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On June 18 2012 11:29 Phrost wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 11:02 gtrsrs wrote:On June 18 2012 10:53 Fuzzmosis wrote:On June 18 2012 10:39 gtrsrs wrote:
the one thing i don't get is, how come riot hasn't just PUT IN THE WORK to make a new client?
i mean, Pulsefire Ezreal is gonna cost $20 the first week, and like $32 from then on. like i said they're gonna make $20 million off of that skin alone, EASILY and that's if only a million people buy the skin when worldwide there are like 100 million players. look at your friend's list. do you have 300 friends? do you think at least 3 of them are going to buy the skin? that's all they need...
there are smart, driven people out there that will ensure an exact copy of all of LoL's features can be reproduced on a stable, easy-to-manage client. yes, they will cost money. riot literally SHITS money right now. you need to hire 10 of the best programmers for $200k/year salary to do the tedious job of making your client not run like shit? GUESS WHAT RIOT YOU HAVE THE MONEY. shit, riot could pay me and my 7 closest complete idiot non-computer-savvy friends a quarter of that and we'd be happy to learn whatever language it'd take and get it done in 6 months. nothing is hard or slow when you can put money behind it and riot has the money
i'm still baffled by the "achievements" tab being grayed out after nearly what, two years? they haven't been able to hire some intern for $15/hr to come up with 20 achievements and their prizes and another intern to copy-paste some code to implement them into the system? we hear so often that "the people that do the art don't work on the servers" and "our people are busy with other projects right now" ... are you kidding me? fucking hire more people you greedy bastards. you can hold off on buying suits made out of dollar bills and gold thread can't you? oh, you can't? ok carry on then Reprogramming a client with the same assets (or possibly remaking them), multiplayer with millions of active hosted games, spectator function, runes/masteries, store (secure), chatrooms, and then a server side program with linked functionality that is stable + international in multiple languages and displays. You're sounding like a 17 year old who claims he has a 4 foot verticle jump. Just FYI. It would be nice, but you're rather underselling just how much work has gone into this current client, let alone a future one. i had a 38" vertical when i was 17 years old just for the record and okay, if i'm underselling how much work, just replace "$200k/year salary" with "$500k/year salary" or if you don't think 5mil could make a new client, triple it again no task is impossible if you put enough money behind it and honestly riot makes enough money to cure cancer at this point they just need to get rid of the lazy pieces of shit like Tamat (pre-emptive edit: i'm just going out on a limb here, i *heard* that Tamat was the one responsible for summoners not getting their promised reward for reaching 2million youtube fans on the official riot channel, i make no claims that he was actually responsible but i'm going to use him as my example here) who were probably around for the creation of the game but now contribute nothing to the company (seriously, that youtube thing took like over a year to implement a weekend-long double IP weekend lmao), as well as whoever it was that promised beta players would get new icons, whoever it was that put in an achievements tab with no content, whoever it was that did this or that... fire them all, get some new blood in the company, pay them a shit ton of money, and watch the results happen Let me explain to you how programming works in terms you may understand. When you want to have a baby, you find a woman, have sex, and wait 9 months. If you have 2 women, you still only get a baby after 9 months, not 4.5 months. If you have 2 women, you get 2 babies after 9 months. Now let's say you want a grand child. Now you need to find a woman, have sex, wait 9 months. Then the baby is born, for argument's sake isn't a terrible person, and waits until they're 18, has sex, wait 9 months, have a grand child. That took 18 months + 18 years (19.5 years) for that to happen. Adding more people to the equation doesn't make it go any faster.
And that's why you outsource it to another country where the laws allow you to... uh... never mind.
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On June 18 2012 11:29 Phrost wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 11:02 gtrsrs wrote:On June 18 2012 10:53 Fuzzmosis wrote:On June 18 2012 10:39 gtrsrs wrote:
the one thing i don't get is, how come riot hasn't just PUT IN THE WORK to make a new client?
i mean, Pulsefire Ezreal is gonna cost $20 the first week, and like $32 from then on. like i said they're gonna make $20 million off of that skin alone, EASILY and that's if only a million people buy the skin when worldwide there are like 100 million players. look at your friend's list. do you have 300 friends? do you think at least 3 of them are going to buy the skin? that's all they need...
