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United States47024 Posts
In addition to practicing issues for NA teams, which I've discussed at length already, I think NA LoL is sort of stopped up at a point in the evolution of it's teams.
The first generation of major competitive LoL teams are, inevitably, built from solo queue players. There's no infrastructure for team-building, so essentially, teams like CLG and TSM came into existence because players who played together on solo queue decided to play together. There was very little discussion of teamplay or attitudes in the formation of those teams, mostly because there really couldn't be any at that stage.
The problem is, NA LoL hasn't really gotten PAST this stage. The major teams that came into being in this phase (TSM, CLG) all for the most part got their lineups in that early phase, and have just stuck with it. The toxic anti-teamplay attitudes that pervade certain members of those teams (which have been discussed at length here) have continued to impede those teams' development. And they ARE impeding their development. Any successful tournament results happen IN SPITE of things like CLG's bickering.
On the other hand, we look at the major EU teams and see that CLG.Eu and M5 are pretty clearly second-generation teams. The first-generation giants like Fnatic and SK are still around but they're pretty clearly performing less well than the second-generation teams. The hallmark of these newer teams is a bigger emphasis on team coordination and joint performance, and the attitudes toward these sorts of things are much more productive.
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I think new Team EG will be an extremely strong NA force now that the roster has changed a bit. I've heard Nhat say that he loves the new line up because of how they work together and the depth of each players' champ pools. I think EG will surpass CLG and TSM in the future because of what you mentioned, Yango.
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On May 14 2012 05:00 jcarlsoniv wrote:
I think new Team EG will be an extremely strong NA force now that the roster has changed a bit. I've heard Nhat say that he loves the new line up because of how they work together and the depth of each players' champ pools. I think EG will surpass CLG and TSM in the future because of what you mentioned, Yango.
Yeah, they're probably a bit weaker right now than the other three top NA teams but I think in a few months they'll be undisputed #1 NA team. Nhat/Aphro has potential to be the best bot lane in NA imo. Salce has always been amazing. Wings is incredible too. If they stick together with that line up and practice they'll easily become stronger than CLG or TSM or Dignitas.
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From what I've watched on streams the new EG really get along well together. They have similar constant jokes just like CLG.EU does with one another. They just really seem to mesh well personality-wise. That's honestly one of the biggest parts of being a team - being able to really enjoy playing together and not get into these huge argument-fests and blame games like CLG.NA and TSM does. You need that synergy as a team. You can always practice to get better, but you can't completely change a person's personality. They already have some really good players on the team, so meshing well is important.
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^
Look at Dignitas. They're got great synergy when it comes to joking around and whatnot.
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On May 14 2012 04:45 TheYango wrote:
In addition to practicing issues for NA teams, which I've discussed at length already, I think NA LoL is sort of stopped up at a point in the evolution of it's teams.
The first generation of major competitive LoL teams are, inevitably, built from solo queue players. There's no infrastructure for team-building, so essentially, teams like CLG and TSM came into existence because players who played together on solo queue decided to play together. There was very little discussion of teamplay or attitudes in the formation of those teams, mostly because there really couldn't be any at that stage.
The problem is, NA LoL hasn't really gotten PAST this stage. The major teams that came into being in this phase (TSM, CLG) all for the most part got their lineups in that early phase, and have just stuck with it. The toxic anti-teamplay attitudes that pervade certain members of those teams (which have been discussed at length here) have continued to impede those teams' development. And they ARE impeding their development. Any successful tournament results happen IN SPITE of things like CLG's bickering.
On the other hand, we look at the major EU teams and see that CLG.Eu and M5 are pretty clearly second-generation teams. The first-generation giants like Fnatic and SK are still around but they're pretty clearly performing less well than the second-generation teams. The hallmark of these newer teams is a bigger emphasis on team coordination and joint performance, and the attitudes toward these sorts of things are much more productive.
this is also because the NA scene (and lesser extend EU scene) in both starcraft and lol quickly becomes the old boys club. either through personal friendships or being a popular personality players who are objectively worse can take months or years to fall out of the competitive scene. theres no competition for position in the team so theres no direct need to improve, when most earnings arent from prize money.
the korean sc1 scene also clearly leads the way in this sense. although you wont be kicked off a team when your in a slump (in proleague) you will be benched and not sent out to play. teams consist of +10 players for 5 player series. this causes internal pressure and competition to always improve.
clg is currently searching for a b team (or has one lined up idk) but what they should be searching for is 5 subs. then through internal scrims they can asses who is in form and who works well together, just like any other sports team. this fear of getting benched leading to a bench stigma (rather than a performance stigma) is hurting the teams.
none of this will happen though, the same old crap will happen again. the teams will become less and less relevant, which in the short term wont hurt them, when they are no longer competing in any meaningful league they will finally lose their sponsorships and retire from gaming with nothing. or they will wait for lol2 and do the same thing again.
