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On April 24 2012 06:23 Ferrose wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 06:11 Vaporized wrote:
anyone else been playing hec lately?
ive been jungling him the last few days with fairly good results. i think hec needs some early game love, but late game holy shit he is so beast and such a blast to play. i go philo hog mercs triforce PD PD. games havent really gotten past that point, but i would get IE next and Ghostblade/shurelias if necessary. i might try a spirit visage or some life steal to synergize with the already pretty nice sustain from w.
westrice does the same build on hec top lane but he gets 3 gp/5 items first. maybe i should try that. 2 seems like enough tho. I've been having success just playing as an initiating tank. Level W first and go like Philo/HoG (if you get fed get a Sheen early for some burst) then Spirit Visage and Reverie and Randuin's and you'll be at the CDR cap with 21 def. The point is to take advantage of W. Use ult to separate the enemy team then press W to heal back up after they blow their spells on you. He's kinda like Skarner for me. Hecarim has a stronger initiation I think, but Skarner has the better follow up. After using ult Skarner can at least permaslow bruisers and help his carries kite them. After ulting Hecarim has pretty much nothing to make you focus him; you can pretty much just run past him because he has no peeling ability unless he saves his E to knock people away. I tried building damage on Hecarim and doing something similar to what Westrice and Darien tried but I could never get it to work. I've been doing a lot better just building like Skarner but without the attack speed.
interesting idea. i might have to try that too (cdr capped w). with spirit visage do u literally heal back up to full from ~half life? like on ryze with wota and ult u can heal back to full from almost dead if there are enough creeps around. i have never got SV on hec but in theory it seems good.
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thanks so far for all the answers.
@universalsnip
wow, that are really words of immense wisdom. will try that 100%.
@vaporized
never tried sejuani, but maybe will take a look at her. dont like skarners kit at all. playing him is just not fun for me personally.
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if you're looking for more of a damage threat than udyr i think nocturne is probably your best bet, he might have the best combination of ganking and clear speed in the jungle and if someone on the other team gets out of position he has an amazing initiation for fights that gives your teammates a huge audio and visual cue to attack.
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On April 24 2012 06:42 Vaporized wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 06:23 Ferrose wrote:On April 24 2012 06:11 Vaporized wrote:
anyone else been playing hec lately?
ive been jungling him the last few days with fairly good results. i think hec needs some early game love, but late game holy shit he is so beast and such a blast to play. i go philo hog mercs triforce PD PD. games havent really gotten past that point, but i would get IE next and Ghostblade/shurelias if necessary. i might try a spirit visage or some life steal to synergize with the already pretty nice sustain from w.
westrice does the same build on hec top lane but he gets 3 gp/5 items first. maybe i should try that. 2 seems like enough tho. I've been having success just playing as an initiating tank. Level W first and go like Philo/HoG (if you get fed get a Sheen early for some burst) then Spirit Visage and Reverie and Randuin's and you'll be at the CDR cap with 21 def. The point is to take advantage of W. Use ult to separate the enemy team then press W to heal back up after they blow their spells on you. He's kinda like Skarner for me. Hecarim has a stronger initiation I think, but Skarner has the better follow up. After using ult Skarner can at least permaslow bruisers and help his carries kite them. After ulting Hecarim has pretty much nothing to make you focus him; you can pretty much just run past him because he has no peeling ability unless he saves his E to knock people away. I tried building damage on Hecarim and doing something similar to what Westrice and Darien tried but I could never get it to work. I've been doing a lot better just building like Skarner but without the attack speed. interesting idea. i might have to try that too (cdr capped w). with spirit visage do u literally heal back up to full from ~half life? like on ryze with wota and ult u can heal back to full from almost dead if there are enough creeps around. i have never got SV on hec but in theory it seems good.
The healing isn't THAT ridiculous lol but if your whole team is wailing on people you can sustain yourself pretty long in fights.
Maybe not as long as someone like Mundo or Warwick, but it can be pretty troll.
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i didnt like skarner at first either. took me ~20 games before i realized how op he is. if u just absolutely dont like him then thats cool, but he is really strong, and once i figured out how i like to play him he became one of my favorite picks.
sejuani is a really interesting champ to me. i rarely (never?) see anyone else pick her but she is strong too. the permaslow combined with aoe stun and the flash move q allows you to do some pretty funny things. one thing to note about sejuani is that she is one of the weaker champs pre-6 but as the game goes on you just get stronger and stronger. your clear time the first time through the jungle is slow as molasses, but after that she is one of the fastest junglers imo. it took me ~20 games with sejuani too before i really understood what she is capable of. but she is very capable. and that ult is so good. the aoe is much larger then it probably should be, but dont tell anyone. i think i have the highest k/d/a ratio on sejauni then any other champ.