there are smart, driven people out there that will ensure an exact copy of all of LoL's features can be reproduced on a stable, easy-to-manage client. yes, they will cost money. riot literally SHITS money right now. you need to hire 10 of the best programmers for $200k/year salary to do the tedious job of making your client not run like shit? GUESS WHAT RIOT YOU HAVE THE MONEY. shit, riot could pay me and my 7 closest complete idiot non-computer-savvy friends a quarter of that and we'd be happy to learn whatever language it'd take and get it done in 6 months. nothing is hard or slow when you can put money behind it and riot has the money
i'm still baffled by the "achievements" tab being grayed out after nearly what, two years? they haven't been able to hire some intern for $15/hr to come up with 20 achievements and their prizes and another intern to copy-paste some code to implement them into the system? we hear so often that "the people that do the art don't work on the servers" and "our people are busy with other projects right now" ... are you kidding me? fucking hire more people you greedy bastards. you can hold off on buying suits made out of dollar bills and gold thread can't you? oh, you can't? ok carry on then Reprogramming a client with the same assets (or possibly remaking them), multiplayer with millions of active hosted games, spectator function, runes/masteries, store (secure), chatrooms, and then a server side program with linked functionality that is stable + international in multiple languages and displays. You're sounding like a 17 year old who claims he has a 4 foot verticle jump. Just FYI. It would be nice, but you're rather underselling just how much work has gone into this current client, let alone a future one. i had a 38" vertical when i was 17 years old just for the record and okay, if i'm underselling how much work, just replace "$200k/year salary" with "$500k/year salary" or if you don't think 5mil could make a new client, triple it again no task is impossible if you put enough money behind it and honestly riot makes enough money to cure cancer at this point they just need to get rid of the lazy pieces of shit like Tamat (pre-emptive edit: i'm just going out on a limb here, i *heard* that Tamat was the one responsible for summoners not getting their promised reward for reaching 2million youtube fans on the official riot channel, i make no claims that he was actually responsible but i'm going to use him as my example here) who were probably around for the creation of the game but now contribute nothing to the company (seriously, that youtube thing took like over a year to implement a weekend-long double IP weekend lmao), as well as whoever it was that promised beta players would get new icons, whoever it was that put in an achievements tab with no content, whoever it was that did this or that... fire them all, get some new blood in the company, pay them a shit ton of money, and watch the results happen Let me explain to you how programming works in terms you may understand. When you want to have a baby, you find a woman, have sex, and wait 9 months. If you have 2 women, you still only get a baby after 9 months, not 4.5 months. If you have 2 women, you get 2 babies after 9 months. Now let's say you want a grand child. Now you need to find a woman, have sex, wait 9 months. Then the baby is born, for argument's sake isn't a terrible person, and waits until they're 18, has sex, wait 9 months, have a grand child. That took 18 months + 18 years (19.5 years) for that to happen. Adding more people to the equation doesn't make it go any faster. Now if you want to teach the baby to walk and talk, 2 teachers makes it faster than one (one focuses on walking, one focuses on talking) but that does not double productivity because some resources needed to be allocated to learning both subjects. tl;dr More money and more people do not yield a faster result. As more people play the game, there is a greater need to also trouble shoot any possible problems because more people get angry if something goes wrong. Consequently, everything takes forever and you should just deal with it or not play the game anymore. One of the most intensive and coolest things that Riot has implemented recently is an improved animation system and improved graphics pipeline that allows them to use higher poly models and not lose frame rate. I duno about you but I'd rather the game look prettier than get some bs achievements that are nothing but for ego measuring.
Actually, coming from someone who's programmed on a team before, adding more people can occasionally make a project take longer and not even move at the same speed, just for the simple fact that people eventually start tripping over one another, you start getting conflicting needs and requirements, and any sort of collaborative effort starts turning into a clusterfuck, for lack of a better word. There's a saturation point of how many team members are best, and it varies from project to project.
From the other side of "throw money at the problem", offering a higher salary to people already working on the project will of course prompt them to work harder, but it doesn't make some problems any easier to fix. Programming and design is a time consuming process even for the best of developers. You can't really make someone type any faster than humanly possible, and roundtable discussions about design and implementation still take time to sit through and talk.
+ Show Spoiler +It's why Half-Life 3 still isn't out >.>
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It's around 200 games afaik. Can be more or less depending on how many wins/losses those 200 are, how long they are, and if you used any boosts.
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you can't make someone work harder, but if you double or quadruple their salary, you can have them work double hours. double hours even at 100% efficiency for the first 8 and 50% efficiency for the second 8, is still going to make the project come to fruition a lot faster
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On June 18 2012 12:11 gtrsrs wrote:
you can't make someone work harder, but if you double or quadruple their salary, you can have them work double hours. double hours even at 100% efficiency for the first 8 and 50% efficiency for the second 8, is still going to make the project come to fruition a lot faster
If youve ever tried working extended hours for long and i mean months at a time you'd know that might work for a week but the longer people work at double hours the less they're gonna enjoy what they're doing(which i imagine is why people are programming games and such) and you're going to get way less efficiency than if you just let them work at their own pace.
saying you can make someone work harder and faster for quadrupling their salary then making them work a double shift is stupid.
and this is coming from someone whos worked under similar conditions to what youre describing.
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On June 18 2012 12:11 gtrsrs wrote:
you can't make someone work harder, but if you double or quadruple their salary, you can have them work double hours. double hours even at 100% efficiency for the first 8 and 50% efficiency for the second 8, is still going to make the project come to fruition a lot faster
lol. u srs?
is there some way i can block this guys posts from showing up?
