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Same rules apply, per usual. Please use the appropriate threads (QQ, Brag, Champion, etc) whenever appropriate. Keep the resident Banling content.
Thanks. Happy Gaming. |
On March 05 2012 22:38 Chiharu Harukaze wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2012 20:17 BlueSpace wrote:
Did any of the LoL developers actually ever made some statements of why certain mechanics were not ported into LoL? I'm just curious from a design point of view. They obviously wanted to create a different gameplay but apart from that, did they ever got more specific? LoL uses fundamentally different design philosophies compared to DotA. I've talked about Zileas' Rules of Game Design before, which is one of the major philosophies the Riot Team uses. One important thing that the design team really emphasised was "Don't put in arbitrary mechanics just because you can." This in particular is why denying isn't in LoL. Denying was a by product of the WC3 engine. However, just because you can do something doesn't mean you should put it in. Denying is counter-intuitive, and the team felt it wasn't a fun mechanic. Sure, you can create depth from lane interactions, etc. However, it feels like an arbitrary wall you put in just to create complexity. It's like playing Tennis with lead shoes and super bouncy balls. Sure, the game is now more "complex and deep". But what have you sacrificed to do so? Another thing with LoL is that it is designed to cater to a wider audience than DotA was. Sure, you have to simplify things. Does that matter though? Sure, part of your target audience will be very bad. Again, is that necessarily a bad thing though? Good games don't have to be a massive complex web of interactions that only the absolute experts understand. Games just have to be as complex as they need to be to create meaningful interactions between players. If you can create meaningful interactions through arbitrary mechanical complexity or simple but subtle processes, it's generally preferable to keep it simple. Now that doesn't mean you can't have really complex and mechanically difficult tasks in games, far from it. But if it doesn't suit your purpose, then don't do it. For instance, LoL has the brush mechanics, as well as Summoner Spells. Both are simple concepts that change the dynamic of the laning phase that introduce complexity and interaction in their own way. In the same manner, the Agi/Str/Int system of DotA was simplified into AP and AD. Again, they changed mechanics where they felt it wasn't necessary to keep them. Does this make LoL a bad game for dumbing it down, or DotA a bad game for having silly arbitrary mechanics that were a by-product of the WC3 engine? No. They're different games that have decided to focus on different aspects and need to be treated as such.
Was Dotas "Design Philosophy" ever actually explained anywhere? I mean with Lol we get the stated goals like "stuff needs to be more fun to play as/with than unfun to play against/with". (The key reasone Lol doesn´t need -nohelp).
Regarding Viktor: the core is fine and he can deal TONS of AOE damage. The issue is really that the passive feels more like a burden than a privilege. The hexcore needs to be an item other champions would buy if they could.
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im not sure where i stand on that though. people are ok with many heroes not scaling well into the late game due to either skill set or bad ratios. if vicktors ratios are high enough (i dont know if they are) he could easily be balanced around not needing 6 traditional items. so i dont think the 5 slot is a huge problem by itself, more a symptom of other problems.
i dont think he is anywhere near as bad as people thought he was on release either. he has some really strong poke and when you gank his lane he can bring a lot of burst and control
Viktor's ratios are 1.85 upfront (2.06 if you include Death Augment burn) plus .25/second for Chaos Storm effect, so potentially 3.6. For comparison, Annie's is 2.1 upfront.
And yes, Viktor is powerful. As in, outlaning the 2/0 Double Buff at Eight Minutes Swain who forced a switch after doing terrible things to Olaf powerful. Might have been a favorable match-up or over-confidence on my part, but by no means is Viktor a pushover.