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On April 24 2012 06:42 zulu_nation8 wrote:
wtf V8 disbanded and aphromoo/unstoppable are on EG now?
Not sure if V8 disbanded but takashi is on 4not now.
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On April 24 2012 06:52 Ferrose wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 06:42 Vaporized wrote:On April 24 2012 06:23 Ferrose wrote:On April 24 2012 06:11 Vaporized wrote:
anyone else been playing hec lately?
ive been jungling him the last few days with fairly good results. i think hec needs some early game love, but late game holy shit he is so beast and such a blast to play. i go philo hog mercs triforce PD PD. games havent really gotten past that point, but i would get IE next and Ghostblade/shurelias if necessary. i might try a spirit visage or some life steal to synergize with the already pretty nice sustain from w.
westrice does the same build on hec top lane but he gets 3 gp/5 items first. maybe i should try that. 2 seems like enough tho. I've been having success just playing as an initiating tank. Level W first and go like Philo/HoG (if you get fed get a Sheen early for some burst) then Spirit Visage and Reverie and Randuin's and you'll be at the CDR cap with 21 def. The point is to take advantage of W. Use ult to separate the enemy team then press W to heal back up after they blow their spells on you. He's kinda like Skarner for me. Hecarim has a stronger initiation I think, but Skarner has the better follow up. After using ult Skarner can at least permaslow bruisers and help his carries kite them. After ulting Hecarim has pretty much nothing to make you focus him; you can pretty much just run past him because he has no peeling ability unless he saves his E to knock people away. I tried building damage on Hecarim and doing something similar to what Westrice and Darien tried but I could never get it to work. I've been doing a lot better just building like Skarner but without the attack speed. interesting idea. i might have to try that too (cdr capped w). with spirit visage do u literally heal back up to full from ~half life? like on ryze with wota and ult u can heal back to full from almost dead if there are enough creeps around. i have never got SV on hec but in theory it seems good. The healing isn't THAT ridiculous lol but if your whole team is wailing on people you can sustain yourself pretty long in fights. Maybe not as long as someone like Mundo or Warwick, but it can be pretty troll.
haha thanks for the info.
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I am a few pages late for the elo hell discussion, but I thought I would throw out my perspective. I have done so a couple times before but never in the GD.
First off, lets put out a couple assumptions:
- There is greater variance in a low elo player's performance from game to game compared to a higher elo player.
+ Show Spoiler +This variance can manifest in things like, when a low elo player gets behind in lane he/she doesn't know how to adjust their play accordingly and hence feed harder. Or if they have a smaller pool of champions that they play well and
perform much worse when they can't pick one of those champs. It would also take into account disconnects and afkers which I would presume are more frequent in low elo.
I don't have access to riot's data but I am fairly confident the above assumption is easily supported/refuted. Surely disconnects can be tracked by elo as well as variance in kills/deaths per game as a proxy for performance. It could be the above assumption is off, but I am pretty sure it holds some weight.
- Low ELO players have fewer games played, on average, than high elo players
+ Show Spoiler +Fairly straight forward and quantifiable, hence not really an assumption except that I don't have actual data, so for my purposes it is an assumption.
Now lets say I built a simulation using the above assumptions. I assign a hundred thousand players a "true" elo and then match them up using Riot's matchmaking algorithm. Each game a player is assigned a performance according to a normal distribution with a mean set at their true elo and a variance assigned by elo bracket (higher elo with lower variance and low elo with higher variance, according to my first assumption) and maybe an alternate factor for randomly assigning disconnects with a greater chance for low elos. Additionally my high elo players are going to be playing more games on average.
We can easily predict that after enough iterations of this simulation, the players would be, on average, very close to their true elo. No, a high elo player won't win every game against low elo players if the randomization doesn't go their way but on average they will win most of their games until they get to the proper elo.
That being said, and this is where I think we uncover the true elo hell, I believe in our simulation there would be much greater variance around your true elo in low elo brackets compared to high elo brackets. This is because when all 5 players in your game have a higher variance surrounding each individual performace compared to high eloers, there is greater chance for you to lose a game in which your true elo is higher than the others on average. Additionally, even if an individual low elo player has played a lot of games (more than enough to be confident that they are at or near their true elo) the lower number of games on average of your oppenents results in greater differences between your teammates/opponents true and current ELO.
Add in the effect of the constant addition of new players freshly hitting level 30 and you have another layer of uncertainty surrounding game to game performance as those player's are travelling towards their true elo (i.e. I am an ~1250 player, but jumped up to 1400s early in my ranked games, then dropped to 1100 very quickly after a few losses, then eventually settled at 1250)
TL;DR
All this to say, ELO hell doesn't exist in the way people claim it does (you are high elo but are "stuck" in low elo), but I believe there is greater potential for difference between true ELO and currently displayed for people in lower elo due to greater variance in game to game performance along with fewer games played on average.