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On June 18 2012 12:11 gtrsrs wrote:
you can't make someone work harder, but if you double or quadruple their salary, you can have them work double hours. double hours even at 100% efficiency for the first 8 and 50% efficiency for the second 8, is still going to make the project come to fruition a lot faster
Dude, I hope I never work under you lol. I mean, working double hours is great if you're trying to make a deadline, but it's also a nice way to end up with slipshod work and more bugs than you'd have otherwise. They're not on a schedule, and I'd rather have a good new client in a year that's just as buggy in a couple months.
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Gotta love the secret password to log into servers when they are unavailable.
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look i'm not saying that YOU GUYS are the ones that need to be working double hours, or even that the current RIOT employees need to double their hours
but there are people out there who have no problem working 60, 80-hour workweeks for pay-and-a-half. with the money that riot has, they can find many people who don't have any objections to working double hours for double pay
if people are doing something they enjoy and getting paid for it, it doesn't feel like work anyway. not a hard concept. obviously it wouldn't be the job for you. but there are people out there -_-
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I don't think you could blow this any further out of proportion.
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On June 18 2012 12:27 gtrsrs wrote:
look i'm not saying that YOU GUYS are the ones that need to be working double hours, or even that the current RIOT employees need to double their hours
but there are people out there who have no problem working 60, 80-hour workweeks for pay-and-a-half. with the money that riot has, they can find many people who don't have any objections to working double hours for double pay
if people are doing something they enjoy and getting paid for it, it doesn't feel like work anyway. not a hard concept. obviously it wouldn't be the job for you. but there are people out there -_-
However, you'll find that the more hours you're forced to work even something that you enjoy doing will quickly become something you hate and the quality will quickly go down.
I mean I enjoy my job(Phillips Van-Heusen for the record) However not even working double shifts but working 6 and sometimes 7 days a week was enough to make the job nearly unbearable, and that was only working a single shift I don't even wanna imagine a double.
the more youre forced to work even something you once enjoyed will quickly and I mean VERY quickly become something you hate.
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On June 18 2012 12:19 Zooper31 wrote:
Gotta love the secret password to log into servers when they are unavailable.
do tell @_@
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That's not the point I (or anyone else, I think) was trying to make gtr. I'm sure there are people that have no problem doing that, but it's not a magical solution to hire on a full team of people who are raring to work extra hours and just throw them all at the same project. Even the best people in the world who are all hard workers and are game for a challenge working 80 hours a week isn't going to last long, nor is it going to make a perfect system in half the time for obvious reasons.
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On June 18 2012 12:31 Jaso wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 12:19 Zooper31 wrote:
Gotta love the secret password to log into servers when they are unavailable. do tell @_@
there is no urf level
servers still not letting me log in though.
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This is a pointless argument.
Adding more developers can accelerate some processes. In some cases, it doesn't help or makes it worse. It's very uncommon to actually add so many developers that you impede each other's processes.
The great majority of successful companies have competent enough project managers and/or policies to avoid that.
Given how sparse the knowledge of Riot's inner workings are, there's no way to actually say how it would go one way or the other. That said, Riot has such a significant amount of things being worked on simultaneously that I have little doubt they can add developers and speed up projects as a whole, even if specific ones can't be accelerated.
Riot has already stated that many of its employees do work overtime.
Craton's inside scoop in all this? Hi, I'm a full-time software developer. =D.
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oh yeah, I remember seeing someone post that. thought it only worked for Busy status though.
wow, liquid112 just recited every country on stream lol.
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On June 18 2012 12:32 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 12:31 Jaso wrote:On June 18 2012 12:19 Zooper31 wrote:
Gotta love the secret password to log into servers when they are unavailable. do tell @_@ there is no urf level servers still not letting me log in though.
Though servers are down even if you bypass the play button so no playing 
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On June 18 2012 12:27 gtrsrs wrote:
look i'm not saying that YOU GUYS are the ones that need to be working double hours, or even that the current RIOT employees need to double their hours
but there are people out there who have no problem working 60, 80-hour workweeks for pay-and-a-half. with the money that riot has, they can find many people who don't have any objections to working double hours for double pay
if people are doing something they enjoy and getting paid for it, it doesn't feel like work anyway. not a hard concept. obviously it wouldn't be the job for you. but there are people out there -_-
product development and R&D simply does not work like that. There isn't a sort of 'money + hours = productivity', linear correlation when it comes to people coming up with designs and assets. Not to mention you don't seem to consider the incredibly arduous process of bugfixing, and how difficult it can sometimes be to work in the confines of somebody else's code.
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yes, this IS a pointless argument discussion
my whole point is, RIOT has the money, manpower, and time to circumvent problems like today and to add in features that are both popular and promised, and yet they haven't. i'm not going to stop playing LoL because of it. i'm not going to stop buying skins because of it. i will continue to voice my disappointment in it and play armchair CEO because of it though.
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So Riot just put out another update, issues are "more complicated than they thought".
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EPT