On May 14 2012 05:18 HazMat wrote:
^
Look at Dignitas. They're got great synergy when it comes to joking around and whatnot.
holy fanboi batman :D
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Is there going to be an NA team playing in anything tonight?
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On May 14 2012 05:27 turdburgler wrote:
none of this will happen though, the same old crap will happen again. the teams will become less and less relevant, which in the short term wont hurt them, when they are no longer competing in any meaningful league they will finally lose their sponsorships and retire from gaming with nothing. or they will wait for lol2 and do the same thing again.
Honestly TSM and CLG are pretty set. Even if their original teams start to fall off, they are - and will be (as long as they keep improving and evolving) the two major LoL platforms/websites. I mean even now they are on the path to become major gaming organisations with already adding other teams under their roster, hosting their own tournaments etc. I mean fuck, CLG has already branched out to other games and added a Dota2 team.
Actually, this is how most of the ancient and established gaming organisations/teams got started. with LoL's crazy boom the whole thing is just going on much faster. Although I forsee a brighter future for CLG since Hotshot is honestly a much, much smarter business person than Regi and seems to be content with soley running CLG in the future.
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I'm trying to learn AD carry in low elo solo queue ranked (954 elo atm) and I have some questions (sorry if these seem stupid):
1. Is there anyway to convince my team to let me farm? I notice that after laning ends my CS falls off in comparison to the enemy AD. Everyone on my team selfishly competes for all the CS and I end up underfarmed. When I mention something to my teammates about needing farm they usually just have some insult for me.
2. In relation to the previous question, how do I know when it's okay to split off from the group and farm another lane? I'm afraid to leave my team and farm another lane for fear of an engage happening without me and don't want to get chewed out for not showing up to a fight.
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On May 14 2012 05:40 HazMat wrote:
Is there going to be an NA team playing in anything tonight?
I believe CLG and Epik play in the RoG invitational sometime today or tonight. Not certain though.
On May 14 2012 05:46 Ferrose wrote:
I'm trying to learn AD carry in low elo solo queue ranked (954 elo atm) and I have some questions (sorry if these seem stupid):
1. Is there anyway to convince my team to let me farm? I notice that after laning ends my CS falls off in comparison to the enemy AD. Everyone on my team selfishly competes for all the CS and I end up underfarmed. When I mention something to my teammates about needing farm they usually just have some insult for me.
2. In relation to the previous question, how do I know when it's okay to split off from the group and farm another lane? I'm afraid to leave my team and farm another lane for fear of an engage happening without me and don't want to get chewed out for not showing up to a fight.
After lane phase you should leave your team only if doing so won't cause issues. If you go botlane while the entire enemy is mia you could be signaling to the other team that it's an ideal time to go to baron for instance.
Basically just don't extend too far and you won't have to worry about being ganked. Pay attention to what lanes of yours are pushing because that means those lanes are gonna start pushing back towards your side and you should be prepare to get into position to farm them when they come close enough to your side of the map. Being near or at a lane in time to farm it is going to let you be ready to get CS before anyone else on your team can react to it. It also helps if you're playing an AD who can wave clear really fast like Corki, Graves, or Varus.
In my experience asking your team to let you CS won't do shit. In solo queue everyone wants to get farmed and carry, even if someone on their team will be more beneficial to the team by getting it. You just have to be where the farm is going to be before it gets there so that you can get it for yourself. Play really selfish with getting CS as AD carry.
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in regards to 2: you have to have a feeling for how stupid your team is. if your team is composed of bricks it wont matter how many times you ping or spam in capslock, they'll get engaged 5v4 without you and you lose so you have to be there. I know it's frustrating to lose out on farm and theoretically do the wrong thing but it's still better than losing because your team got engaged 5v4.
basically the rule of thumb for soloqueue is if you can't convince your team to do the right thing you have to do what they want, even if it is the wrong thing to do.
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On May 14 2012 04:45 TheYango wrote:
In addition to practicing issues for NA teams, which I've discussed at length already, I think NA LoL is sort of stopped up at a point in the evolution of it's teams.