I tried to really pare down this explanation since the post is getting so long, but feel free to point out errors or ask questions.
Also, no I didn't put a lot of work into this. This is more so outlining how to think about ELO from a mathematical perspective.
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On April 24 2012 06:23 Ferrose wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 06:11 Vaporized wrote:
anyone else been playing hec lately?
ive been jungling him the last few days with fairly good results. i think hec needs some early game love, but late game holy shit he is so beast and such a blast to play. i go philo hog mercs triforce PD PD. games havent really gotten past that point, but i would get IE next and Ghostblade/shurelias if necessary. i might try a spirit visage or some life steal to synergize with the already pretty nice sustain from w.
westrice does the same build on hec top lane but he gets 3 gp/5 items first. maybe i should try that. 2 seems like enough tho. I've been having success just playing as an initiating tank. Level W first and go like Philo/HoG (if you get fed get a Sheen early for some burst) then Spirit Visage and Reverie and Randuin's and you'll be at the CDR cap with 21 def. The point is to take advantage of W. Use ult to separate the enemy team then press W to heal back up after they blow their spells on you. He's kinda like Skarner for me. Hecarim has a stronger initiation I think, but Skarner has the better follow up. After using ult Skarner can at least permaslow bruisers and help his carries kite them. After ulting Hecarim has pretty much nothing to make you focus him; you can pretty much just run past him because he has no peeling ability unless he saves his E to knock people away. I tried building damage on Hecarim and doing something similar to what Westrice and Darien tried but I could never get it to work. I've been doing a lot better just building like Skarner but without the attack speed.
For a damage build I've been going Philo -> Avarice -> Brutalizer -> Hexdrinker -> Tanky Item (e.g. Aegis, GA) while maxing Q first. It's worked absurdly well for me thus far.
I don't like leveling W first on Hecarim because you do no damage. 260 damage over 4 seconds on a 14 second cooldown is pretty awful. 10% damage to healing is plenty of tank for the early game. I'd only go W first if I was literally the only tanky champion on the team, and I wouldn't build pure tank even then because without damage you're worthless beyond you ult.
On April 24 2012 06:24 turdburgler wrote:
junglers dont tend to bring poke. just play volibear and flip tables all day.
Unless you're Mundo!
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On April 24 2012 06:18 shrinkmaster wrote:
hm i'm looking for a new jungler to learn.
currently i'm playing udyr in like 99% of the games i get to jungle.
which would you guys say is the jungler with the highest late game presence. udyr is pretty good, but if your not fed you only got your tankiness and nothing more.
fed udyr is great, because you can afford tank items and damage items. but if the game is pretty passive and you only got normal farm and nothing more, i feel that he is not such a huge threat in the late game at the level i play.
at my level people just dont appreciate a great tank. people are so afraid to commit after the enemie team blows half their cooldowns on me that i often do not know how to force my team into a beneficial fight.
maybe someone with a high amout of poke damage would be good?
Haha it's so frustrating to have to engage with udyr sometimes. I had my team with no better iniator than I with udyr and no real poke or heal, the ennemy tf and ez are slowly draining our life. Took me like 5 min to realise that I have to engage because mates can't really harass back and don't dodge lots of skillshots. So I run bear, omen into both ez & tf, getting tf to half hp, this teamfight is won, they're slowed for 3 sec! Ah no their mundo with just boots warmog & chaimail made my whole team go back while the other 4 get me.
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I just hate to max Q first because it's pretty underwhelming to me. I mainly just use Q to setup Sheen procs : /
And I max W because I play like I AM the tank, especially in jungle. I haven't gotten to play him solo top though so if I do get to, I'll try your build.
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On April 24 2012 07:04 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 06:23 Ferrose wrote:On April 24 2012 06:11 Vaporized wrote:
anyone else been playing hec lately?
ive been jungling him the last few days with fairly good results. i think hec needs some early game love, but late game holy shit he is so beast and such a blast to play. i go philo hog mercs triforce PD PD. games havent really gotten past that point, but i would get IE next and Ghostblade/shurelias if necessary. i might try a spirit visage or some life steal to synergize with the already pretty nice sustain from w.
