ways either to deal with the situation i described, or how to carry as a support, rather then go: "well your bad!".
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United States47024 Posts
On July 06 2012 05:11 Promises wrote:
It's rather easy where it's comming from. The whole idea with supports is that they do not need gear to do their job efficently. Therefor, if you go well, you go well but you do not gain a gear advantage. Therefore, if your carries fail to do well, even tho you help them, you are no further ahead. If you are a carry, doing well means getting ahead in gear and level, which gives the ability to carry a game. As a support, if you have a good or bad start will matter to your AD, but lategame you'll be roughly as efficient as the other case. Not so much for carries.
A support with Shurelya's + Aegis lategame has massively more teamfight presence than one that just has 2 naked gp10s.
A support that has the gold to afford oracles and a ton of wards has a much larger influence than one that can't afford them.
Just because a support does not have high demand for farm does not mean the difference between a support without gold/levels and a support with them isn't massive.
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I am still convinced that around lower and mid level elos, the most important thing you can do to win games is to ward, and ping stuff. It does not matter which role you play, and not even really how good you are at it unless you suck hard. If you do those two things, your chances of winning increase tremendously. I noticed that when playing jungler, and i simply always buy wards when i have any surplus money, and since you don't really have to concentrate on what you do while jungling, you can easily watch the minimap all the time. Just ping whenever someone appears on any of your wards, and suddenly people actually notice them, and react. Ping if you meet someone in your jungle, and tell people to shut up when they are flaming each other. Sometimes they listen.
And support is very well able to win the lane for your carry. Of course, that is reliant on your carry not being a total retard, but winning the game almost always is reliant on that. The interesting area is when your carry is not good, but also not bad. And most carries fall into that area. Someone like taric, leona, blitz or alistar can easily win the lane hard under those circumstances. Which suddenly turns your maybe average carry into an uberfed monster that slaughters everything. Soraka is just strong at sustaining your carry, but i would only pick her with urgot or graves, and then just tell them to spam their shit. The main element of carrying with soraka is to just not feed. Somehow, about half the sorakas i meet just feed hard for some reason. It is not really hard to play her decently. Still, i would place her far behind the aggressive supports in her ability to carry your carry. Leona is godly against anything that is not Ez if both carries are of similar skill, taric and ali are good aggressive supports with a bit of sustain, and blitz is good when you can hook the carry. All of them can easily win the game if played properly.
Of course there are always carries that are so bad you can't help them, but most are not. Most are somewhere where, if you feed them properly, they will win the game, and if you don't support them properly, they fail. It is a mistake to just look at the most horrible carry you can find, and then say "this is why a support cant carry". Honestly, do you really think you would have won with that guy when you played an other role? 10 cs at 20 mins, 0/4. Of course you can't support that guy, but he will also lose you the game on any other spot, and when you are on any other spot. But a good support can turn a mediocre carry into a fed mediocre carry, which is still really scary, especially when you at the same time shut down their carry.
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On July 06 2012 05:32 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2012 05:11 Promises wrote:
It's rather easy where it's comming from. The whole idea with supports is that they do not need gear to do their job efficently. Therefor, if you go well, you go well but you do not gain a gear advantage. Therefore, if your carries fail to do well, even tho you help them, you are no further ahead. If you are a carry, doing well means getting ahead in gear and level, which gives the ability to carry a game. As a support, if you have a good or bad start will matter to your AD, but lategame you'll be roughly as efficient as the other case. Not so much for carries. A support with Shurelya's + Aegis lategame has massively more teamfight presence than one that just has 2 naked gp10s. A support that has the gold to afford oracles and a ton of wards has a much larger influence than one that can't afford them. Just because a support does not have high demand for farm does not mean the difference between a support without gold/levels and a support with them isn't massive.
Obviously it does make SOME difference, otherwise why bother with GP5 at all, i'm just saying it's not the same difference it makes on carries.
