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Same rules apply, per usual. Please use the appropriate threads (QQ, Brag, Champion, etc) whenever appropriate. Keep the resident Banling content.
Thanks. Happy Gaming. |
On March 06 2012 04:33 Mogwai wrote:
frankly, I don't think you play enough skarner if you think getting a point in E at level 2 isn't worthwhile. the difference in your first clear speed and safety between E level 2 and W level 2 is huge.
also, I dunno why T_D's talking about skarner like he's a shitty ganker. skarner's an average mid lane ganker, but a fucking beast at ganking bot/top with that perma slow.
i camp lanes like a boss with skarner and that's why I like double g/10 into wit's end. he also uses reverie and omen very well so it's not like they're dead weight items either.
I'm talking about skarner like he's a shitty ganker because he IS a shitty ganker. Sure, if someone is horribly overextended in top he can kill them. But so can every other jungler in the game. Only most of them dont need to run at you to do it. Or have hard CC. But no, his gank is pretty abysmal pre 6. And before you say "but if you get there its a sure kill!" stop. If that was the criteria, WW with red would be the best gank in the game from level 2 on.
As for E, you are skilling a point you realistically CANNOT use for the remainder of the game so that you can use it on 3 camps while you have blue. Not worth it, esepcially when you consider that you can just chug a pot and get a head start on your absurd speed boost. Skill points are just as important to jungles as items are. You cant afford to waste them. E at level 2 is a waste of a point.
As for your last point, I think thats the difference between a top laner and a jungler. You know how devistating to a single lane camping can be. And I admit, it IS shitty for that lane. But if you try to do that against a competant jungler, you will be counterjungled out of relevance. Throwing away top to shut out the enemy jungle and ensure the other 2 lanes win is a trade I will make any day of the week, especially when you consider that a fed jungle is more than capable of filling the role that top lane takes late game, and all that camping will leave you underleveled.
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On March 06 2012 04:12 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2012 03:57 L wrote:On March 06 2012 03:05 Two_DoWn wrote:On March 06 2012 02:56 Ferrose wrote:On March 06 2012 02:52 Two_DoWn wrote:We actually had the discussion last week where it was pointed out by Teut that wriggles skarner is probably the build you want to go since the double gp10 is just so gimping for someone with good ratios. How do you get by without the mana regen from Philo though? And I always thought the point of Skarner was to Flash in, grab a squishy, then press W and activate Shurelya's and drag them away with 600 MSpd : / Cuz the instant that ult runs out you are essentially 600 MS worth of dead weight. If you want lock down or reposition, why not get Ali, WW, Maokai, hell even Udyr. All of them bring more in various parts of the game than philo hog skarner does. Instead you COULD go wriggles- hog (for a bit more tank) then triforce or mallet or wits and be tanky and KILL shit, all the while still doing that same locking down of a carry, only this time actually being useful afterwards. *note I have yet to actually try this since I consider skarner to be almost entirely outclassed by any number of jungles when going the 2 gp10 build, and as such have yet to bring myself to test out a different build on him since I am so disgusted with him overall.* Err, this is terrible advice. The real tradeoff between wriggles and philo/hog is purely dragon threat and buffjacking at level 7-9. If you can gank successfully because their lanes are susceptible to being ulted in the face, philo/hog keeps you full of mana and health for repeated ganks. If you can't repeatedly gank a lane, you'd do better getting wriggles and aggressively warding/stealing buffs. Wriggles represents a net speed increase on buffs and minigols, and does pretty much fuck all for wolves and wraiths. Philo/hog lets you flash dive towers earlier and lets you clear the non-minigols camps in jungles faster than a wriggles build. Wriggles does better running full W, but skarner actually clears significantly faster and healthier going QEQW and abusing fracture during the first blue buff. Most importantly, wriggles needs you in the jungle actively killing things to accrue value. Double GP/5 significantly decreases the cost of camping a lane that needs it, and of all the heros in the game that camp lanes, skarner is near the top of the pack. Turning top from a slight win to a complete blowout may significantly slow down your item progression if you're betting the farm on a triforce. . So TL;DR: Wriggles for counterjangles. Philohog for afkfarm into ult ganks. 