westrice does the same build on hec top lane but he gets 3 gp/5 items first. maybe i should try that. 2 seems like enough tho. I've been having success just playing as an initiating tank. Level W first and go like Philo/HoG (if you get fed get a Sheen early for some burst) then Spirit Visage and Reverie and Randuin's and you'll be at the CDR cap with 21 def. The point is to take advantage of W. Use ult to separate the enemy team then press W to heal back up after they blow their spells on you. He's kinda like Skarner for me. Hecarim has a stronger initiation I think, but Skarner has the better follow up. After using ult Skarner can at least permaslow bruisers and help his carries kite them. After ulting Hecarim has pretty much nothing to make you focus him; you can pretty much just run past him because he has no peeling ability unless he saves his E to knock people away. I tried building damage on Hecarim and doing something similar to what Westrice and Darien tried but I could never get it to work. I've been doing a lot better just building like Skarner but without the attack speed. For a damage build I've been going Philo -> Avarice -> Brutalizer -> Hexdrinker -> Tanky Item (e.g. Aegis, GA) while maxing Q first. It's worked absurdly well for me thus far. I don't like leveling W first on Hecarim because you do no damage. 260 damage over 4 seconds on a 14 second cooldown is pretty awful. 10% damage to healing is plenty of tank for the early game. I'd only go W first if I was literally the only tanky champion on the team, and I wouldn't build pure tank even then because without damage you're worthless beyond you ult. Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 06:24 turdburgler wrote:
junglers dont tend to bring poke. just play volibear and flip tables all day. Unless you're Mundo!
think ill try your damage build next. i feel like a sheen mixed in would really increase your overall dps tho.
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I'd still just like them to start new people at a lower Elo. Never did understand why you start people near the top 25% mark rather than near the 50% mark.
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Just queue'd with chu8 MLIA
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On April 24 2012 07:15 Vaporized wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 07:04 Seuss wrote:On April 24 2012 06:23 Ferrose wrote:On April 24 2012 06:11 Vaporized wrote:
anyone else been playing hec lately?
ive been jungling him the last few days with fairly good results. i think hec needs some early game love, but late game holy shit he is so beast and such a blast to play. i go philo hog mercs triforce PD PD. games havent really gotten past that point, but i would get IE next and Ghostblade/shurelias if necessary. i might try a spirit visage or some life steal to synergize with the already pretty nice sustain from w.
westrice does the same build on hec top lane but he gets 3 gp/5 items first. maybe i should try that. 2 seems like enough tho. I've been having success just playing as an initiating tank. Level W first and go like Philo/HoG (if you get fed get a Sheen early for some burst) then Spirit Visage and Reverie and Randuin's and you'll be at the CDR cap with 21 def. The point is to take advantage of W. Use ult to separate the enemy team then press W to heal back up after they blow their spells on you. He's kinda like Skarner for me. Hecarim has a stronger initiation I think, but Skarner has the better follow up. After using ult Skarner can at least permaslow bruisers and help his carries kite them. After ulting Hecarim has pretty much nothing to make you focus him; you can pretty much just run past him because he has no peeling ability unless he saves his E to knock people away. I tried building damage on Hecarim and doing something similar to what Westrice and Darien tried but I could never get it to work. I've been doing a lot better just building like Skarner but without the attack speed. For a damage build I've been going Philo -> Avarice -> Brutalizer -> Hexdrinker -> Tanky Item (e.g. Aegis, GA) while maxing Q first. It's worked absurdly well for me thus far. I don't like leveling W first on Hecarim because you do no damage. 260 damage over 4 seconds on a 14 second cooldown is pretty awful. 10% damage to healing is plenty of tank for the early game. I'd only go W first if I was literally the only tanky champion on the team, and I wouldn't build pure tank even then because without damage you're worthless beyond you ult. On April 24 2012 06:24 turdburgler wrote:
junglers dont tend to bring poke. just play volibear and flip tables all day. Unless you're Mundo! think ill try your damage build next. i feel like a sheen mixed in would really increase your overall dps tho.
The problem with mixing in Sheen is that by the time you've bought all the items I've listed you're better off finishing Ghostblade, Shurelya's and Maw than starting on Trinity. If you try to sandwich Sheen in there you're delaying either a better damage item or a critical defense item.
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I just think there is only one stats which can't increase damages : number of deaths. Kills & assists from stackable item, AP, AD, AS obvious, armor malph if I remember correctly, mres for galio, hp for some champs/atma, mana for ryze, energy for rumble, ms for heca. They will make a champ who has increased damages from having many deaths from ennemy champions (don't abuse tower dive xD).
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A quick question, can someone please tell me how Mundo's W interacts with tenacity? I am a bit confused as too why most people don't build mercs on him, as they do with other tanks. Does it not stack?
I probably doesn't stack additively, because that would be just OP, but even multiplicative stacking would make you pretty resistant against any CC, which as a tank is usually a good thing.
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They stack multiplicatively, which means Merc's + W + Juggernaut = ~62% reduction on CC.
However, because Mundo is built tanky as all hell CC isn't usually his primary concern. So depending on the situation Tabi or some other boots are better options.
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I grab mercs on mundo for the mr, not the CC reduc. I find its easier to get armor than mr on him.
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On April 24 2012 08:35 Two_DoWn wrote:
I grab mercs on mundo for the mr, not the CC reduc. I find its easier to get armor than mr on him.
that's pretty much true for any champ, hence the popularity of merc on beefy things that dont' really need the cc reduc.
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EPT