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On March 06 2012 01:54 Unentschieden wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2012 22:38 Chiharu Harukaze wrote:On March 05 2012 20:17 BlueSpace wrote:
Did any of the LoL developers actually ever made some statements of why certain mechanics were not ported into LoL? I'm just curious from a design point of view. They obviously wanted to create a different gameplay but apart from that, did they ever got more specific? LoL uses fundamentally different design philosophies compared to DotA. I've talked about Zileas' Rules of Game Design before, which is one of the major philosophies the Riot Team uses. One important thing that the design team really emphasised was "Don't put in arbitrary mechanics just because you can." This in particular is why denying isn't in LoL. Denying was a by product of the WC3 engine. However, just because you can do something doesn't mean you should put it in. Denying is counter-intuitive, and the team felt it wasn't a fun mechanic. Sure, you can create depth from lane interactions, etc. However, it feels like an arbitrary wall you put in just to create complexity. It's like playing Tennis with lead shoes and super bouncy balls. Sure, the game is now more "complex and deep". But what have you sacrificed to do so? Another thing with LoL is that it is designed to cater to a wider audience than DotA was. Sure, you have to simplify things. Does that matter though? Sure, part of your target audience will be very bad. Again, is that necessarily a bad thing though? Good games don't have to be a massive complex web of interactions that only the absolute experts understand. Games just have to be as complex as they need to be to create meaningful interactions between players. If you can create meaningful interactions through arbitrary mechanical complexity or simple but subtle processes, it's generally preferable to keep it simple. Now that doesn't mean you can't have really complex and mechanically difficult tasks in games, far from it. But if it doesn't suit your purpose, then don't do it. For instance, LoL has the brush mechanics, as well as Summoner Spells. Both are simple concepts that change the dynamic of the laning phase that introduce complexity and interaction in their own way. In the same manner, the Agi/Str/Int system of DotA was simplified into AP and AD. Again, they changed mechanics where they felt it wasn't necessary to keep them. Does this make LoL a bad game for dumbing it down, or DotA a bad game for having silly arbitrary mechanics that were a by-product of the WC3 engine? No. They're different games that have decided to focus on different aspects and need to be treated as such. Was Dotas "Design Philosophy" ever actually explained anywhere? I mean with Lol we get the stated goals like "stuff needs to be more fun to play as/with than unfun to play against/with". (The key reasone Lol doesn´t need -nohelp). Regarding Viktor: the core is fine and he can deal TONS of AOE damage. The issue is really that the passive feels more like a burden than a privilege. The hexcore needs to be an item other champions would buy if they could.
I think a LOT would be fixed for Viktor if they added a second stage of Hexcore to be upgradeable for 1000 that either could combine 2 hexcores or buff a single one even more. Something like that. It's true that in the lategame it feels just like a 7 stack mejais to me.
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They could just make the hexcore scale with time like a Rod of Ages.
Still don't understand how you can think 100 AP and 30% dmg on your deathray is underwhelming though. If I could buy an item that gave 100 AP and would increase the dmg of my Q by 30% I'd buy it.
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The problem is that his skills currently define him much more than his passive (I'd say his E for most people, but for me past laning phase it's his ult, goddamn cloud eating 'em all up squishies). His full duration ult is truly scary for anyone than can't get out of it (esp. with a rylai on Viktor), and didn't need the recent buff, so if they want to play around his power balance, I guess a good take on hit would be to try and transfer his impact on the game from those spells to his passive.
What they did at realease is that he had kinda weak stats because of how he'd be above average on those granted by the chosen augment. I'm not against this train of thought but they overly did it. Nerfing the ratio on E and granting a greater boost on it when choosing the death augment would a possibility, for example.
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In dota you could switch what your boots modified. I think vik should be the same 
It'd make him more versatile in one game rather than one champion that's actually a subset of 3 champions.
And to the guy mentioning AP->AD yi... that shit sounds scary D: except I don't really think AP yi's power curve is the same as sion's. I could be wrong.
I want to experiment with AP yi a bit too.
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My favourite solution would be to give the hexcore an active.
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On March 06 2012 02:45 Unentschieden wrote:
My favourite solution would be to give the hexcore an active.
Type-switch active with 10s cd.
DO IT.
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So according to Korean site it's Galio,Graves, LB, Soraka, Shen, Skarner, Ahri, WW, Katarina and Kog free week rotation after tonight.
EDIT: Damn Ferrose faster than me. :D
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We actually had the discussion last week where it was pointed out by Teut that wriggles skarner is probably the build you want to go since the double gp10 is just so gimping for someone with good ratios.