1- We have already established that philo does absolutely nothing in terms of speeding up jungle because the mana regen just isnt enough to allow you to spam. So if you want to speed up your jungle, grab a wriggles. You simply wont be able to spam q on minicamps either way, so wriggles is strictly faster. 2- The only thing that philo has to offer in terms of repeatable ganks is health regen. Which you dont need if you have lifesteal and armor. So I can pull continued ganks just as well as a philo/hog skarner, especially when you consider that your downtime between ganks is going to be spent sitting around doing nothing while regening, while I will be healing while farming. 3- The only thing that slightly helps turret diving in the 2 gp10 build is the hog. Which you can still get with a wriggles. Even then, you are taking maybe 2 turret shots tops, so it doesnt actually help. 4- Never spec e until you have too. Its a noob trap and a waste of the level point. Q and W are strictly better at all phases of the game. 5- Gp10 does not help you gain levels, only gold. You NEED to be farming at all times as a jungle. Your first preference is always farm, ganking is secondary. Even if you are going a gank happy build (in which case why arent you playing a GOOD ganker like Maokai or Alistar) you still need levels. 6- As stated previously, double gp10 on skarner makes you dead weight lategame. Combined with your advice, you will be underfarmed, underleveled, and not even able to flash ult someone without dying. So, no.
with a philo i am able to use about 4 qs on wolfs and wraiths and a w, and as long as i have smite up for blue and red they will but a dent in my mana but far from force a back. the only times i find i have to i have to back for mana is after using w a bunch of times trying to intaite head on in a stand of or doing dragon.
i dont see how a double gp10 build leaves you as dead weight late game. gp10 weakens you in the short term but late game it makes you stronger. i never find myself underleveled as skarner going gp10. going pure tank can leave you dead wight late game but that is different from going gp10.
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On March 06 2012 04:33 Mogwai wrote:
frankly, I don't think you play enough skarner if you think getting a point in E at level 2 isn't worthwhile. the difference in your first clear speed and safety between E level 2 and W level 2 is huge.
also, I dunno why T_D's talking about skarner like he's a shitty ganker. skarner's an average mid lane ganker, but a fucking beast at ganking bot/top with that perma slow.
i camp lanes like a boss with skarner and that's why I like double g/10 into wit's end. he also uses reverie and omen very well so it's not like they're dead weight items either.
Skarners flash mid lane 6 gank is pretty sick as well.
I don't agree that he's a shitty ganker either. He's a shitty ganker if you want to gank to do damage, if you can flash after them you're killing ganks which may include diving a bit are strong.
Also without E my clearing is really safe, close to full hp all the time. I really like e, but when you're not getting blues I don't think its worth the mana. Higher levels E is beast though.
Also, skarner can charge his Q on creeps and move in the lane with W which is basically free WW E, it's not like he's a weaker ganker than ww pre 6. Red buff + Q is ridiculous slowing, you can run away frmo just red buff.
I mean, who do you consider good gankers? Lee sin and Maokai, I guess?
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TD - red buff is a lot weaker as of a few patches ago, which make's skarner's Q shine. skarner is a beast ganker bot and top lane at all stages of the early game
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Off the top of my head- better gankers (pre 6) than skarner-
Udyr, Maokai, Alistar, Volibear, Singed, Lee Sin, Shaco, Rammus, J4, Malph, Olaf, GP.
To me, he is about Shyvana level.
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No dps Skarner is just boring. Buy damage and kill shit imoimo. Carry Skarner is scary.
Btw can Skarner be run top?
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On March 06 2012 05:12 anmolsinghmzn2009 wrote:
No dps Skarner is just boring. Buy damage and kill shit imoimo. Carry Skarner is scary.
Btw can Skarner be run top?