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On July 06 2012 06:15 Promises wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2012 05:32 TheYango wrote:On July 06 2012 05:11 Promises wrote:
It's rather easy where it's comming from. The whole idea with supports is that they do not need gear to do their job efficently. Therefor, if you go well, you go well but you do not gain a gear advantage. Therefore, if your carries fail to do well, even tho you help them, you are no further ahead. If you are a carry, doing well means getting ahead in gear and level, which gives the ability to carry a game. As a support, if you have a good or bad start will matter to your AD, but lategame you'll be roughly as efficient as the other case. Not so much for carries. A support with Shurelya's + Aegis lategame has massively more teamfight presence than one that just has 2 naked gp10s. A support that has the gold to afford oracles and a ton of wards has a much larger influence than one that can't afford them. Just because a support does not have high demand for farm does not mean the difference between a support without gold/levels and a support with them isn't massive. Obviously it does make SOME difference, otherwise why bother with GP5 at all, i'm just saying it's not the same difference it makes on carries.
if you're a good support you will get your carry fed. i don't get what you're trying to say lol.
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On July 06 2012 06:24 De4ngus wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2012 06:15 Promises wrote:On July 06 2012 05:32 TheYango wrote:On July 06 2012 05:11 Promises wrote:
It's rather easy where it's comming from. The whole idea with supports is that they do not need gear to do their job efficently. Therefor, if you go well, you go well but you do not gain a gear advantage. Therefore, if your carries fail to do well, even tho you help them, you are no further ahead. If you are a carry, doing well means getting ahead in gear and level, which gives the ability to carry a game. As a support, if you have a good or bad start will matter to your AD, but lategame you'll be roughly as efficient as the other case. Not so much for carries. A support with Shurelya's + Aegis lategame has massively more teamfight presence than one that just has 2 naked gp10s. A support that has the gold to afford oracles and a ton of wards has a much larger influence than one that can't afford them. Just because a support does not have high demand for farm does not mean the difference between a support without gold/levels and a support with them isn't massive. Obviously it does make SOME difference, otherwise why bother with GP5 at all, i'm just saying it's not the same difference it makes on carries. if you're a good support you will get your carry fed. i don't get what you're trying to say lol.
In all fairness however, if your AD Carry has zero clue how to last hit or position there is little you can do to save them. At this point you may as well focus on yourself.
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On July 05 2012 19:30 -Zoda- wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2012 18:44 IMoperator wrote:
So basically just abuse annie's auto attack range and possibly buy some MR items? Thanks guys. The best thing to do is probably to get some AD runes, her range is so good...
And if you have MR glyphs + quints, that's basically a free null magic mantle - you might not even need to buy another MR item for a while if you end up stomping him with a setup like that.
My friend who mains mid has his AD mark / hp seal / mr glyph / mr quint page is titled "I love kassadin" for pretty much this reason. It works rather well for vs. Leblanc, Fizz, and other APs who function like they do as well.
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Been toying around with support TF for a while now. Maximum GP5 runes+masteries. Spam gold cards and stacked deck shiny cards and collect bot lane kills  . Pretty often able to turn around jungle ganks into shorthanded kills because of the spammability of gold card stun.
To boot, my brother is a 2k elo jungle twitch. Playing games weird runs in the family.
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On July 06 2012 06:15 Promises wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2012 05:32 TheYango wrote:On July 06 2012 05:11 Promises wrote:
It's rather easy where it's comming from. The whole idea with supports is that they do not need gear to do their job efficently. Therefor, if you go well, you go well but you do not gain a gear advantage. Therefore, if your carries fail to do well, even tho you help them, you are no further ahead. If you are a carry, doing well means getting ahead in gear and level, which gives the ability to carry a game. As a support, if you have a good or bad start will matter to your AD, but lategame you'll be roughly as efficient as the other case. Not so much for carries. A support with Shurelya's + Aegis lategame has massively more teamfight presence than one that just has 2 naked gp10s. A support that has the gold to afford oracles and a ton of wards has a much larger influence than one that can't afford them. Just because a support does not have high demand for farm does not mean the difference between a support without gold/levels and a support with them isn't massive. Obviously it does make SOME difference, otherwise why bother with GP5 at all, i'm just saying it's not the same difference it makes on carries.
Supports aren't supports because they don't scale. They are supports because their base strength is huge.
Notice how people sometimes play AP Janna. She obviously can do something with excess money. Soraka with enough money to afford tankiness is really strong. Sona and Alistar do very well with a Triforce.
Excess money on supports can be used just as efficiently as the same amount on bruisers and most casters. Ranged ADs are a bit different because of their obscene multiplicative scaling once they have a couple of big items.
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On July 06 2012 05:11 Promises wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2012 02:02 Slayer91 wrote:
Where's this coming from? If you said "I can't carry with APs" and someone said "you're just bad at APs" you wouldn't say anything. A support can carry because supports are extremely strong and have insane utility.
