EPT[Patch 1.0.0.135: Fiora] General Discussion - Page 40
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Same rules apply, per usual. Please use the appropriate threads (QQ, Brag, Champion, etc) whenever appropriate. Keep the resident Banling content. Thanks. Happy Gaming. | ||
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Tooplark
United States3977 Posts
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Mondeezy
United States1938 Posts
On March 03 2012 08:00 Craton wrote: Uh, nobody takes CV anymore in solo queue because it's largely useless. The only time it gets picked up is in tournaments/scrims and even then only half the time. Just because they can find you once if you take the most predictable route does not somehow make it easy to always know the jungler's position. You get one shot every minute to guess which side of the map they're on and whether they wanted to farm or gank. Regardless of whether or not a support is good enough to guess well (which is rare in and of itself) the fact that revealing your position gives away a LOT more than a few seconds of your time does not change. How exactly is CV useless? Map vision is one of the most important things in this type of game :S | ||
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
On March 03 2012 08:00 Craton wrote: Uh, nobody takes CV anymore in solo queue because it's largely useless. The only time it gets picked up is in tournaments/scrims and even then only half the time. Just because they can find you once if you take the most predictable route does not somehow make it easy to always know the jungler's position. You get one shot every minute to guess which side of the map they're on and whether they wanted to farm or gank. Regardless of whether or not a support is good enough to guess well (which is rare in and of itself) the fact that revealing your position gives away a LOT more than a few seconds of your time does not change. So your arguement is that you shouldn't chunk mid because you can simply exploit bad play? If you are trying to improve shouldn't you make the right play assuming your team/their team are making the right plays as well? Doesn't the pure fact that at the highest level people do it make it right? How does just assuming everyone is bad help you? I don't like your logic. It is like when you trying to get better at brood war... sure you may get chinsy wins by doing the average play, but if you want to improve it is more efficient to copy the pros. To quote Jon Finkel (and Smash's blog): A great card player will be faced with the same scenario 9 times in a row. Each of these 9 times, he’ll make the right play. Every single 1 of these 9 times, he’ll get unlucky and lose. When faced with the same situation a 10th time, without second guessing, he’ll make the right play again. That same play that lost him the last 9 times. And if it causes him to lose for a 10th time, he won’t lose any sleep over it because he’ll still know that the right play is the right play, regardless of the ultimate outcome. Just because their support not making right play doesn't mean you shouldn't either, imo. As for homerun CV timings: 1:50~ usual first buff location (you either know they there or not), 3:30 second buff location, 7:15 first buff, 8:30 second buff. After that pretty well everything warded. By the five minute mark Dragon always warded, and usually top too so you see jungler if he move through those areas to gank/counter jungle. There are windows of "dayum where is teh jungler?" but right after you finish red/blue not one of them. In the times between it is usually light counter jungling/clearing small camps/ganking in which case you have some mysteries to your positioning and the like, but that doesn't get thrown away by shoing up at mid at the 230~ mark. | ||
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arnath
United States1317 Posts
On March 03 2012 06:49 mr_tolkien wrote: Or learn to be a good jungler and balance both depending on the game and teamcomp. Alistar is a pretty good jungler to learn that. Godlike ganks and godlike clears, while being able to build either to carry your team (triforce, youmuu) or to support it (fast Shurelya and aegis). What? I'll give you that Alistar ganks really well but he has fucking terrible clear times unless you just hog blue buff all the time. I would argue that the heroes with good gank/clear time balance are stuff like Maokai, Skarner, and maybe Udyr/Warwick. On March 03 2012 07:50 Seuss wrote: I personally avoid junglers who are weak/impossible without a leash. There are three very good reasons for this:
While you won't run into these situations most games, being prepared for them will can turn that one game out of ten or twenty into a win. If you're trying to learn how to jungle, playing without any kind of pull whatsoever isn't a reasonably realistic situation. It puts you at really low hp during jungle clear which forces you to either a) buy starting items you wouldn't normally like Cloth +5 or b) go back to heal in a situation where you normally wouldn't. I agree that shit happens sometimes but I don't really consider this useful practice. On March 03 2012 07:30 mr_tolkien wrote: lvl7 ? You can solo it lvl5 very easily if you still have your blue buff (minigols route). Nobody expects a 5min solo drake :p Nashor is way harder because he can cc you and stop your drain. EDIT : oops forgot to F5 the page when coming back home after using my mobile browser, my bad. Don't try to solo dragon. Any good enemy is going to figure out that this is happening and come in, kill you/drive you off, and take dragon for free. | ||
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mr_tolkien
France8631 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/YmF30.jpg) | ||
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Cloud
Sexico5880 Posts
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sob3k
United States7572 Posts
On March 03 2012 08:17 Mondeezy wrote: How exactly is CV useless? Map vision is one of the most important things in this type of game :S Its not that its useless or even bad. Its just that in most soloque games heal is better. Heal is ridiculously strong right now after buffs, and the fact that disorganized solo que teams dont take full advantage of the vision granted by CV makes it even less enticing. | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
Second, the nerfs hurt. | ||
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sob3k
United States7572 Posts
On March 03 2012 08:34 mr_tolkien wrote: Not brag. I just wanted to say playing with a support who actually knows how to buy wards is just so good : lulz, thats not normal good support play, thats OMFG WE ARE UP 35 KILLS AND COULD WIN ANYTIME WE WANTED LOL IMMA WARDFUCK THEIR JUNGLE.... | ||
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
On March 03 2012 08:39 sob3k wrote: lulz, thats not normal good support play, thats OMFG WE ARE UP 35 KILLS AND COULD WIN ANYTIME WE WANTED LOL IMMA WARDFUCK THEIR JUNGLE.... Haha, yeah I agree. It unrealistic to expect any more wards than these red dots: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/0gQoE.png) And even then, I'd say each champ should be buying atleast one. | ||