The first generation of major competitive LoL teams are, inevitably, built from solo queue players. There's no infrastructure for team-building, so essentially, teams like CLG and TSM came into existence because players who played together on solo queue decided to play together. There was very little discussion of teamplay or attitudes in the formation of those teams, mostly because there really couldn't be any at that stage.
The problem is, NA LoL hasn't really gotten PAST this stage. The major teams that came into being in this phase (TSM, CLG) all for the most part got their lineups in that early phase, and have just stuck with it. The toxic anti-teamplay attitudes that pervade certain members of those teams (which have been discussed at length here) have continued to impede those teams' development. And they ARE impeding their development. Any successful tournament results happen IN SPITE of things like CLG's bickering.
On the other hand, we look at the major EU teams and see that CLG.Eu and M5 are pretty clearly second-generation teams. The first-generation giants like Fnatic and SK are still around but they're pretty clearly performing less well than the second-generation teams. The hallmark of these newer teams is a bigger emphasis on team coordination and joint performance, and the attitudes toward these sorts of things are much more productive.
SK are by no means a 1 gen team. In fact the only eu big gen 1 team is Fnatic. I also don't understand why being a gen 1 team is a disadvantage if you look you see Regi and Sushei which are very individual focused players but froggen and wickd are the same way its just that pete, krepo and snoppeh are not in TSM oddone and xspecial are very team focused its just that when 2 people are that it doesn't show as well.
IMO the big gen shift always happens once players start into an established scene. That is when you see huge shifts in gameplay.
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On May 14 2012 05:40 Woony wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2012 05:27 turdburgler wrote:
none of this will happen though, the same old crap will happen again. the teams will become less and less relevant, which in the short term wont hurt them, when they are no longer competing in any meaningful league they will finally lose their sponsorships and retire from gaming with nothing. or they will wait for lol2 and do the same thing again. Honestly TSM and CLG are pretty set. Even if their original teams start to fall off, they are - and will be (as long as they keep improving and evolving) the two major LoL platforms/websites. I mean even now they are on the path to become major gaming organisations with already adding other teams under their roster, hosting their own tournaments etc. I mean fuck, CLG has already branched out to other games and added a Dota2 team. Actually, this is how most of the ancient and established gaming organisations/teams got started. with LoL's crazy boom the whole thing is just going on much faster. Although I forsee a brighter future for CLG since Hotshot is honestly a much, much smarter business person than Regi and seems to be content with soley running CLG in the future.
i wont disagree that these are both good calls in terms of running a business but them being major english speaking lol platforms wont mean as much if western lol goes the way of western broodwar.
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On May 14 2012 05:56 turdburgler wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2012 05:40 Woony wrote:On May 14 2012 05:27 turdburgler wrote:
none of this will happen though, the same old crap will happen again. the teams will become less and less relevant, which in the short term wont hurt them, when they are no longer competing in any meaningful league they will finally lose their sponsorships and retire from gaming with nothing. or they will wait for lol2 and do the same thing again. Honestly TSM and CLG are pretty set. Even if their original teams start to fall off, they are - and will be (as long as they keep improving and evolving) the two major LoL platforms/websites. I mean even now they are on the path to become major gaming organisations with already adding other teams under their roster, hosting their own tournaments etc. I mean fuck, CLG has already branched out to other games and added a Dota2 team. Actually, this is how most of the ancient and established gaming organisations/teams got started. with LoL's crazy boom the whole thing is just going on much faster. Although I forsee a brighter future for CLG since Hotshot is honestly a much, much smarter business person than Regi and seems to be content with soley running CLG in the future. i wont disagree that these are both good calls in terms of running a business but them being major english speaking lol platforms wont mean as much if western lol goes the way of western broodwar.
oh come on, really. as i've said before, western broodwar happend because literally everbody in the west stopped playing BW as soon as wc3 came out. LoL is currently one, if not soon THE most popular online game in the west. It's hard to predict where LoL is going to be in 5 years but for now it's not going to give away the top spot for a pretty long time.