As for soraka carrying, I've carried more games and with less effort with soraka than almost any other champ. The silence is absurd, the heal with armour is absurd, the ult is insanely strong against any AoE and even starcall isn't bad. Healing someone with the armour buff getting targetted by any physical or burst just shuts them down so fast.
Like, seriously. "I can't carry with supports therefore supports are bad" "No actually you don't carry with supports because you're bad at supports". "Don't call me bad, you can't prove that!". It's your word against mine with this, and 99% of this board as well, but if you want to get with the facts? Check the support winrates. The top tier supports have disproportionately high winrates and always have. It's rather easy where it's comming from. The whole idea with supports is that they do not need gear to do their job efficently. Therefor, if you go well, you go well but you do not gain a gear advantage. Therefore, if your carries fail to do well, even tho you help them, you are no further ahead. If you are a carry, doing well means getting ahead in gear and level, which gives the ability to carry a game. As a support, if you have a good or bad start will matter to your AD, but lategame you'll be roughly as efficient as the other case. Not so much for carries. And I didn't even mean it in a way that your statement couldn't be true, just int he sense that it adds very little info at all. Ofcourse you're not obliged to help me out, but it would be nicer to actually point out ways either to deal with the situation i described, or how to carry as a support, rather then go: "well your bad!".
"Doesn't need gear" doesn't mean "doesn't benefit from gear".
-Getting gear helps you
-Doing well gives your carry an easier time in the lane, and their lane a harder on, double whammy there. If you did worse your carry would be doing even worse and theirs would be fed.
-Doing well in teamfights means you will win taemfights you would normally lose making your whole team get better gaer
-Having more levels and gear makes you tankier allowing you to get away with more in teamfights
How to carry as support? Make good decisions, don't make bad ones. LoL isn't as simple a game where you can say "do t his and carry". You lane well, you ward well, you teamfight well, you itemize well, that's all you can do with anyone. Carries get more damage with farm, you get cooldown reduction and tankyness. More CDR = more casting your spells which don't need gear. More tankiness lets you hit squishier targets and not die in teamfights = mroe spells. And more mana regen with chalice if you need mana to keep spamming spells in teamfight.s
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So guys, do you think the buffs on Nunu will make him a top tier jungler? It looks like the consume buff is really going to allow for a nicer jungle clear and potential counter jungling but do you think it is enough?
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On July 06 2012 07:47 Shiragaku wrote:
So guys, do you think the buffs on Nunu will make him a top tier jungler? It looks like the consume buff is really going to allow for a nicer jungle clear and potential counter jungling but do you think it is enough?
Still quite garbage lategame imo. Although he has some potential in arranged play when built armor and making sure ennemy AD carry can't deal damage maybe.
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On July 06 2012 07:47 Shiragaku wrote:
So guys, do you think the buffs on Nunu will make him a top tier jungler? It looks like the consume buff is really going to allow for a nicer jungle clear and potential counter jungling but do you think it is enough?
The problem as I see it is that even with the buff, nunu is pretty useless for anything other than jungling if he puts more than one point into consume. Yes the cooldown goes down, yes it does more damage but it does 0 in ganks whereas bloodboil will help chase and snowball is a slow. Realistically, putting more than one point into consume means that your snowball is weaker and honestly, level 1/2 snowball don't slow that much.
Edit:: Also, lategame nunu does little more as a jungler than as a support. He'll be able to slow the enemy AD more readily with snowball since he'll most likely be tankier but his role will be primarily to bb the AD carry and to hit his ultimate in the middle of everyone. It'll do more damage and he'll live longer doing it but it doesn't make enough of a difference to really matter.
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No nunu sucks don't play him.
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I don't know, it is kind of weird. I think he is rather bad at clearing camps, but pretty good at killing single mobs. That in combination with his slow + mobility might make him very good at counterjungling, and if he gets close to someone, they probably won't escape a gank with the absurd slow. Consume might also enable you to jungle without smite, if you want two summoners.
The problem i see is that he is rather bad at farming his own jungle, since he has no AoE to clear small camps fast.
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On July 06 2012 07:54 SnK-Arcbound wrote:
No nunu sucks don't play him.
Stop hiding your secrets!!! When Nunu buffs inc hes gunna be FOTM calling it HERE
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EPT