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Mondeezy
United States1938 Posts
On March 03 2012 08:39 Two_DoWn wrote: 2 changes converged to make CV pretty much worthless. First, the new jungle means that picking out where the enemy jungle is is pretty much impossible. Sure, you can pick them out when buff camps are up, but other than that you simply cant follow them the same way you used to be able to follow them. Second, the nerfs hurt. Ah, I see. I wasn't aware it had been nerfed, I only started playing a couple of months ago. Idk, I pick it up whenever I support because while I find heal to be OK for keeping myself up, I'd much rather prevent the situation that caused all the damage from happening in the first place. Sure, you can always ward, but if they're clearing and you need to run into their jungle with your team, or try and see if they're doing baron or w/e, I find it 100000x more safe and helpful to just CV it instead of face-checking. Just my $0.02 though. | ||
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UniversalSnip
9871 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/b7dRr.png) | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
On March 03 2012 08:47 Mondeezy wrote: Ah, I see. I wasn't aware it had been nerfed, I only started playing a couple of months ago. Idk, I pick it up whenever I support because while I find heal to be OK for keeping myself up, I'd much rather prevent the situation that caused all the damage from happening in the first place. Sure, you can always ward, but if they're clearing and you need to run into their jungle with your team, or try and see if they're doing baron or w/e, I find it 100000x more safe and helpful to just CV it instead of face-checking. Just my $0.02 though. The big thing with CV is that now its basically just an expensive facecheck tool or a "shit we dont have baron/dragon warded someone cv" thing. | ||
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Craton
United States17294 Posts
On March 03 2012 08:15 Tooplark wrote: Well, Craton, you're assuming that people will adapt their playstyle to whether or not they can see the enemy jungler. 90% of the time they don't. In my games people absolutely do react to the knowledge of enemy positions, especially that of the jungler. On March 03 2012 08:17 Mondeezy wrote: How exactly is CV useless? Map vision is one of the most important things in this type of game :S Because it's an incredibly long CD with a very short duration. You don't have the ability to coordinate its use effectively in solo queue. The biggest problem is having a good enough support that can actually accurately predict movements, the next problem is having one who can manage their own lane while also watching other lanes for the right moment to cv e.g. as someone runs into a bush during a gank. Additionally, CV is useless in a bot lane fight so when the enemy team takes combat summoners they're at an advantage in any skirmish and have an extra combat summoner for a teamfight. Usually it's heal that gets taken rather than CV since flash is very necessary for many supports/enemy comps, but if not heal (e.g. AD takes it), then it's ignite/exhaust. CV is only useful in a teamfight where it lets you get shots you'd otherwise miss due to losing vision. The main advantage of CV is being able to check an objective safely so that you have a window of time to react (either to go and stop them doing it or to go ward while nobody is there), which are both things that require a degree of coordination. There's also other cases of e.g. CVing a tower so you can counter jungle from behind, but they also require coordination. It's hard to get someone you don't know to do something quickly and have your team react promptly and properly to that. In a premade, it's as simple as saying CV baron and then group to ward it. On March 03 2012 08:18 iCanada wrote: How does just assuming everyone is bad help you? You do realize I'm the one actually basing my post on what good players actually do, right? I'm a realist based on my own games and the games I watch on stream. There's a huge difference between solo queue, even with good players, and premade games. On March 03 2012 08:18 iCanada wrote: So your arguement is that you shouldn't chunk mid because you can simply exploit bad play? THIS is you assuming people are bad. You think you can run into mid and get "free damage" with no consequences when there are enormous repercussions to showing your position on a whim. GOOD players DO respond to seeing the jungler derp around in mid with no chance of a kill and little chance of actual damage. As for homerun CV timings: 1:50~ usual first buff location (you either know they there or not), 3:30 second buff location, 7:15 first buff, 8:30 second buff. After that pretty well everything warded. By the five minute mark Dragon always warded, and usually top too so you see jungler if he move through those areas to gank/counter jungle. Except that it's just redundant information in most cases. You know they're almost certainly in that area, so CV just tells you what you already know is probable. It's like CVing the river after someone runs through a ward. Sure, it's useful to know that the jungler is late to a buff because they might be ganking, but that doesn't change CV from being incredibly weak in disorganized play. Your solo queue team isn't going to be able to group up and go contest that red/blue because your CV spotted him being late to the party. There's a reason CV is taken in premade games and not in solo queue. | ||
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sob3k
United States7572 Posts
Blitz pull, popup, nautilus snare, naut ult stun, 40% slow, pull them again | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
On March 03 2012 08:50 UniversalSnip wrote: i made a word cloud for this thread [img]pretty picture I like how my sig showed up in there. | ||
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arnath
United States1317 Posts
On March 03 2012 08:50 Two_DoWn wrote: The big thing with CV is that now its basically just an expensive facecheck tool or a "shit we dont have baron/dragon warded someone cv" thing. I think the biggest impact of having CV is at level 1, before creeps spawn. Knowing where the enemy team is/is not can be really helpful for deciding where to go. Unrelatedly, it's funny to me that "Shikyo" has been said often enough to make it into the word cloud. | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On March 03 2012 08:50 UniversalSnip wrote: i made a word cloud for this thread too good | ||
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UniversalSnip
9871 Posts
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
On March 03 2012 08:55 UniversalSnip wrote: i was wondering where that came from. I tried to eliminate everything that was repeating without being content (except user names) but didn't realize that was from a sig. Yar, that would explain why Two was there but I couldnt find DoWn. I couldnt figure out where whore came from either till I realized it was my sig. I especially like how the most said words are "Like get damage: REALLY" | ||
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