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On May 14 2012 05:56 turdburgler wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2012 05:40 Woony wrote:On May 14 2012 05:27 turdburgler wrote:
none of this will happen though, the same old crap will happen again. the teams will become less and less relevant, which in the short term wont hurt them, when they are no longer competing in any meaningful league they will finally lose their sponsorships and retire from gaming with nothing. or they will wait for lol2 and do the same thing again. Honestly TSM and CLG are pretty set. Even if their original teams start to fall off, they are - and will be (as long as they keep improving and evolving) the two major LoL platforms/websites. I mean even now they are on the path to become major gaming organisations with already adding other teams under their roster, hosting their own tournaments etc. I mean fuck, CLG has already branched out to other games and added a Dota2 team. Actually, this is how most of the ancient and established gaming organisations/teams got started. with LoL's crazy boom the whole thing is just going on much faster. Although I forsee a brighter future for CLG since Hotshot is honestly a much, much smarter business person than Regi and seems to be content with soley running CLG in the future. i wont disagree that these are both good calls in terms of running a business but them being major english speaking lol platforms wont mean as much if western lol goes the way of western broodwar.
CLG also picked up a DotA2 team. I'm pretty sure Hotshot is trying to set CLG up to be a major PC eSports company so that when he's done playing LoL he can just do eSports shit for the rest of his life even if he isn't a player. Regi might be able to do the same thing with TSM but I don't think it's as likely to happen because I feel like Regi much prefers being a player to running a business.
Just look at CLG's staff. I think it's also interesting that CLG is creating a B team. I watched State of the League for the first time in months because it had Double and Hotshot talking about the B team they're forming. They're really trying to get people who will work well together rather than just the most talented players. Wouldn't be surprised if their B team ends up surpassing their main team honestly.
For example, the only semi-confirmed B team member is Lapaka and they want him because of the fact that he's pretty laid back and will listen to criticism. The fact that he's also really good at jungling certainly helps but they seemed more interested in his personality.
Also, even if LoL goes the way of Brood War that won't mean a big site like CLGaming or Solomid is going to die. If that was true TeamLiquid wouldn't exist right now lol.
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Bloodwater gonna be CLG b support
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On May 14 2012 05:46 Ferrose wrote:
I'm trying to learn AD carry in low elo solo queue ranked (954 elo atm) and I have some questions (sorry if these seem stupid):
1. Is there anyway to convince my team to let me farm? I notice that after laning ends my CS falls off in comparison to the enemy AD. Everyone on my team selfishly competes for all the CS and I end up underfarmed. When I mention something to my teammates about needing farm they usually just have some insult for me.
2. In relation to the previous question, how do I know when it's okay to split off from the group and farm another lane? I'm afraid to leave my team and farm another lane for fear of an engage happening without me and don't want to get chewed out for not showing up to a fight.
1. Keep track of when there are massive waves. You can kind of start telling kind of early when certain lanes are going to push. If you can't get there fast enough, farm some jungle. Basically...map awareness Iguess.
2. Same idea. You want to keep map control and awareness. Even as an AD, I always buy wards with my support because I don't trust my support to ward properly, and even if I have a reliable support, I like buying the extra wards to help him/her out.
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On May 14 2012 06:00 Woony wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2012 05:56 turdburgler wrote:On May 14 2012 05:40 Woony wrote:On May 14 2012 05:27 turdburgler wrote:
none of this will happen though, the same old crap will happen again. the teams will become less and less relevant, which in the short term wont hurt them, when they are no longer competing in any meaningful league they will finally lose their sponsorships and retire from gaming with nothing. or they will wait for lol2 and do the same thing again. Honestly TSM and CLG are pretty set. Even if their original teams start to fall off, they are - and will be (as long as they keep improving and evolving) the two major LoL platforms/websites. I mean even now they are on the path to become major gaming organisations with already adding other teams under their roster, hosting their own tournaments etc. I mean fuck, CLG has already branched out to other games and added a Dota2 team. Actually, this is how most of the ancient and established gaming organisations/teams got started. with LoL's crazy boom the whole thing is just going on much faster. Although I forsee a brighter future for CLG since Hotshot is honestly a much, much smarter business person than Regi and seems to be content with soley running CLG in the future. i wont disagree that these are both good calls in terms of running a business but them being major english speaking lol platforms wont mean as much if western lol goes the way of western broodwar. oh come on, really. as i've said before, western broodwar happend because literally everbody in the west stopped playing BW as soon as wc3 came out. LoL is currently one, if not soon THE most popular online game in the west. It's hard to predict where LoL is going to be in 5 years but for now it's not going to give away the top spot for a pretty long time.
korea took over bw 2 years before wc3 came out
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When I heard about CLGeu I thought they were the "2nd" team for CLG. How is the dynamic between the two CLG teams?
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They don't play on the same server??
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EPT