Yes.
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On March 06 2012 05:12 anmolsinghmzn2009 wrote:
No dps Skarner is just boring. Buy damage and kill shit imoimo. Carry Skarner is scary.
Btw can Skarner be run top?
yes. He's around the middle of the pack, has about as many bad matchups as good ones as far as i can tell.
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You think pre-6 malph does anything in ganks? o.O udyr isn't exactly better than him either. 1 second stun is so small.
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On March 06 2012 05:12 Two_DoWn wrote:
Off the top of my head- better gankers (pre 6) than skarner-
Udyr, Maokai, Alistar, Volibear, Singed, Lee Sin, Shaco, Rammus, J4, Malph, Olaf, GP.
To me, he is about Shyvana level.
I don't see how Udyr and Malphite are better pre-6 gankers than Skarner.
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On March 06 2012 05:28 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2012 05:12 Two_DoWn wrote:
Off the top of my head- better gankers (pre 6) than skarner-
Udyr, Maokai, Alistar, Volibear, Singed, Lee Sin, Shaco, Rammus, J4, Malph, Olaf, GP.
To me, he is about Shyvana level. I don't see how Udyr and Malphite are better pre-6 gankers than Skarner.
Udyr can stun, flash stun. Only 1 second but still a stun.
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On March 06 2012 05:28 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2012 05:12 Two_DoWn wrote:
Off the top of my head- better gankers (pre 6) than skarner-
Udyr, Maokai, Alistar, Volibear, Singed, Lee Sin, Shaco, Rammus, J4, Malph, Olaf, GP.
To me, he is about Shyvana level. I don't see how Udyr and Malphite are better pre-6 gankers than Skarner.
Udyr has a speed boost, stun, and more than enough damage.
You may be right on malph, but then again, he has a ranged slow that gives him a boost. He at least has an easier time getting to enemy champions than skarner does, which means that he is going to be able to at least exert some pressure in situations where skarner wont be able to excert any.
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I think it is important to look at the entire "Job" of the jungler before one can make any judgement upon the related strength when comparing junglers. Now I am by no definition of the word a Pro player, but as a casual player over the past year and a half, 1000+ games played, its safe to say, I have an idea of what would make a good jungler.
The jungler's jobs include securing buffs (both sets of them), saving towers, holding lanes for team mates who died/need to buy, and ganking exposed lanes.
So the best junglers in the game would be ones who can 1 shot tanks, and clear 20+ minions in one move. Ok now realistically, the best junglers would be very bursty, able to clear minions from under the towers efficiently, + some tankyness for holding buff aggro/ being able to escape when caught in your own/enemy jungle.
Being a team game your jungler is going to want to have synergy in every lane. Basically I think its best (for simplicity's sake) to just look for either the jungler to bring some hard cc in his kit or every lane needs a hard low cd hard cc in their kit.
so if we take the above into account, lets look at a few junglers and what they're bringing in their kits to accomplish the above.
Lee Sin- He's a beast. He brings a bursty gap closer and a slow on the gank, if you have a ward and w off cd its like having flash all the time for escaping. He has some AOE for clearing out minions from under the tower, but isn't the best at it.
Udyr- Hard as hell to catch him, brings cc to the gank, not quite as bursty, but because of the cc you can get away with out being bursty.
Shaco- Brings a fear, albeit hard if not impossible to land consistantly, hard to catch because of decieve, can fear minions under towers to save them, decent dps for the gank.
Fiddlesticks- Brings CC, Bursty, has no real escape, but fear drain is pretty strong in 1v1s (ie. if you catch him you may die to him).
Now if you're packing hard cc in every lane.
Shyvanna- Clears minions efficiently with aoe/ never needing mana, bursty with the debuff, has a great escape if you feel like wasting your ultimate, but hey if you're caught in their jungle it may just save your life, and speed boost is pretty good escape even with no ult.
Tryn- Good luck diving him while he's protecting a tower, has an escape, i guess crits=occasionally bursty when lucky?