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Shen, WW, Ahri? Interesting. Might test the two formers to see how they play out after the buffs, I need to bolster my top roster (and find the opportunity to practice, since even in normals grabbing mid is a hassle >.>).
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On March 06 2012 02:52 Two_DoWn wrote:We actually had the discussion last week where it was pointed out by Teut that wriggles skarner is probably the build you want to go since the double gp10 is just so gimping for someone with good ratios.
ap skarner is the shit im telling you.
tons of damage
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My problem is how to ban Shaco, Rammus, Ahri, LB and Shen this week XD
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On March 06 2012 02:52 Two_DoWn wrote:We actually had the discussion last week where it was pointed out by Teut that wriggles skarner is probably the build you want to go since the double gp10 is just so gimping for someone with good ratios.
How do you get by without the mana regen from Philo though?
And I always thought the point of Skarner was to Flash in, grab a squishy, then press W and activate Shurelya's and drag them away with 600 MSpd : /
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I used to play with a guy who would play Yi ap and then he would sell all his ap items and buy ad items at 20 minutes or something stupid like that. This guy also would start doran's shield on jungle ww. He was a bright one.
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On March 06 2012 02:54 Zhiroo wrote:
My problem is how to ban Shaco, Rammus, Ahri, LB and Shen this week XD
Rammus isnt like a fully ban-worthy hero over someone like shen and shaco (at least imo). LB can be counter picked, ahri is just a dumb champion. Either people will utterly fail or get massively fed and carry the game.
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On March 06 2012 02:56 Ferrose wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2012 02:52 Two_DoWn wrote:We actually had the discussion last week where it was pointed out by Teut that wriggles skarner is probably the build you want to go since the double gp10 is just so gimping for someone with good ratios. How do you get by without the mana regen from Philo though? And I always thought the point of Skarner was to Flash in, grab a squishy, then press W and activate Shurelya's and drag them away with 600 MSpd : /
Cuz the instant that ult runs out you are essentially 600 MS worth of dead weight. If you want lock down or reposition, why not get Ali, WW, Maokai, hell even Udyr. All of them bring more in various parts of the game than philo hog skarner does.
Instead you COULD go wriggles- hog (for a bit more tank) then triforce or mallet or wits and be tanky and KILL shit, all the while still doing that same locking down of a carry, only this time actually being useful afterwards.
*note I have yet to actually try this since I consider skarner to be almost entirely outclassed by any number of jungles when going the 2 gp10 build, and as such have yet to bring myself to test out a different build on him since I am so disgusted with him overall.*
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On March 06 2012 03:05 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2012 02:56 Ferrose wrote:On March 06 2012 02:52 Two_DoWn wrote:We actually had the discussion last week where it was pointed out by Teut that wriggles skarner is probably the build you want to go since the double gp10 is just so gimping for someone with good ratios. How do you get by without the mana regen from Philo though? And I always thought the point of Skarner was to Flash in, grab a squishy, then press W and activate Shurelya's and drag them away with 600 MSpd : / Cuz the instant that ult runs out you are essentially 600 MS worth of dead weight. If you want lock down or reposition, why not get Ali, WW, Maokai, hell even Udyr. All of them bring more in various parts of the game than philo hog skarner does. Instead you COULD go wriggles- hog (for a bit more tank) then triforce or mallet or wits and be tanky and KILL shit, all the while still doing that same locking down of a carry, only this time actually being useful afterwards. *note I have yet to actually try this since I consider skarner to be almost entirely outclassed by any number of jungles when going the 2 gp10 build, and as such have yet to bring myself to test out a different build on him since I am so disgusted with him overall.*
I used to do Wriggle's Skarner, but I've been favoring the GP10 for the last couple months, but after reading the discussion here I think I'm gonna have to try the Wriggle's path again.
Usually when I mention Wriggle's on forums people just swat it down and call it a waste of 1600 gold.
Edit: But still, how do you get over the mana cost nerf without Philo?
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Wriggles helps you clear camps faster too.
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EPT