Just some food for the discussion.
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Do you consider certain champions more reliant on summoner spells than others, or do spells serve the same role for every champion? I find myself never wanting to pick Galio/Blitz without flash, Mord/Garen without ignite, etc, and other champs (Mundo being who I'm specifically talking about here) I feel like I really don't care which summoners I have at all. I mean, cleanse/ghost/heal are good sure but I've many times gone promote clarity and not felt lacking in the game.
Do you agree that there are just some champions that summoners don't play much of a role at all? Or a minimal role?
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On March 06 2012 05:26 Slayer91 wrote:
You think pre-6 malph does anything in ganks? o.O udyr isn't exactly better than him either. 1 second stun is so small.
If you think 1sec stun every 6s is bad, i don't really know what's good. This ain"t dota, there's no 6sec stun to compare to. x)
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On March 06 2012 05:34 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2012 05:28 Seuss wrote:On March 06 2012 05:12 Two_DoWn wrote:
Off the top of my head- better gankers (pre 6) than skarner-
Udyr, Maokai, Alistar, Volibear, Singed, Lee Sin, Shaco, Rammus, J4, Malph, Olaf, GP.
To me, he is about Shyvana level. I don't see how Udyr and Malphite are better pre-6 gankers than Skarner. Udyr has a speed boost, stun, and more than enough damage. You may be right on malph, but then again, he has a ranged slow that gives him a boost. He at least has an easier time getting to enemy champions than skarner does, which means that he is going to be able to at least exert some pressure in situations where skarner wont be able to excert any.
I don't find a list of three attributes a compelling argument, particularly when two of those attributes are arguably shared between the two champions being compared. Moreover, a 1 second stun every 6 seconds is arguably not as strong a ganking tool as a 25%+ permanent slow. To make your case you need to be much more explicit.
Regarding Malphite the effectiveness of his Q is diminished significantly by the projectile delay and the cast animation. In addition he can't cast it on targets he can't see, so if an enemy runs into an unwarded/CV'd bush he has no method to close the gap. Finally, there's not a whole lot he can do once the gap is closed as his single target damage is fairly minimal. He's much scarier on paper than he is in practice, until he has his ult.
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On March 06 2012 05:34 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2012 05:28 Seuss wrote:On March 06 2012 05:12 Two_DoWn wrote:
Off the top of my head- better gankers (pre 6) than skarner-
Udyr, Maokai, Alistar, Volibear, Singed, Lee Sin, Shaco, Rammus, J4, Malph, Olaf, GP.
To me, he is about Shyvana level. I don't see how Udyr and Malphite are better pre-6 gankers than Skarner. Udyr has a speed boost, stun, and more than enough damage. You may be right on malph, but then again, he has a ranged slow that gives him a boost. He at least has an easier time getting to enemy champions than skarner does, which means that he is going to be able to at least exert some pressure in situations where skarner wont be able to excert any.
1 second stun is less effective than perma slow in a lot of situations. He also has a bigger speed boost which you seem to be ignoring..
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how is no one challenging the point "philo is useless if it doesnt allow you to spam your spells". as if mana is this binary function of either it or not. philo gives insanity stats and pays for itself. extra mp5 is extra spells, either increased clear speed or better ganks.
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My thought process on Udyr:
In the case where someone is overextended enough to make permaslow relevant: a 1 second stun is also going to be enough to secure the kill, especially when you factor in the damage that Udyr is capable of putting out (in either tiger or pheonix).
In the case where someone ISNT that overextended: stun is strictly better than permaslow because you have the opportunity to get a kill in that 1 second window that you do not have with a permaslow simply because of the shorter distance to safety.
Basically, in any case where a permaslow is relevant, then the stun is just as good, while in cases where a stun relevant a permaslow is unable to compete.
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That's just not true though, especailly when if you flash away and have skarner slow you can still catch them, but you can eat a stun and then flash away and get away if udyr doesn't have flash.
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EPT
